Everyone who is not affiliated with Islam, or Judeo-Christianity is considered to be a pagan or a heathen. Pagan is a term used with such disdain, dog sh** gets better reviews. Heathen is even worse. How could their one God(s) be the only one? Are the rest of humanity doomed to go to their version of hell? Control! That's the problem, if you don't do as they say, you're F#@&*%. If God exists, I don't think he created us to be F#@&*% and go to hell.

The problem is the mind. When Christians, and everyone else are working out of their hearts, and not thinking things to death, life is pretty good. When we feel, we are with the Spirit. It is not possible to use language and be accurate, because each listener or reader interprets the words differently. But if we both feel Love, in it's highest form aren't we closer than if we have a conversation?

And think about it. How many people have ever existed? Of those, how many have been/are Christian? Of those, how many are REAL Christians who supposedly will go to heaven?

Now, is God doing to damn all the rest? Isn't God bigger than that?

My main beef with many Christians is their mindset. They may or may not be devout Christians but either way, they are in it for selfish reasons. Be good and believe in Christ so that you may go to Heaven. Don't do bad things so that you don't go to Hell.

Well, what if Heaven wasn't the "prize" at the end of your journey? Would you still be (or claim to be) devout Christians?

What if Jesus told us to believe in Him and that He died for our sins because that is what is True... AND, if you do that, you will certainly spend all of eternity suffering in the depths of Hell? Or you can shun Jesus and shun God and go frolic in Heaven. Show Him your ultimate love by sacrificing your soul for all of Eternity.

How many so-called "Christians" would subject themselves to Eternal Damnation for the Love of their Father?

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Originally Posted by inthebox

As to arguing about "scientific proof" - evidence is there to freely decide.
That is why faith is the ultimate factor.

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I wondered if you would join in on this thread. :) You're right - it comes down to faith. Earlier in this thread it was mentioned to (pretty much) look around and one can see god; but that implies having faith. The "proofs" mentioned in the link I referenced are only "proof" if you then apply faith. To believe in a god, one must have faith.

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If "science" could have definitive proof of "god" in a box, or underneath a microscope, or reproducible by some lab experiment, what kind of "god" would that be ?

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An omnipotent one? :D If god can do anything, why CAN'T he prove himself using the scientific method? He controls everything anyway, so why not give someone the knowledge of some experiment to "prove god" and every time that experiment is performed, you get the same result? Then god IS proven using the scientific method, but only because he's allowing himself to be proven. Or are you forgetting that god can do whatever he wants, so if he wants to be proven by the scientific method, he can be? ;)

Or perhaps god would be one who wants everyone to believe because he wants everyone to be saved, and will do what it takes for them to believe, instead of sending muddled messages?

Stay with me here; lots of people use the parent/child analogy when describing god/people, so I'm going to do the same (put on your humor hat, please!)

We tell our children things in clear terms so they know what we want of them. We don't give them round about answers or commands; we don't say, "it would be nice if the dishwasher was empty", we say, "go empty the dishwasher".

So let's say you're my parent, and I'm about to stab my brother in the eye with a hat pin. MOST people don't do such a thing, but some people do. I'm going to do it unless you tell me, in clear, uncertain terms to NOT stab my brother in the eye. Instead of saying "Don't stab your brother in the eye!" (clear, uncertain terms), you say, "It's good to be nice to people" (rather ambiguous). So I stab my brother in the eye, and you get mad. I continue to go about stabbing people in the eye, because you just won't tell me not to. You KNOW what you need to say, but for whatever reason, you won't do it. Then, you punish me for it. Is this how we teach our children?

Jillian, while your humor is not lost on me and even though I have NO idea what a hat pin is, I will get to the point...

Those types of arguments against the validity of "God" only work if we think of God as some long, gray-haired old man sitting in a chair up in the clouds pulling strings.

Our humanization of God is, I believe, one of THE biggest deterrents in the belief in God.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

We tell our children things in clear terms so they know what we want of them. We don't give them round about answers or commands; we don't say, "it would be nice if the dishwasher was empty", we say, "go empty the dishwasher".

So let's say you're my parent, and I'm about to stab my brother in the eye with a hat pin. MOST people don't do such a thing, but some people do. I'm going to do it unless you tell me, in clear, uncertain terms to NOT stab my brother in the eye. So I stab my brother in the eye, and you get mad. I continue to go about stabbing people in the eye, because you just won't tell me not to. You KNOW what you need to say, but for whatever reason, you won't do it. Then, you punish me for it. Is this how we teach our children?

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You've just summed up the lesson in the Old Testament, except God DID tell His people not to stab their brother in the eye. And He punished them when they did.

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Instead of saying "Don't stab your brother in the eye!" (clear, uncertain terms), you say, "It's good to be nice to people" (rather ambiguous).

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You've just summed up the lesson in the New Testament: love one another.

Parents teach their young children the "don't"s (and punish them when the children "don't") with the hope that, once the children mature, they will understand that "it's good to be nice to people."

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And think about it. How many people have ever existed? Of those, how many have been/are Christian? Of those, how many are REAL Christians who supposedly will go to heaven?

Now, is God doing to damn all the rest? Isn't God bigger than that?

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God doesn't damn anyone. Anyone going to hell wants to be there. No one says only the Christian goes to heaven. Abraham and Moses went to heaven and they never knew Jesus. Not the Jesus as flesh and blood anyway. I really encourage people to stop bashing the Christian and learn more about the Christ. Stop shooting the messenger and find out about the message. At least the Christian message offers something. The atheist message offers nothing because if there is no God, then we are all nothing and life is meaningless.

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Originally Posted by veritas

God doesn't damn anyone. Anyone going to hell wants to be there. No one says only the Christian goes to heaven.

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That's not what most Christian churches teach, especially the evangelical ones.

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Originally Posted by veritas

The atheist message offers nothing because if there is no God, then we are all nothing and life is meaningless.

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That demonstrates you don't know anything about atheists. I don't think life is meaningless, or that we are all nothing. I also don't think we are the most special beings in the universe. NONE of the atheists I know feel that way.

I live for this world, for the here and now. I live for making my future, the future of my family, of my loved ones a better place. It matters to me what kind of world we will have in 200 years because loved ones of mine (their descendents, rather) will be here, and I want them to enjoy it. It doesn't matter to me that I'll never know they enjoy it, I'm happy knowing that I've contributed to making the world a better place. I live for making a name for myself so I won't be forgotten once I'm dead, for leaving something of value behind. Life without god is not meaningless, not at all; it becomes MORE meaningful because it's all you have.

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Originally Posted by DrJizzle

My main beef with many Christians is their mindset. They may or may not be devout Christians but either way, they are in it for selfish reasons. Be good and believe in Christ so that you may go to Heaven. Dont do bad things so that you dont go to Hell.

Well, what if Heaven wasnt the "prize" at the end of your journey? Would you still be (or claim to be) devout Christians?

What if Jesus told us to believe in Him and that He died for our sins because that is what is True... AND, if you do that, you will certainly spend all of eternity suffering in the depths of Hell?? Or you can shun Jesus and shun God and go frolic in Heaven. Show Him your ultimate love by sacrificing your soul for all of Eternity.

How many so-called "Christians" would subject themselves to Eternal Damnation for the Love of their Father?

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That's intelligent, Dr. Just broad brush every Christian in the world as selfish. Jesus said to deny yourself and take up your cross, bare each others burdens. Think of others as better than yourself. That sounds real selfish.

Please, go down to your local church and hang out there for a while. Look around for all the volunteers that keep that church running day-in and day-out. Find the fulltime engineer who also has a talent for music who is sacrificing his free time and family time to rehearse 2x/wk and play at all three church services, one on Saturday and two on Sunday. Be sure to look for the group of guys that take the time to visit the elderly lady at the old folks home who has no family and gets no visitors outside of those at your local church.

Please guys, I love you all but please make a real effort to understand God and those who choose to follow him. For the Christian, the purpose of life is to know God. To know God and to worship Him. Jesus came to earth as God Himself to communicate a simple message to us. Love God, Love your neighbor like you love yourself. I'm just not seeing the selfish message here.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

That's not what most Christian churches teach, especially the evangelical ones.

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What I say is true. Go to one please and find out. I could talk until I'm blue in the face but the only way you'll really know is to go. You don't have to accept anything... just go.

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Originally Posted by DrJizzle

jillian, while your humor is not lost on me and even tho i have NO idea what a hat pin is, I will get to the point...

Those types of arguments against the validity of "God" only work if we think of God as some long, gray-haired old man sitting in a chair up in the clouds pulling strings.

Our humanization of God is, I believe, one of THE biggest deterrents in the belief in God.

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This is a hat pin: hat pin - Google Image Search

I agree that argument only works if god is the biblical god; if god is the deist god, my argument fails on all levels. But we're talking (in this thread) about Christianity and the bible god.

The humanization of god is a big deterrent; I've never given much thought to deism, but if I were to believe in the existence of a god, it would probably be one of that sort. Still doesn't make my brain go, "yeah, that works" though! :)

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Originally Posted by veritas

Love God, Love your neighbor like you love yourself.

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I've hung out in churches since before I was born. The Christian believes he already has heaven in his pocket. No effort or good living is required to assure it. It's a no brainer. Jesus did all the work for the heaven thing.

The Christian's only response is to thank God by loving Him and loving others.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

That demonstrates you don't know anything about atheists. I don't think life is meaningless, or that we are all nothing. I also don't think we are the most special beings in the universe. NONE of the atheists I know feel that way.

I live for this world, for the here and now. I live for making my future, the future of my family, of my loved ones a better place. It matters to me what kind of world we will have in 200 years because loved ones of mine (their descendents, rather) will be here, and I want them to enjoy it. It doesn't matter to me that I'll never know they enjoy it, I'm happy knowing that I've contributed to making the world a better place. I live for making a name for myself so I won't be forgotten once I'm dead, for leaving something of value behind. Life without god is not meaningless, not at all; it becomes MORE meaningful because it's all you have.

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With Love and Respect,
I wasn't talking about what you think or any particular atheist thinks. I am talking about what atheism means when you follow it to it's logical conclusion. What I want to know is what objective meaning is there if I am an atheist? I'm talking objective meaning, not your subjective feeling about what your life means. Is there any real object meaning to life, a meaning that is true regardless if anyone believes it or if no one believes it. That's object meaning.

Without God, there is no objective meaning or value.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You've just summed up the lesson in the Old Testament, except God DID tell His people not to stab their brother in the eye. And He punished them when they did.

You've just summed up the lesson in the New Testament: love one another.

Parents teach their young children the "don't"s (and punish them when the children "don't") with the hope that, once the children mature, they will understand that "it's good to be nice to people."

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I think you missed the point of the analogy... Yes, those are the lessons in the Old and New Testaments, and according to the Bible, at SOME point god came down and told people, "don't stab your brother in the eye". My analogy was not intended to be taken on a mass level, but rather on a personal level. I'm doing something bad (being an atheist), and god, since he's all knowing, knows I'm doing this, and knows what it would take for me to stop. He's decided instead of telling me himself to stop, to tell me in a round about way (Christians telling me, mostly) that I should stop.

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Originally Posted by veritas

What I say is true. Go to one please and find out. I could talk until I'm blue in the face but the only way you'll really know is to go. You don't have to accept anything...just go.

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Sorry, I diagree. The fundamentalist/evangelical churches teach that, if you're not a Christian and don't believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior, you are destined for hell, however that is defined.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

I think you missed the point of the analogy... Yes, those are the lessons in the Old and New Testaments, and according to the Bible, at SOME point god came down and told people, "don't stab your brother in the eye". My analogy was not intended to be taken on a mass level, but rather on a personal level. I'm doing something bad (being an atheist), and god, since he's all knowing, knows I'm doing this, and knows what it would take for me to stop. He's decided instead of telling me himself to stop, to tell me in a round about way (Christians telling me, mostly) that I should stop.

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I got your analogy but just found it very interesting that, in your examples, you gave the message of the two testaments.

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Originally Posted by veritas

With Love and Respect,
I wasn't talking about what you think or any particular atheist thinks. I am talking about what atheism means when you follow it to it's logical conclusion. What I want to know is what objective meaning is there if I am an atheist? I'm talking objective meaning, not your subjective feeling about what your life means. Is there any real object meaning to life, a meaning that is true regardless if anyone believes it or if no one believes it. That's object meaning.

Without God, there is no objective meaning or value.

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Read my last line again:

Life without god is not meaningless, not at all; it becomes MORE meaningful because it's all you have.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I got your analogy but just found it very interesting that, in your examples, you gave the message of the two testaments.

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D'OH! I should have know you'd have gotten it - sorry!

Sorry! :o

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Life without god is not meaningless, not at all; it becomes MORE meaningful because it's all you have.

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And I'm not so sure you are as godless as you think you are, based on the description of how you live your life in joy and love.