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-   -   Did Mary have to be Sinless for Jesus to be born sinless? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=457993)

  • Mar 22, 2010, 04:18 PM
    JoeCanada76

    Well what I tell people...

    Now that I have you puzzled. I am born and raised Catholic. There are many denominations that I seen and taken part in. It does not matter what denomination I have been in, I do not think everyone or any church or denomination has it 100 percent right.

    So I still go to church, catholic, Anglican, baptist, pentecostal , etc.. But my I do not believe in any one denomination being completely right because all of them are man led.

    So for me, My personal relationship with God is most important.. Jesus is what leads me. The bible, the blue print of our lives is what I do my best to live by.

    That is what defines me. Not what church I go to, or what denomination I go to. It is about me having a relationship with God, not the church per say.

    Puzzled anymore, or does that almost explain where I am with churches in general.
  • Mar 22, 2010, 04:19 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    AND in fairness it isn't just the Catholic church that doesn't encourage reading of the Bible either. I have visited other churches and sat in amazement at what they taught.

    Christian Science: The First Reader reads passages from Mary Baker Eddy (their founder). The Second Reader reads coordinating passages from the Bible.
  • Mar 22, 2010, 04:23 PM
    elscarta
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 450donn View Post
    Again, for the record, all your claims are worthless in light of
    MK 3:31, MK 3:35, and again in JN 7:5.
    ALL are references to Jesus brothers and sisters.
    Why is it so hard to understand the word of God?

    450donn, would you be so kind as to name all of the "biological" children of Mary? Please provide scriptural references that show the "biological" connection of those children with Mary.

    As a teacher I have come across many different families in which the children call themselves brothers and sisters these include:

    Biological siblings
    Step brothers and sisters
    Half brothers and sisters (on the father's side)
    Half brothers and sisters (on the mother's side)
    Step brothers and sisters (living with their step-parent and the step parent's new spouse)

    And most of the combinations of the above!
  • Mar 22, 2010, 04:28 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jesushelper76 View Post
    So I still go to church, catholic, Anglican, baptist, pentecostal , etc.

    I think that would be a great thing for all of us to do, especially as we are raising families. We were very secluded in our German Lutheran community (Yes, the whole town of 500 was German Lutheran!), and it would have done us good to look beyond our own noses. I applaud you, my friend!

    Quote:

    per say
    As your cyber auntie, I will feel free to correct you and everyone else who doesn't know: the correct spelling is per se. It's Latin and literally means "by/in itself" -- and is added when one wants to say "so to speak."
  • Mar 22, 2010, 04:32 PM
    classyT

    I don't get all the hoopla about Firstborn... it means... the first child born.

    Take a look at the 10th plague in Egypt: And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

    The only way to escape death was to put the blood of a lamb on the doorposts of your house. The death angel would PASSOVER where he saw the blood. So Why did Moses bother doing it? If firstborn meant ONLY child lets think about it... MOSES had two sons.. he had a brother and a sister ( aaron and Miriam) and his wife was one of Jethro's seven daughters so SHE wasn't a only child. So?? Why was his family in danger? Because firstborn means just that... it doesn't mean only child.
  • Mar 22, 2010, 04:38 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Because firstborn means just that...it doesn't mean only child.

    Right -- once you know there are other children. But if there is only one child and no others, do you continue to call that child "firstborn"?
  • Mar 22, 2010, 05:27 PM
    elscarta
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    I don't get all the hoopla about Firstborn... it means... the first child born.

    Quote:

    Because firstborn means just that... it doesn't mean only child.
    Please do not jump into a discussion at the end without reading ALL of the posts regarding it. If you bothered to read all my posts regarding this you would realise that you also have done what Wondergirl did, that is reversed the order of the words and then start debating the wrong topic!

    An only child is still the firstborn in a family of one! No one has ever tried to prove that the firstborn in a family must be an only child! That is just ridiculous!

    Or do you think that in the time of Moses, families with only one child said to Moses "We don't care if God will kill all the firstborn, we have an only child, NOT a firstborn, so this doesn't concern us!"?
  • Mar 22, 2010, 05:36 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jesushelper76 View Post
    I am a catholic and I do believe in the bible. Although I do also believe many people Catholics are misled. Catholics are not encouraged to pick up a bible and study for themselves. There are no bibles in catholic churches that I have been too. They teach what they want to teach, there are lots of traditions and etc... that are not biblical based which is very misleading.

    I have been to many different denominations and churches growing up and still visiting other churches and will say that there are other denominations out there that clearly teach straight from the bible and encourage study of the bible, unlike the Catholic church.

    Jh there is a great deal of difference between believing in the Bible and believing the Bible. The Bible says that religious people nullify the word of God with their traditions. You say you have visited other denominations and can see the difference. What then are you? One who hopes to reform his church?

    There is great inconsistency in saying you are a catholic and saying they are misleading in the base of their teaching. The Church will not save you, but Jesus Christ might.

    The greatest inconsistency is saying that they have a mandate because of some supposed association with Peter. They keep making the point they are the successors to Peter and yet we don't hear them make the same claims about Paul. All I can say is I think Peter would be appalled by what the Church has become and so would Paul
  • Mar 22, 2010, 05:39 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by elscarta View Post
    Or do you think that in the time of Moses, families with only one child said to Moses "We don't care if God will kill all the firstborn, we have an only child, NOT a firstborn, so this doesn't concern us!"?

    People during the time of Moses talked about a firstborn because it was the first child born, and they expected more children or more children had already been born. Couples in those times did not plan to have only one child. That was unheard of, a tragedy. They expected to have a big family.

    When all firstborns died, that just happened to include onlyborns.
  • Mar 22, 2010, 07:30 PM
    450donn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by elscarta View Post
    450donn, would you be so kind as to name all of the "biological" children of Mary? Please provide scriptural references that show the "biological" connection of those children with Mary.

    As a teacher I have come across many different families in which the children call themselves brothers and sisters these include:

    biological siblings
    step brothers and sisters
    half brothers and sisters (on the father's side)
    half brothers and sisters (on the mother's side)
    step brothers and sisters (living with their step-parent and the step parent's new spouse)

    and most of the combinations of the above!

    Bibleinfo.com®
    PO Box 2525
    Newbury Park, CA 91319
    United States of America

    Four men—James, Joses, Simon, and Judas—are mentioned as the brothers of Jesus. (See Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3.) There has been much discussion through the centuries as to the exact relationship of these men to Jesus. Three principal views have been advanced: (1) that they were Jesus' actual brothers, that is, half brothers, sons of Joseph and Mary (and therefore younger than Jesus); (2) that they were His stepbrothers, that is, children of Joseph by a previous marriage (and thus all older than He and not His blood relatives at all); (3) that they were the cousins of Jesus on the mother's side, according to some, or on Joseph's side, according to others. Those who hold the first view argue that this is the most natural way to understand the various references to these brothers; also that this is the most obvious intent of Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7. Those who hold the second view argue that Oriental family ethics would not permit younger brothers to taunt or otherwise meddle with an older brother as Jesus' brothers taunted Him (see Mark 3:31; John 7:3-4). They point out further that the fact that Jesus left His mother in the care of the apostle John (John 19:26-27) rather than with one of His brothers strongly implies that Mary had no other children. The view that these brothers were the cousins of Jesus on Joseph's side is based on pure conjecture. That they were cousins on Mary's side is based on the unproved identity of "Mary, the wife of Cleophus" with the sister of Mary (John 19:25; Mark 15:40), and on the unproved identity of "Clopas" with Alphaeus (Mark 3:18). Jesus' brothers are mentioned as accompanying Jesus and his mother to Capernaum after the marriage at Cana (John 2:12). Later Mary and these brothers are recorded as seeking an audience with Jesus (Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21). Toward the end of Jesus' ministry, His brethren are mentioned as urging Jesus to prove His Messiahship, which they themselves doubted (John 7:3-5). That they were later converted is clear, for they are described in Acts as uniting with the disciples and others in "prayer and supplication" prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:13-14). Paul implies that they were all married (1 Corinthians 9:5). Many commentators hold that the author of the epistle of Jude, who identifies himself as the "brother of James," was one of these brothers (Jude 1). It is also generally believed that the leader of the church at Jerusalem was James, the Lord's brother (see Acts 12:17; 15:13). This seems to be confirmed by Paul's reference to his visit to Jerusalem, in which he states that he saw only Peter, and "James, the Lord's brother" (Galatians 1:18-19).
  • Mar 22, 2010, 08:55 PM
    JoeT777
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 450donn View Post
    Four men—James, Joses, Simon, and Judas—are mentioned as the brothers of Jesus. (See Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3.) There has been much discussion through the centuries as to the exact relationship of these men to Jesus. Three principal views have been advanced: (1) that they were Jesus' actual brothers, that is, half brothers, sons of Joseph and Mary (and therefore younger than Jesus); (2) that they were His stepbrothers, that is, children of Joseph by a previous marriage (and thus all older than He and not His blood relatives at all); (3) that they were the cousins of Jesus on the mother's side, according to some, or on Joseph's side, according to others. Those who hold the first view argue that this is the most natural way to understand the various references to these brothers; also that this is the most obvious intent of Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7. Those who hold the second view argue that Oriental family ethics would not permit younger brothers to taunt or otherwise meddle with an older brother as Jesus' brothers taunted Him (see Mark 3:31; John 7:3-4). They point out further that the fact that Jesus left His mother in the care of the apostle John (John 19:26-27) rather than with one of His brothers strongly implies that Mary had no other children. The view that these brothers were the cousins of Jesus on Joseph's side is based on pure conjecture. That they were cousins on Mary's side is based on the unproved identity of "Mary, the wife of Cleophus" with the sister of Mary (John 19:25; Mark 15:40), and on the unproved identity of "Clopas" with Alphaeus (Mark 3:18). Jesus' brothers are mentioned as accompanying Jesus and his mother to Capernaum after the marriage at Cana (John 2:12). Later Mary and these brothers are recorded as seeking an audience with Jesus (Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21). Toward the end of Jesus' ministry, His brethren are mentioned as urging Jesus to prove His Messiahship, which they themselves doubted (John 7:3-5). That they were later converted is clear, for they are described in Acts as uniting with the disciples and others in "prayer and supplication" prior to Pentecost (Acts 1:13-14). Paul implies that they were all married (1 Corinthians 9:5). Many commentators hold that the author of the epistle of Jude, who identifies himself as the "brother of James," was one of these brothers (Jude 1). It is also generally believed that the leader of the church at Jerusalem was James, the Lord's brother (see Acts 12:17; 15:13). This seems to be confirmed by Paul's reference to his visit to Jerusalem, in which he states that he saw only Peter, and "James, the Lord's brother" (Galatians 1:18-19).



    Did you write this? Do you know what plagiarism is? Besides this explanation is more wishful thinking and supposition than an explanation that uses both scripture and Tradition.

    SEE: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Brethren of the Lord CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. James the Less

    JoeT
  • Mar 22, 2010, 09:07 PM
    Wondergirl

    It's from Did Jesus have any brothers and/or sisters? | Bibleinfo.com.

    Bibleinfo.com®
    PO Box 2525
    Newbury Park, CA 91319
    United States of America
  • Mar 22, 2010, 09:16 PM
    JoeCanada76

    Paraclete,

    What am I? Who am I? Where or who do I belong? I belong to God. That simple. We are to gather as Gods people and come together as one. Not be separated as so many denominations today like to separate people in groups of different denominations.

    I BELONG TO GOD. NOT A CHURCH, NOT A DENOMINATION. Although I still consider myself born and raised Catholic. That is where my roots started my only loyalty is to GOD and my Family.

    There is nothing wrong with me enjoying services from other denominations etc...

    It seems to me Paraclete you like to pick at everything and anything.

    I do not need to explain myself to you. I know the bible. I know God, have a personal relationship to God. Honestly that is all that is important.

    Living my life, God guiding me. Serving God in this world for the better of the world.
  • Mar 22, 2010, 09:28 PM
    JoeT777
    Where it's from is beside the point. The point is that it is presented as original work, and it's not.
    If this was an original then the author can explain why:

    • In the New Testament there is no mention of siblings of Jesus, that is "sons" (or "daughters") of Mary of Joseph?

    • Each year at Passover Joseph and Mary took Christ to the Temple as was the custom, on retuning they discovered Jesus was not with them. If Mary had other children they would have been younger than Christ, why weren't they mentioned? What did she do with the other children when she returned for Jesus? Luke 2:41 seqq.

    • If James is his brother then why didn't he state so quite proudly when he wrote his epistle?

    JoeT
  • Mar 22, 2010, 09:38 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post
    Where it's from is beside the point. The point is that it is presented as original work, and it's not.

    You wondered where it was from, so I Googled and found out.
    Quote:

    • In the New Testament there is no mention of siblings of Jesus, that is "sons" (or "daughters") of Mary of Joseph?
    I don't understand this.
    Quote:

    • Each year at Passover Joseph and Mary took Christ to the Temple as was the custom, on retuning they discovered Jesus was not with them. If Mary had other children they would have been younger than Christ, why weren't they mentioned? What did she do with the other children when she returned for Jesus? Luke 2:41 seqq.
    You'll notice the Gospel writers were concise and didn't mention much besides what was important about Jesus. There was no "Joseph tied up the donkey and gave him some hay" or "Mary didn't have enough cloths for diapers, so she bought a stack of them from the innkeeper's wife." Younger children weren't part of the 12-year-old-Jesus-in-the-temple story, and undoubtedly were in the care of a neighbor or relative.
    Quote:

    • If James is his brother then why didn't he state so quite proudly when he wrote his epistle?
    Because it was well known, so why beat a dead horse?
  • Mar 23, 2010, 06:38 AM
    450donn
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post
    Did you write this? Do you know what plagiarism is? Besides this explanation is more wishful thinking and supposition than an explanation that uses both scripture and Tradition.



    JoeT

    Your right I copied it from the source listed above. I have corrected the mistake in my post.
    Sorry.

    Is the same wishful thinking you are quoting your source as?
  • Mar 23, 2010, 06:42 AM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post
    Where it’s from is beside the point. The point is that it is presented as original work, and it’s not.
    If this was an original then the author can explain why:

    • In the New Testament there is no mention of siblings of Jesus, that is "sons" (or "daughters") of Mary of Joseph?

    • Each year at Passover Joseph and Mary took Christ to the Temple as was the custom, on retuning they discovered Jesus was not with them. If Mary had other children they would have been younger than Christ, why weren’t they mentioned? What did she do with the other children when she returned for Jesus? Luke 2:41 seqq.

    • If James is his brother then why didn’t he state so quite proudly when he wrote his epistle?

    JoeT

    JoeT,

    Because the Bible doesn't mention his siblings in the passage in Luke 2:41 means NOTHING. The story wasn't about his siblings... it was about HIM. Intersting though that Mary and Joseph could have gone so far without noticing he wasn't there don't you think? Some people speculate that families went together... cousins, Aunts, Uncles and that is why they didn't notice he wasn't there. They assumed he was with extended family. I don't know... but that certainly would explain where the other kids were... either way, it doesn't matter. The scripture doesn't put that info in because it was about the LORD Jesus. I believe the fact that Mary had no clue of why he was back in the temple makes it pretty clear she didn't get WHO he really WAS nor what he was going to do.. this is why she took his words and pondered what he had said... he was about his father's business.

    We have given you scripture in the gospels when his siblings are mentioned.. you all explain them away... or use your white out...

    AND... Just because James didn't PROUDLY say he was the Lord's brother again means nothing. James understood he had to be saved by him too, maybe he didn't brag about it... maybe everyone KNEW he was the Lord's brother and there was NO REASON to say it... I don't know. BUT I do know had he said it... You would explain THAT away too! The Apostle Paul certainly put it in black and white...

    Galatians 1:19
    New International Version (©1984)
    I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the Lord's brother.


    I don't know what more you want? Why in the WORLD would Paul say such a thing?
  • Mar 23, 2010, 07:12 AM
    450donn

    There is no point in going any further on this subject as those that belong to the RCC are firmly entrenched in the doctrine of their religion and choose to not listen to the truth as found in the Bible. It has been pointed out many many times that Jesus had siblings, but their religion forbids this teaching as it does not fit what the Pope choose to tell the masses.
  • Mar 23, 2010, 08:06 AM
    elscarta
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Galatians 1:19
    New International Version (©1984)
    I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the Lord's brother.

    Galatians 1:19 (New King James Version)
    19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

    This clearly states that James, the Lord's brother, is one of the Apostles but there are only Twelve Apostles of which two were called James.

    Matthew 10:2-4
    2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

    So Jesus' father must have been either Zebedee or Alphaeus! And all this time I thought that Joseph married Mary and was Jesus' earthly father. How did I ever get that wrong!
  • Mar 23, 2010, 08:26 AM
    JoeCanada76

    I think so many people get side tracked and entrenched into matters that do not really matter.

    Who cares if Jesus had brothers or not. Who cares if Mary had other children or not. Which I believe she of course had other children which does not make her a virgin.

    Anyway, the only thing that matters really is that We believe in God, Jesus is son and that we will do his will while living this life.

    That's it. Plain and simple..
  • Mar 23, 2010, 09:04 AM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by elscarta View Post
    Galatians 1:19 (New King James Version)
    19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother.

    This clearly states that James, the Lord's brother, is one of the Apostles but there are only Twelve Apostles of which two were called James.

    Matthew 10:2-4
    2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

    So Jesus' father must have been either Zebedee or Alphaeus! And all this time I thought that Joseph married Mary and was Jesus' earthly father. How did I ever get that wrong!

    Paul wasn't talking about James the son of Zebedee! He was clear... it was James the Lord's brother. There were other APOSTLE"S... Paul was an apostle... gosh I didn't see him in that list in Mathew. Now how did I ever miss THAT? See what I mean.. it is in BLACK and WHITE and you all still explain it away.

    450donn,

    You are right.. I said I was done and then I went right back and argued this.. UGH. Will I ever learn?
  • Mar 23, 2010, 07:24 PM
    elscarta


    Apostle:
    One of the twelve disciples of Christ, specially chosen as his companions and witnesses, and sent forth to preach the gospel. [1913 Webster]

    Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote their gospels years later. They knew how many apostles there were.

    If as you try to claim that there were more that 12 apostles do you suppose Matthew(Matthew 10:2), Mark(Mark 3:14) and Luke(Luke 6:13) would have used the number 12? I think not!

    Matthew was a tax collector, would he make such a glaring error in his count of the apostles? In my opinion
  • Mar 23, 2010, 07:36 PM
    Wondergirl

    There were twelve disciples and more than twelve apostles. Paul was one of the apostles.

    From the online Merriam-Webster dictionary --

    Main Entry: apos·tle
    Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpä-səl\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Old English; Anglo-French apostle & Old English apostol, both from Late Latin apostolus, from Greek apostolos, from apostellein to send away, from apo- + stellein to send
    Date: before 12th century

    1 : one sent on a mission: as a : one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul b : the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group
  • Mar 23, 2010, 08:09 PM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    There were twelve disciples and more than twelve apostles. Paul was one of the apostles.

    from the online Merriam-Webster dictionary --

    Main Entry: apos·tle
    Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpä-səl\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Old English; Anglo-French apostle & Old English apostol, both from Late Latin apostolus, from Greek apostolos, from apostellein to send away, from apo- + stellein to send
    Date: before 12th century

    1 : one sent on a mission: as a : one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul b : the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group

    Wondergirl,

    :) excellent. Paul gets the shaft every time... and now apparently James the Lord's bro does too!
  • Mar 24, 2010, 10:27 PM
    JoeT777
    Funny Brothers

    1. St. Peter, ST. Andrew, St. Simon (called ‘Zelotes’) and St. Philip (4 Apostles):

    St. Peter (a.k.a. Simon, or Cephas) and Andrew were siblings, sons of Jona (Johannes). Philip on the other hand came from the same town but not related by his parents; there may have been some distant family relationship. We know that these are not siblings of Jesus.

    2. St. James & St. John Zebedee(2 Apostles):

    St. James the Greater and St. John — sons of Zebedee and Salome, Matthew 27:56; Mark 15:40; 16:1 St. John knows the high-priest (John 18:16) and is given the care of Mother of Jesus John 19:27.

    St. James the Greater was at the Transfiguration Mark 9:1; Matthew 17:1; Luke 9:28, and the Agony in Gethsemani , Matthew 26:37; Mark 14:33. Martyred around 44 A.D. Acts 12:1-2.

    Their mother was Salome the daughter of the high priest and the pious women who ministered to and ministered Christ (cf. Matthew 27:55, sq.; Mark 15:40; 16:1; Luke 8:2 sq.; 23:55-24:1). It’s Salome that wanted her sons to sit on the right hand of Christ’s throne. (Matthew 20:21).
    None of these can be siblings of Jesus. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. James the Greater

    3. Matthew , Jude and James The Less (3 Apostles):

    Matthew and James, the sons of Alpheus — Matt 10:3; Mark 3:18; Luke 6:15; Acts 1:13. James the Less is the one referred to as ‘brother of the Lord’ and Bishop of the Church of Jerusalem. This can be shown in Gal 1:19 where Paul goes to Jerusalem to see Peter. Peter is not available, he only saw the Bishop of Jerusalem, James the ‘Brother of the Lord’. This James can’t be both the sibling of Jesus and the son of Alpheus now can he?

    Matthew, the son of Alpheus; Mark 2:14; Matthew 9:9 a Galilean who collected taxes at Capharnaum for Herod Antipas. These two are not siblings of Jesus.

    Jude (a.k.a. Thaddeus ) — Jude 1:1. "Brother of James" called so because his brother James was better known than himself in the primitive Church. Luke 6:16; Acts 1:13. Being the brother of James Jude can’t be the sibling of Jesus.

    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Matthew CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. James the Less

    4. James and Joseph (or Joses):

    James, Joseph (or Joses) sons of Cleopas — Mark 15:40; Matthew 27:56 the sons of Cleophas or Clopas (John 19:25). "Maria Cleophæ" is generally translated "Mary the wife of Cleophas." Consequently we can conclude that these two were not siblings of Jesus. SJ Prat, in his book Jesus Christ, suggests that this Mary is the second wife of Cleophas CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Brethren of the Lord

    5. ST. Bartholomew, St. Thomas (2 Apostles):

    St. Bartholomew many think he can be identified as Nathaniel the friend of Philip, John 1:43-51; Matthew 10:3; Mark 3:18; Luke 6:14. St. Thomas we know very little outside the Scriptures. We do know that he is the ‘show me’ Saint. These two Apostles are unrelated to Jesus. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Bartholomew CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Nathanael

    6. Judas Iscariot (1 Apostle):

    Finally, we have Judas, the Apostle that betrayed our Lord. He was the only Apostle that wasn’t from Galilee. Being from the town of ‘Kerioth’ Judas can’t be a sibling of Jesus. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Judas Iscariot

    So, we have 14 men all of whom are called ‘brothers of the Lord’ i.e. the special way that the twelve were referred to, but none of them are siblings of Jesus. More than a few times the term ‘brethren of the Lord’ was used to describe the Twelve Apostles.

    With all these, somewhat complicated, family connections the absence of somebody being called the “son(s) of Mary of Joseph” is now very conspicuous. It takes a long stretch of the imagination to create siblings of Christ – or an ulterior motive.

    “For after all there is no getting away from a fact, and if Jesus had brothers and sisters whose names were known at Nazareth, on what grounds does the Church pay homage to Mary as a virgin?... It will readily be admitted that if anybody in the primitive Church had any chance of passing as the brother of Jesus it was James, called expressly by St. Paul 'the brother of the Lord.' [Galatians i.19.] Now a James heads the list at Nazareth; it is therefore the same James. He is the brother of Joses, and the evangelists know very well who is their mother - a Mary who is certainly not Mary the Mother of Jesus. [Mark xv.40; Matthew xxvii.56.] She was known as 'the mother of James and Joses.' [Joses (Jose) or Joseph, according as it was pronounced.](sic)… If these two are not the children of Mary the Mother of Jesus, then by what right can we ascribe to her Jude and Simon who follow in the list of the brethren of Jesus? Moreover, a very ancient tradition with which we may here supplement the gospels regards Simon, under the form Simeon, as a cousin of Our Lord. [Given by Hegesippus, a historian of the second century, quoted by Eusebius, Hist. Eccl., IV, xxii, 4.] … The whole group simply designates relations [i Corinthians ix.5.], and it is ridiculous to imagine that there were brothers or sisters who remain unknown, if those whom the people of Nazareth mention as the best known were merely cousins.” The Gospel of Jesus Christ. P M-J Lagrange OP. Chapter 3: The Ministry in Galilee. Part VI: Miracles. Encounters with troublesome dispositions. Père M.-J. Lagrange, O.P, The Gospel of Jesus Christ, First published by Burns Oates & Washbourne Ltd 1938

    So, by some accounts on this forum we would have at least James the less, James the little, Joses , Jude and Simon, and Jesus as male siblings along with unnamed sisters; “brothers and sisters all together make too large a number.” (Ibid). The Blessed Mary simply couldn’t have born 14+ children.

    Oh yeah, based on this same literal reading of the Epistles, we’d need to add St. Paul as 'the brother of the Lord' along with others referred to in Scripture as ‘brother’ of Jesus. St. Paul must be the poor brother that "always gets the shaft everytime."

    JoeT
  • Mar 25, 2010, 05:04 PM
    450donn

    In light of my continuing desire to further my walk with Jesus I picked up a book the other day titled “the Search for The twelve Apostles” by William Mcbirnie. While rather deep and clearly written by and for academics I did find it quite interesting in light of the recent discussions about Mary. On page 141 and I quote “The early heresy of Docetism attempted to convince Christians that all sexual intercourse was evil. The later elevation of Mary to the status of demigoddess forced some of those who took this view to invent out of whole cloth the notion that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were perhaps the children of Joseph by a previous marriage. Thus James the Lord becomes James the half brother. However at this point a further contradiction inserts itself. How could James the less be the son of Joseph and also the son of Alphaeus? The answer which apparently has satisfied most of the scholars of the oldest branches of Christianity is to make James the less, a sister of Mary, the mother of Jesus. This reduces James the less to a cousin of Jesus rather than a half brother. One cannot but sympathize with the defense of this point of view under the pressure they were under to preserve the doctrine of perpetual virginity of Mary, the mother of Jesus. But their solution is simply impossible. The purpose of names is to distinguish between children. With the great number of names available to the ancients it would be unlikely that there were tow Marys in the same family. We may be safe, therefore in assuming that James the brother of Jesus was indeed that.”
  • Mar 25, 2010, 05:21 PM
    paraclete
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 450donn View Post
    In light of my continuing desire to further my walk with Jesus I picked up a book the other day titled “the Search for The twelve Apostles” by William Mcbirnie. While rather deep and clearly written by and for academics I did find it quite interesting in light of the recent discussions about Mary. On page 141 and I quote “The early heresy of Docetism attempted to convince Christians that all sexual intercourse was evil. The later elevation of Mary to the status of demigoddess forced some of those who took this view to invent out of whole cloth the notion that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were perhaps the children of Joseph by a previous marriage. Thus James the Lord becomes James the half brother. However at this point a further contradiction inserts itself. How could James the less be the son of Joseph and also the son of Alphaeus? The answer which apparently has satisfied most of the scholars of the oldest branches of Christianity is to make James the less, a sister of Mary, the mother of Jesus. This reduces James the less to a cousin of Jesus rather than a half brother. One cannot but sympathize with the defense of this point of view under the pressure they were under to preserve the doctrine of perpetual virginity of Mary, the mother of Jesus. But their solution is simply impossible. The purpose of names is to distinguish between children. With the great number of names available to the ancients it would be unlikely that there were tow Marys in the same family. We may be safe, therefore in assuming that James the brother of Jesus was indeed that.”

    Don great research but you know you are wasting your time, those tied into the dogma of Mary are not going to believe she had a normal married life with Joseph and bore other children
  • Mar 25, 2010, 08:01 PM
    JoeT777
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 450donn View Post
    In light of my continuing desire to further my walk with Jesus I picked up a book the other day titled “The Search for The twelve Apostles” by William Mcbirnie

    I don’t usually contradict an author, especially when I can’t locate any copy to see under what context the quote is made. However, in this case, since the quote is sufficiently long to infer the context, I can direct my comments at the specific points made within the body quoted.

    Quote:

    On page 141 and I quote “The early heresy of Docetism attempted to convince Christians that all sexual intercourse was evil.
    Docetae (Greek Doketai) is a heretical sect that started around the same time as the Apostles were teaching by word given witness through there teachings (you might think of this as laying the foundation of Holy Tradition). In the proper sense of the word “heresy”, Docetism isn’t quite Christian heresy. It seems that the doctrines came from outside the Church and is the forerunner of Gnosticism. In this form of heresy ‘salvation’ is transcending the flesh and becoming pure spirit, as pure as the ‘supreme spirit’. This isn’t God, but a supper or 1st among all spirits. In conforming to Christian parlance they ran into difficulty with “the Word was made flesh”. Therefore Christ is made by Æon (the supreme spirit) and made a second called Æons. Tertullian describes this sect better than I ever could:
    To all these, however, there opposed himself an Æon who name is Ialdabaoth. He had been conceived by the permixture of a second Æon with inferior Æons; and afterwards, when he had been desirous of forcing his way into the higher regions, had been disabled by the permixture of the gravity of matter with himself to arrive at the higher regions; had been left in the midst, and had extended himself to his full dimensions, and thus had made the sky. Ialdabaoth, however, had descended lower, and had made him seven sons, and had shut from their view the upper regions by self-distension, in order that, since (these) angels could not know what was above, they might think him the sole God. These inferior Virtues and angels, therefore, had made man; and, because he had been originated by weaker and mediocre powers, he lay crawling, worm-like. That Æon, however, out of which Ialdaboath had proceeded, moved to the heart with envy, had injected into man as he lay a certain spark; excited whereby, he was through prudence to grow wise, and be able to understand the things above. Tertullian, Against All Heresies, 2 CHURCH FATHERS: Against All Heresies (Tertullian)
    All of which is to say that Docetism was not a part of the early orthodoxy of the Catholic Church. Starting with Pope Hyginus (137 A.D.) the Church moved against this heresy, as well as the heresies Docetism fostered. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Docetae

    Quote:

    The later elevation of Mary to the status of demigoddess forced some of those who took this view to invent out of whole cloth the notion that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were perhaps the children of Joseph by a previous marriage. Thus James the Lord becomes James the half brother. However at this point a further contradiction inserts itself. How could James the less be the son of Joseph and also the son of Alphaeus?
    While I do agree we have very little to suggest that at least one of the James’s was a step child of Mary. There does exist however pseudographic works that might suggest that Joseph had children by a former wife, but we cannot put any reliance on them. As you’re fond of saying, ‘bible-only’ has the answers. And conspicuously absent from Scripture is the any mention of a previous marriage of any women with Joseph. Further, we do not read anywhere in Scripture the James the son of ‘some woman’ of Joseph. Furthermore, it is more likely, as I’ve discussed in earlier posts, that Joseph lived an ascetic life style prior to the betrothal of Mary to Joseph.

    The real point however, is that Mr. William McBirnie is attributing the perverted beliefs of heretics to the orthodoxy of the Church. The Church has always held that Mary was ever Virgin and the Mother of God. The Church has never held the Blessed Virgin Mary as a ‘demigoddess’ or any other type of goddess.

    Quote:

    The answer which apparently has satisfied most of the scholars of the oldest branches of Christianity is to make James the less, a sister of Mary, the mother of Jesus. This reduces James the less to a cousin of Jesus rather than a half brother. One cannot but sympathize with the defense of this point of view under the pressure they were under to preserve the doctrine of perpetual virginity of Mary, the mother of Jesus. But their solution is simply impossible. The purpose of names is to distinguish between children. With the great number of names available to the ancients it would be unlikely that there were tow Marys in the same family. We may be safe, therefore in assuming that James the brother of Jesus was indeed that.”
    The James of Mark 15:40 is called James the little (where he is called ò mikros "the little", not the "less). There is no half brothers or sisters of Jesus. And if there were, there would need to be a gaggle of them, which would mean that Joseph was indeed very prolific and probably Mary would have been the fourth or fifth wife (Joseph would have had to go through wives as fast as a jack rabbit. It's funny how far afield you’re fanciful imagination can carry you so that you can deny God's miracles in the immaculate Mary. That seems a bit too farfetched for any rational mind. Furthermore, McBirnie merely pronounces his biased assumption without bringing forth any evidence to that effect. It would be very dangerous to accept James as the ‘brother of Jesus as Mr. William McBirnie would suggest. I would suggest that he start writing Tim LaHay type end of the world fiction, his books might be a bit more factual.


    JoeT
  • Mar 25, 2010, 08:10 PM
    450donn

    Joe, you might want to reread the quote. He clearly states what you took a long time to say. He also says that this "The later elevation of Mary to the status of demigoddess forced some of those who took this view to invent out of whole cloth the notion that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were perhaps the children of Joseph by a previous marriage."
    So he is indicating that later religionsthe RCC in an attempt to prove this false teaching are the ones that have twisted the truth into what he says near the end of the quote.Thus James the Lord becomes James the half brother
    But there is no point arguing with you as your church does not allow you to accept the truth as found in the bible does it?
  • Mar 25, 2010, 08:50 PM
    JoeT777
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 450donn View Post
    Joe, you might want to reread the quote. He clearly states what you took a long time to say. He also says that this "The later elevation of Mary to the status of demigoddess forced some of those who took this view to invent out of whole cloth the notion that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were perhaps the children of Joseph by a previous marriage."
    So he is indicating that later religionsthe RCC in an attempt to prove this false teaching are the ones that have twisted the truth into what he says near the end of the quote.Thus James the Lord becomes James the half brother
    But there is no point arguing with you as your church does not allow you to accept the truth as found in the bible does it?


    There are very few of the early Catholic Fathers that took James's as a half brother. In fact if you take the time to read my earlier post, you'll see that all the James's can be accounted for with none of them left to play the role of 'James the half brother'.

    JoeT
  • Mar 25, 2010, 09:09 PM
    Maggie 3
    The way I see it James the son of Joseph and Mary and half brother
    Of Jesus. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirt and James and his
    Brothers and sisters were of Joseph seed. As we read James, not only
    Was he related to the Living Word, but he was a man greatly given to the written Word. James simply considers himself a servant and known
    As a man of tremendous humility.

    Blessings, Maggie 3
  • Mar 26, 2010, 07:38 AM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 450donn View Post
    In light of my continuing desire to further my walk with Jesus I picked up a book the other day titled “the Search for The twelve Apostles” by William Mcbirnie. While rather deep and clearly written by and for academics I did find it quite interesting in light of the recent discussions about Mary. On page 141 and I quote “The early heresy of Docetism attempted to convince Christians that all sexual intercourse was evil. The later elevation of Mary to the status of demigoddess forced some of those who took this view to invent out of whole cloth the notion that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were perhaps the children of Joseph by a previous marriage. Thus James the Lord becomes James the half brother. However at this point a further contradiction inserts itself. How could James the less be the son of Joseph and also the son of Alphaeus? The answer which apparently has satisfied most of the scholars of the oldest branches of Christianity is to make James the less, a sister of Mary, the mother of Jesus. This reduces James the less to a cousin of Jesus rather than a half brother. One cannot but sympathize with the defense of this point of view under the pressure they were under to preserve the doctrine of perpetual virginity of Mary, the mother of Jesus. But their solution is simply impossible. The purpose of names is to distinguish between children. With the great number of names available to the ancients it would be unlikely that there were tow Marys in the same family. We may be safe, therefore in assuming that James the brother of Jesus was indeed that.”

    I never thought otherwise. I think the bible is crystal clear but I guess we humans read what we want to... there are those that twist stuff if it doesn't fit their theology. Personally I don't have a stake in this. If the Lord Jesus was Mary's only child... then so be it. I don't care one way or the other. But that isn't what the Bible records.
  • Mar 26, 2010, 08:34 AM
    galveston

    All of this about Mary never having other children is unrelated to the OP.

    Has the subject been changed because the dogma of the Immaculate Conception cannot be supported by any rational or scriptural process?
  • Mar 26, 2010, 03:10 PM
    JoeCanada76
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    All of this about Mary never having other children is unrelated to the OP.

    Has the subject been changed because the dogma of the Immaculate Conception cannot be supported by any rational or scriptural process?

    Actually it does have everything to do with the op. The subject did not change. It was about Mary being sinless or not. All of it has to do with the op and the questions about Mary.
  • Mar 26, 2010, 04:09 PM
    galveston
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jesushelper76 View Post
    Actually it does have everything to do with the op. The subject did not change. It was about Mary being sinless or not. All of it has to do with the op and the questions about Mary.

    Does that mean you consider marital sex as sinful?
  • Mar 26, 2010, 08:56 PM
    JoeCanada76
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by galveston View Post
    Does that mean you consider marital sex as sinful?

    Never said that.
  • Mar 27, 2010, 09:11 AM
    galveston

    So, then, if Mary did have children by Joseph, that does not diminish her position or respect in the least.
  • Mar 27, 2010, 05:01 PM
    galveston

    Do you believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of the Bible?

    Matt 1:25
    25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. (KJV)

    Do you think the Holy Spirit knows how to express Himself? Why then, did He not stop after the word "NOT"?

    Instead we find the Holy Spirit continuing on with "till she had brought forth her firstborn son:"

    The meaning of this should be clear to anyone who reads it with an open mind.
  • Mar 28, 2010, 06:40 AM
    Fr_Chuck

    Closed, way off track and at least one poster is starting to post untrue catholic info in their catholic hate rants

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