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Indeed! We see all sorts and shapes of people even today. Some diseases (i.e. ricketts) can cause deformities also that could make it appear that you were dealing with a person with a different skeletal structure. There was a show that I saw earlier this week about a disease that alters the skeleton.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
This goes back to some of the original posting. I reference them as beast/animal without communication skills of speech. And that sciene called them apelike men...
I speculate that they lived at the same time frame as the dinosaurs. Making both species years before the 6 day creation @ a time that was before the tremble of the earth which destroyed and made void what was before this earth age.
Have a good day...
Oh yeah I remember seeing a program on that years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
They may have been prehistoric and not knowledgeable as man after Adam and Eve
If they even existed at such a time but I still believe they were man and not ape type creatures.
I believe in the gap theory but I really do not believe that anything that existed from the pre creation was able to survive to the creation time.
Ah yes, but now that adds in many assuptions:Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
- It adds the assumption that there was a gap
- It adds in the assumptions that this apelike beast was based upon (by evolutionist scientists)
- It assumes that dinosaurs existed before the 6 day creation.
And, I might add, though you suggest that this comes from scientific findings, it disagrees with what scientists currently conclude. Scientists currently conclude that apelike creatures first existed about 30millions years ago. while dinosaurs died out about 65 million years ago. If you are attributing the combined footprints to your apelike creatures, it won't fly because the timeframes, according to scientific assumptions, are wrong.
We could also look at the difference between ape and human footprints which I suspect would further hamper your theory.
The straight reading of the Bible regarding creation in 6 days addresses all the points and shows how dinosaurs would exist concurrently with humans.
Yeah I was thinking the ape like foot prints would be different than apes foot prints
I agree too much assumptions when it comes to evolution or ape like man stuff.
Yes I suppose it does from what has been said about the theory. However until this thread, I was not familiar with the gap theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
No, because as I said the existence was destroyed/void. What we have from the distruction is buried remains from the trembled earth. And what appears to be further washed over by water. From what scripture speaks of it was just water the spirit moved over in depth @ the beginning of creation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Yes an earth age before 6 day creationQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Here I can not agree or disagree, the scientic facts are where I fail to follow details. I was not aware that science research had them determined at different time periods. As for the impression of the foot print, it would be interesting to see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
And it obviously means some type of human looking foot did existed at the same time frame correct? or is that just what Nohelp4u said? It would be the flip side of what you said was determine not possible by millions of year?
Reference please, I would like to read itQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Maybe you mis-understood what I was saying. Since you base your belief in this "apelike" beast upon what scientists have found, you also inherently bring into your theory the assumptions upon which these scintists have based their conclusion that there was an apelike man (whether destroyed or not).Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Some of these assumtpions are huge. In one case an "apelike" man was concluded to exist based upon what later turned out to be a piece of the jawbone of a pig. In another it was based upon nothing more than a tooth. So just because a scientist may tell you that he believes that such a creature existed, the very existence of that creature is subject to a serious of sometimes incredible assumptions, the validty of which affects the validity of your theory regarding the source of these footprints.
I am not at home right now, but if I remember, I can post a link to a picture of it later.Quote:
Here I can not agree or disagree, the scientic facts are where I fail to follow details. I was not aware that science research had them determined at different times. As for the impression of the foot print, it would be interesting to see it.
That is ciorrect. A human clearly existed at the same time as a dinosaur. If they were created in the 6 day timeframe that we find in Genesis, then they would co-exist because their creation would have been at the same time.Quote:
And it obviously means some type of human looking foot did existed at the same time frame correct? Or is that just what Nohelp4u said? It would be the flip side of what you said was determine not possible by millions of year?
Why don't we discuss the descriptions of leviathan and behemoth found in scripture and see if these describe any known animal other than a dinosaur.Quote:
Reference please, I would like to read it
Random thoughts:
If Lucifer ruled before Gen 1, why would the inhabitants have to be inferior to men today?
Levithian could possibly be the crocodile, and behemoth could be the mammoth.
Mere possibilities.
I still think the words "created" and "made" signify two different things. Created would be to bring into existence something from nothing, while made would be to take materials arleady in existence and make something from that. We know that God made man from earth or red clay, which was already created at some previous time. The same could be said for Sun, Moon, and stars.
And why would scripture tells us that death and sin began with Adam rather than earlier?Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Rom 5:14-15
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
NKJV
1 Cor 15:22-23
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
NKJV
And why would God have abandoned all who came before, and only send His Son to die for the second round of mankind?
Let's examine those possibilities:Quote:
Levithian could possibly be the crocodile, and behemoth could be the mammoth.
Leviathan
Job 41:7-10
7 Can you fill his skin with harpoons,
Or his head with fishing spears?
8 Lay your hand on him;
Remember the battle--
Never do it again!
9 Indeed, any hope of overcoming him is false;
Shall one not be overwhelmed at the sight of him?
10 No one is so fierce that he would dare stir him up.
NKJV
Yes, one can fill his skin with harpoons, and yes men can overcome him. Ever watch the crocodile hunter?
Ps 104:26
26 There the ships sail about;
There is that Leviathan
Which You have made to play there.
NKJV
Isa 27:1
In that day the LORD with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.
NKJV
Crocs in the open sea?
Behemoth
Job 40:15-24
15 "Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you;
He eats grass like an ox.
16 See now, his strength is in his hips,
And his power is in his stomach muscles.
17 He moves his tail like a cedar;
Tail like a cedar? Even seen the tail of a mammoth or elephant? They are tiny.
Mammoths: Giants of the Ice Age - Google Book Search
We cannot speak directly with respect to the mammoth, but an elephant can be hunted and killed by men, and there is evidence that primitive men living in the far north did just that with the mammoths.Quote:
The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit.
18 His bones are like beams of bronze,
His ribs like bars of iron.
19 He is the first of the ways of God;
Only He who made him can bring near His sword.
A mammoth hides in the reeds and marsh? Really?Quote:
20 Surely the mountains yield food for him,
And all the beasts of the field play there.
21 He lies under the lotus trees,
In a covert of reeds and marsh.
22 The lotus trees cover him with their shade;
The willows by the brook surround him.
23 Indeed the river may rage,
Yet he is not disturbed;
He is confident, though the Jordan gushes into his mouth,
24 Though he takes it in his eyes,
Or one pierces his nose with a snare.
NKJV
The mammoth was wooly because it needed that insulation to survive in the extreme cold. It would be unlikely to exist in a tropical climate.
Mammoths: Giants of the Ice Age - Google Book Search
That would mean that God did not create the firmament:Quote:
I still think the words "created" and "made" signify two different things. Created would be to bring into existence something from nothing, while made would be to take materials arleady in existence and make something from that. We know that God made man from earth or red clay, which was already created at some previous time. The same could be said for Sun, Moon, and stars.
Gen 1:7-8
7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
NKJV
Or the sun, moon and the stars:
Gen 1:16-17
16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.
NKJV
Or the animals:
Gen 1:25
25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
NKJV
Or the heavens and the earth:
Gen 2:4
4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
NKJV
Because it is referring to THIS creation. If the earth existed prior to the 6 day creation sin before Eve is a different topic. But as I said, I really don't believe if man existed prior to the 6 day creation that that man survived to this creation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Man and sin could not have come from the old to the new since it would not have been recreated in any sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Let's look at one passage that I think has bearing on this question:
Rom 8:19-22
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
NKJV
So, if ALL creation groans because of sin, and if the prior civilization had to be destroyed because of sin, then sin was already in all creation prior to the 6 day creation.
That being the case, Adam and Eve were born into a universe which was not "good" as God declared it, but already corrupted by sin.
If not, then how was it cleared of sin the first time around? If Jesus died for the sins of those prior to the "gap", then why were they all exterminated? That would be inconsistent with what we see with God in the flood.
If Jesus died for their sins and cleansed all creation, then why would He need to die a second time for all creation? Was His first death not sufficient?
Do you see what I am getting at? One of my key concerns is that the gap theory strikes at the heart of the gospel message.
Here are some pictures for you:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Dinosaur and Human Co-existence: FOOTPRINTS
Here are a couple of particularly good examples:
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/new-mexic...lose-up-th.jpg
I tried posting the second image in this post and another, but dfor some reason, it does not show up - so here is the link to it:
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/bur-track.htm
Deleted
Tom, your quptes from Job are well taken. We probably can't know what these animals were.
They weren't preserved on the ark for sure.
I am going to sum up what I think, and then unless someone presents some new idea, I probably won't come back to this, since we have begun to re-hash.
I base what I think on 3 words.
1. Created
2. Made
I believe that God is very specific in the words He uses, and the two words are different.
3. Replenish. God told Adam to replenish, and He told Noah to replenish. I can't believe it meant one thing to Adam and something different to Noah.
Now as to the plan of redemption.
There is no plan of redemption for the fallen angels, so why should we assume there would be for any pre-Adamites who were involved with Satan's rebellion?
I don't think I am any better because I think the gap theory has merit, nor do I think you are any worse for not thinking so.
I hope those visiting this discussion have found it interesting.
What is your basis for saying that they were not preserved on the ark?Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
I am going to sum up what I think, and then unless someone presents some new idea, I probably won't come back to this, since we have begun to re-hash.
I dealt with this previously, and to say "amde" means something different causes other doctrinal issues.Quote:
I base what I think on 3 words.
1. Created
2. Made
I believe that God is very specific in the words He uses, and the two words are different.
This is a translation found only in a couple of translations, the KJV being one. The key problem with the KJV is that the language is obsolete and mis-understandings can result. It would be better to look at an updated translation also based on the Textus-Receptus manuscript, for instance the NKJV, which reads:Quote:
3. Replenish. God told Adam to replenish, and He told Noah to replenish. I can't believe it meant one thing to Adam and something different to Noah.
Gen 1:27-28
28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
NKJV
Fill is a more accurate translation of the word in Hebrew. Here is the definition of the word "replenish"
================================================== =====
replenish
One entry found.
Main Entry:
re·plen·ish Listen to the pronunciation of replenish
Pronunciation:
\ri-ˈple-nish\
Function:
verb
Etymology:
Middle English replenisshen, from Anglo-French repleniss-, stem of replenir to fill, from re- + plein full, from Latin plenus — more at full
Date:
14th century
transitive verb1 a: to fill with persons or animals : stock barchaic : to supply fully : perfect c: to fill with inspiration or power : nourish2 a: to fill or build up again <replenished his glass> b: to make good : replaceintransitive verb: to become full : fill up again
================================================== ======
My source is Webster's Dictionary. Note that the archaic meaning (i.e. from the KJV) is to "supply fully", NOT to fill up again. Even today, both to fill OR to fill again are acceptable definitions.
So, since we are dealing with the archaic language, the proper translation, even not considering the context, would be "to supply fully" which negates the idea of a gap. This is in concert with the Hebrew word's meaning.
The two problems that I mentioned still remain:Quote:
Now as to the plan of redemption.
There is no plan of redemption for the fallen angels, so why should we assume there would be for any pre-Adamites who were involved with Satan's rebellion?
1) Inconsistency of God.
We God never changes but that theory requires that God changes.
John 3:15-19
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV
Did God NOT so love mankind beforehand and only so love mankind now? The argument about the angels is a different issue because the angels are a different creation, and I might add, not created in the image of God.
2) The Problem of Sin
If sin and death pre-existed Adam, then sin was already permeating all creation, thus it was not good as God declared it to be. A Holy God cannot abide sin, therefore a creation with sin in it could not be said to be good by God.
Scripture records a change in nature after Adam's sin, because sin and death entered, but the gap theory requires that both of those pre-existed Adam
To get sin out of nature would require a perfect sacrifice (Jesus), and if He died for the creation before to remove sin, then why would they all have been condemned? Why would that perfect sacrifice not have covered either that prior creation, nor us? And I say it did not cover us because Jesus, according to the gap theory, would have had to have died a second time.
Okay can you explain
Some say NOTHING existed before the 6 day creation, not even the angels. If nothing existed before 6 day creation when did God create the angels? And when and where was Satan cast?
Some say that heaven and the angels existed before 6 day creation and then Lucifer rebelled and was cast out of heaven. In Luke Jesus says, ''behold I saw Satan cast out of heaven''. They say before the 6 day creation happened the form of what became the earth was where satan was cast. If this is not true where was Satan cast?
We have very little direct information from scripture on this point. Here is what we do have:Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
1) It appears that all creation took place in the 6 days. It appears that angels would be amongst that which was created during that timeframe, though I can see an argument against that point.
2) It appears from the book of Job that the angels were there when the earth was created:
Job 38:4-7
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
NKJV
That being the case, if the angels were created during the 6 days that heavens and earth were created (which seems probable, they were created on the 1st day.
As for when the rebellion occurred, that appears to have happened following the 6 day creation, and the reason that I say that is:
Rev 12:7-9
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
NKJV
The earth existed at this time. It is not possible to state anything else about the timing because scripture does not tell us anything more. All we can see if that the rebellion occurred somewhere in the timeframe between Gen 1:1 and Gen 3:1.
As to leviathian and behemoth:
My mind was running in the idea of dinasaurs when I made the comment about not being on the ark. I was thinking that God could have been talking about some creatures that existed before Noah's flood, that Job could well have known of.
Of course, your are right, that could be a completely false assumption.
But then we have to accept that they existed in Job's day. As we have no record of any creatures of such size and importance becoming extinct duroing the last 4,000 years, they must still be with us. What do you think they might be?
When do you think the dinosaurs disappeared?
Satan was obviously already a fallen creature when he met Eve, and Eve and Adam had not yet sinned, so sin DID exist before Adam's time. How much before we don't know.
Actually, and this is only MY own theory, Sin originated in eternity past when Lucifer allowed pride to cause him to launch rebellon against God.
As long as it existed in eternity, it could not be eradicated, so God created a world system with a finite time frame in which to finally and toatlly eradicate sin from all the universe. We are a part of that plan. (I'm not asking you to buy this, it is just what I think)
You are asking us to believe that God created the heavens, Earth, angels, and then the arch angel rebelled, lost his position in heaven and was prepared to meet Eve in the garden all BEFORE she and Adam sinned withoug there being a gap between vs1 and vs2.
I doubt it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
First, there are likely many animals which have gone extinct, large and small, for which we have no record. Up until the last hundred or so years, there would not have been a lot of tracking of endangered species, nor would it have been possible to have known whether an animal no longer present in NA, for example, was present elsewhere. So the lack of a record of extinction really does not tell us anything.Quote:
When do you think the dinosaurs disappeared?
As to what they may be, there are a number of possibilities, one of which may in be that they are still around. For example:
http://www.geocities.com/smithtj.geo/pictures/thing.gif
There are also on-going mysteries about the Loch Ness "monster". There are also large areas in Africa that remain unexplored. In one such area the local natives have told researchers about a large reptilian animal that sounds much like a dinosaur. They periodically find one and have occasion killed and eaten them.
There are many other things in scripture which, ignoring the supernatural, would be hard to believe. Yet we know that these things are true.Quote:
You are asking us to believe that God created the heavens, Earth, angels, and then the arch angel rebelled, lost his position in heaven and was prepared to meet Eve in the garden all BEFORE she and Adam sinned withoug there being a gap between vs1 and vs2.
I doubt it.
No. Satan was fallen before he met Eve. You cannot deny that.
Therefore, sin existed before Adam's fall.
I did not say otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Yep that is ONE reason why I believe there is more before the creation days.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
And why does that suggest that there must be more time that a simple reading reading of scripture would suggest? I don't understand the reasoning. Please clarify.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Some people here claim that nothing existed before creation. They say God created the angels during the 6 day creation.
Others say there were the angels and satan's fall. They say satan was cast down and lived on what we now know as earth but it was in a prior form. God can recreate something so they believe that the earth existed in basic form where satan and the dinosaurs lived and the pyramids were made, until he did the 6 day creation.
He says he takes us who were sin and cast away or sin so why couldn't he take a basic rock form and regenerate it into what we now know as the earth?
Remember - time itself is a creation, so how can we talk about "before"? That is on the timeline. God is not on our timeline.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
When we are speaking about things where scripture is not explicit, we cannot be dogmatic.Quote:
They say God created the angels during the 6 day creation.
Others say there were the angels and satan's fall. They say satan was cast down and lived on what we now know as earth but it was in a prior form.
Whether he "coul;d" or not is not the question. The question is did he?Quote:
God can recreate something so they believe that the earth existed in basic form where satan and the dinosaurs lived and the pyramids were made, until he did the 6 day creation.
He says he takes us who were sin and cast away or sin so why couldn't he take a basic rock form and regenerate it into what we now know as the earth?
Also, I still don't see why, if Satan fell before Eve, that is a problem with a 6 day creation. That what the specific question that I was asking right now.
[QUOTE=Tj3;1753646]Remember - time itself is a creation, so how can we talk about "before"? That is on the timeline. God is not on our timeline.
Not saying God is on our timeline. But either the angels existed before creation and time or they did not. My point was that some people here have said that absolutely nothing existed before creation other than God himself so when and where did the angels come in?
Before Gen 1:1 or after?
When we are speaking about things where scripture is not explicit, we cannot be dogmatic.
Whether he "coul;d" or not is not the question. The question is did he?
I'm not trying to be dogmatic or questioning I just like picturing what might it been like
Also, I still don't see why, if Satan fell before Eve, that is a problem with a 6 day creation. That what the specific question that I was asking right now.
I am not saying there is a problem with Satan falling before Eve because obviously he did.
Not sure what you are saying you are asking on that one.
I already responded to that in an earlier post with a detailed answer of what we find in scripture. I am not entirely clear on what this has to do with the topic at hand, though.Quote:
Not saying God is on our timeline. But either the angels existed before creation and time or they did not. My point was that some people here have said that absolutely nothing existed before creation other than God himself so when and where did the angels come in?
Before Gen 1:1 or after?
This was brought up by someone else claiming that this was a reason for believing in the gap theory. I don't understand why. And if that was not the reason for raising this point, then how does it relate to the topic at hand?Quote:
I am not saying there is a problem with Satan falling before Eve because obviously he did.
Not sure what you are saying you are asking on that one.
I agree with you there is no conflict, but you have to agree something unique happened six thousand years ago to cause mankind to emerge from darkness. Whether it took a long time or a short time to bring the Earth to what we know now, God tells us he took the dust of the Earth to make man, he didn't tell us what form that dust took, think seriously about it, there is evidence the Earth has existed for a long time but there is no real evidence mankind has been around for very long
Modern man has been around from 100,000 to 250,000 years. That's longer than your 10,000 year Adam and Eve fairytale.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Really, where did you get that "fact" from? There are some who would say it started in Africa over one million years ago but I haven't heard your theory. The Australian Aborigine is said to have been in Australia for 40,000 years but we have no evidence that large populations existed anywhere even that long ago. The reality is we have only theory about what existed before man began recording history and the rate of development since then is astronomical, so the question remains; what could possibly have been going on for eons? The Earth is not such a harsh place that development couldn't have taken place. We are expected to believe that mankind is essentially lazy and did nothing for hundreds of thousands of years. It beggars belief!Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillac59
This is a bold statement so perhaps we should hear your theories which reconcile the biblical creationist view and the scientific view. And please let's stick to facts not theory.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Most have been addressed already in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
My contention is that true science cannot disagree with the Bible, because the Bible is true, understanding that we do have to get to the original meaning of various details.
If you have something specific in mind, we can discuss that.
As I though theoryQuote:
Originally Posted by galveston
If you disagree, state your case and we will debate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Now don't take everything at once, but name the specific place where you feel there is a disagreement between the Bible and science, (not theories).
I'm not making the running for you, buddy, you made a statement and you need to defend it with evidence but let's start with Genesis Chapter 1 and obvious difference The Bible does not assume a creation period of millions of yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by galveston
That's true. How do you answer the evidence for more than 6,000 years of history?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
You will say that God created everything with that evidence built in. I would not argue against that because I know that He can do what He pleases.
But if something IS demonstrated as fact, and it seems to contradict our UNDERSTANDING of what Scripture says, then we should ba able to re-think. If our re-thinking conflicts with other Scripture, then obviously what was assumed to be fact is not fact. On the other hand, maybe we have THOUGHT the Bible said something that it did not really say.
Here is an example from a different Scripture that may illustrate what I am talking about.
Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
(KJV)
This is an accurate statement from a scientific viewpoint.
Since we have learned that the visible universe is made up of atomic and sub-atomic particles, we now know that this Scripture is literally true.
As to the gap theory, TJ3 and I debated that pretty fully earlier in this thread.
I rely on what the best science has to offer, which is as I said an age of modern man of 100,000 -250,000 years. Sorry if this doesn't fit with your pathetic little adam and eve fairytale and 6 day creation myth. You've embraced mythology and are trying to modernize it and make it fit when science is proving it wrong. It is obvious. You might as well be reading the Book of Mormon.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Present your evidence that the Bible record of Adam and Eve is a "fairytale".Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillac59
After you have done that, explain Hebrews 11:3. How did the author know that bit of scientific fact?
I'm not going to let you tiptoe around this. You can either present your evidence, or show that you are full of hot air.
Do you even read what is written? Who said anything about Adam and Eve? What I said is that the myth that man has been around for thousands even millions of years is unsubstantiated by the facts of what man is. Intelligent, inventive, adaptive and a builder. Where are all the buildings, the indications of even rudamentary civilisation, they aren't there, so it is possible, and not unscientific, to suggest something else was going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillac59
You really do need to get off your anti-Christian gig and realise that there are others who also don't think as you do. In fact, I would say, about 98% of all the people who have ever lived, and the majority can't be wrong
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