Ask Me Help Desk - Why is there belief in purgatory?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nestorian

P.s. The child has the need to understand, and a natural curiosity.

A child learns to understand the ways of life, and in their curiousity can fall and pump their head. Does the parent look upon them to see if they need help? If the child is hurt and crying, does the parent go to them out of love? Does the parent pick them up and hold them, and give all that they can in aid of their fall? Does the child learn anything by the fall?

Now think of this: does the parent turn away from the child that was in tears? Does the parent feel the fall was the child's fault, and leave them in thier own accountability to what they of free will did?

The facts of this can be compared to God's way and His love... I believe Our Father in heaven is more loving then what man of this world can ever be. So the result of which option is best, Our Father in doing for the small child, would do what is for the child. I hope we agree....

Now let's take it to a different level.... We are no longer a small child, and we fall yet again in our own free will choice. Are we accountable to that choice. Do we pick ourselves up and learn from the mistake. Are we capable of doing it alone?

Again Our Father looks upon the situation, and He determines what aid is best. But it is evident we do fall... we do make mistakes... and we will be accountable... we should learn from that fall...

The facts of this compares to life no matter what we carry as baggage. Some will have more in burdens then others, yet the strength of what they can carry, and when they need help is lovingly looked upon by Our Father.

By no means can you pridefully neglect your own accountability.. When you are weak and have given into the wrong ways, it is you that have elected to do so. To place the burden upon someone else is irresponsible.

When things get tough, we can look for Our Father to help.. Yet as a responsible and loving adult we bow down in prayer when we feel the heavy burden.. If your heart of conviction is seen by the Father as prideful, and wanting not to bow down, not wanting to be accountable to your own choice ... that is trouble upon trouble... satan has you following him.

Until you give your heart to God as He has shown His love in doing for you, then it is again the choice you make...

Understand that a huge price was paid to free us from sin... As a slave being bought to freedom in following God, and being His servant.. To go His way to righteousness...

If you of choice want to remain a slave to sin, it's your accountable choice. (Free will)

WOW!
I would never have believed that this question could or would spread to 13 pages. I sure hope WG got the answer she was looking for. I certainly did. I now understand that there are many many people confused, taking the teachings of man instead of the teachings of God as gospel. At this point all I can conclude is that many of us that have posted here need to go back with an open mind and read and understand what the Bible actually has to say on this subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndbay

A child learns to understand the ways of life, and in their curiousity can fall and pump their head. Does the parent look upon them to see if they need help? If the child is hurt and crying, does the parent go to them out of love? Does the parent pick them up and hold them, and give all that they can in aid of their fall? Does the child learn anything by the fall?

Now think of this: does the parent turn away from the child that was in tears? Does the parent feel the fall was the child's fault, and leave them in thier own accountability to what they of free will did?

The facts of this can be compared to God's way and His love... I believe Our Father in heaven is more loving then what man of this world can ever be. So the result of which option is best, Our Father in doing for the small child, would do what is for the child. I hope we agree....

Now let's take it to a different level.... We are no longer a small child, and we fall yet again in our own free will choice. Are we accountable to that choice. Do we pick ourselves up and learn from the mistake. Are we capable of doing it alone?

Again Our Father looks upon the situation, and He determines what aid is best. But it is evident we do fall... we do make mistakes... and we will be accountable... we should learn from that fall...

The facts of this compares to life no matter what we carry as baggage. Some will have more in burdens then others, yet the strength of what they can carry, and when they need help is lovingly looked upon by Our Father.

By no means can you pridefully neglect your own accountability.. When you are weak and have given into the wrong ways, it is you that have elected to do so. To place the burden upon someone else is irresponsible.

When things get tough, we can look for Our Father to help.. Yet as a responsible and loving adult we bow down in prayer when we feel the heavy burden.. If your heart of conviction is seen by the Father as prideful, and wanting not to bow down, not wanting to be accountable to your own choice ... that is trouble upon trouble... satan has you following him.

Until you give your heart to God as He has shown His love in doing for you, then it is again the choice you make...

Understand that a huge price was paid to free us from sin... As a slave being bought to freedom in following God, and being His servant.. To go His way to righteousness...

If you of choice want to remain a slave to sin, it's your accountable choice. (Free will)

Hmm, you are very compelling as well, very intresting.

I spose that all depends on on the parent. Then again, it also depends on what you consider a parent. Some people are just parents in title only, not by their actions.:(

We are all accountable for one another as well. The ten comandments, and such, are are written by a man, as is the bible, no matter what you can not deny that. Even the stone tablits came from the Mo man himself no? So, what if he made a mistake, or altered them, it would have bin of his own free will to decide so, so to have faith in the bible you must then have faith in Man. Not just any, those of the past and with the need to survive, doing what it takes to live. Very questionable, you can tell me about pride, but I do not have pride, for that would require ignorance. I know that your beliefs are possibilities, and just as valid as mine, can you say that same?
My relationship with GOD is far different, for I know I'm one with GOD, and the univers, question is, what am I spose to be doing, or my purpose? Yes, the earth is my mother, and it pains me to see us change her so selfishly, and ignorently. It is possible that we are killing our future, and that is mass murder. Say what you want, but that is taking responsibility as well. Feel free to ignore that, but it doenst' change he fact that it is a possibility...

Also, good and bad, right and worng are subject to opinions. Look at religion it's self, see how it's changed over the years, see how our society has changed, by any means fortune and fame are a thing of Greed, and a sin. Having more then you need is a thing of greed, and a sin. Yes I believe this. I am a siner, and I do not go to church, but church is just a word meaning a building where people worship "GOD". But If GOD is with me, why go to some building where I can't feel GOD? Why not go for a walk in the sun, and be one with GOD? Do unto others as I'd have done unto me. Yes, that is how I Judge myself, and I find I'm more cruel then most can be to me. I'm sure if I can find a way to frgive myself, then I will beable to stand tall and not proud, but wiser.

So, what are you accountable for? THe enviromnet, animals, the objects you buy, the people who starve on the streets, the children who live abusively with their so called "parents"? Yes, if you think that I don't hold myself accountable then you are lying to yourself, and may want to take responsibility for such thoughts. I simply want to open your minds to the possibilites, because I feel I Responsible for at least showing what is out there, how it is connected and so on. Learning it. I don't see GOD as showing us things through a book, that would be in violation of letting us do things of our own free will, because that means GOD interfeared with our journy. But it is possible. Who knows.

Yes GOD's love is conditional, I am a ware of that idea.

Yes Jessus is a very inspirational man.

GOD wouldn't want servents. How many kill and go to war in GODs name? Tisk tisk, then they say we are right you are wrong, when they are really believing one and the same idea. Odd I know, but it's what I've come to understand.

Define a slave to sin? Because, I can see everyone as a slave to sin, it's biologically put there, in your religion, by GOD, he created us? Haha, no you don't see the logic there? What about the Human Needs?

I'm sorry if I sound rude, but I'm rather up front, and unaffraid to tred on uncharted or even sesitive ground. I do not mean any thing in offence, or aggression.

Peace and kindness be with you.

"love is my ally, life is my goal,
Respect is my accomplishment." - ME Yes I made that up. This is my mantra I spose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nestorian

Hmm, you are very compelling as well, very intresting.

I spose that all depends on on the parent. Then again, it also depends on what you consider a parent. Some people are just parents in title only, not by thier actions.:(

We are all accountable for one another as well. The ten comandments, and such, are are writen by a man, as is the the bible, no matter what you can not deny that. Even the stone tablits came from the Mo man him self no? So, what if he made a mistake, or altered them, it would have bin of his own free will to decide so, so to have faith in the bible you must then have faith in Man. Not just any, those of the past and with the need to survive, doing what it takes to live. Very questionable, you can tell me about pride, but i do not have pride, for that would require ignorence. I know that your beliefs are possiblities, and just as valid as mine, can you say that same??

Please go back and reread Dut 10: 1thru 5 and you will see that the tablets although huned out my Moses were written by God

My relationship with GOD is far different, for i know I'm one with GOD, and the univers, question is, what am I spose to be doing, or my purpose? Yes, the earth is my mother, and it pains me to see us change her so selfishly, and ignorently. It is possible that we are killing our future, and that is mass murder. Say what you want, but that is taking responsiblity as well. Feel free to ignore that, but it doenst' change he fact that it is a possibility...

What form of earthism are you preaching here? No where that I read in scriptures is there any mention that the earth is our mother, father or anything else.

Also, good and bad, right and worng are subject to opinions. Look at religion it's self, see how it's changed over the years, see how our society has changed, by any means fortune and fame are a thing of Greed, and a sin. Having more then you need is a thing of greed, and a sin. Yes i believe this. I am a siner, and I do not go to church, but church is just a word meaning a building where people worship "GOD". but If GOD is with me, why go to some building where i can't feel GOD?? why not go for a walk in the sun, and be one with GOD? Do unto others as I'd have done unto me. Yes, that is how i Judge myself, and i find i'm more cruel then most can be to me. I'm sure if i can find a way to frgive myself, then I will beable to stand tall and not proud, but wiser.

There is no "subject to opinions" in the bible. It is very clear on what is right and what is wrong. What is pleasing to god and what is displeasing to Him.

So, what are you accountable for? THe enviromnet, animals, the objects you buy, the people who starve on the streets, the children who live abusively with thier so called "parents"? yes, if you think that i don't hold myself accountable then you are lying to your self, and may want to take responsibility for such thoughts. I simply want to open your minds to the possibilites, because I feel i Responsible for at least showing what is out there, how it is connected and so on. Learning it. I don't see GOD as showing us things through a book, that would be in violation of letting us do things of our own free will, because that means GOD interfeared with our journy. But it is possible. Who knows.

Do you when you go out and buy a new car leave the owners manual in the glove compartment and ignore it? Do you fail to do the routine maintenance as required by that owners manual? If you do ignore the requirement and that car breaks to you insist that the dealership repair it under warranty even though you have not done what is required to maintain it properly?

Yes GOD's love is conditional, i am a ware of that idea.

Yes Jessus is a very inspirational man.

GOD wouldn't want servents. How many kill and go to war in GODs name?? Tisk tisk, then they say we are right you are wrong, when they are really believing one and the same idea. Odd i know, but it's what i've come to understand.

Those that have practiced religion have done many horrible things in the name of God. So what? That is not Christianity, that is religion. There is a big difference. Those people will stand before the throne of God on judgment day and answer for their actions.

Define a slave to sin?? Because, I can see everyone as a slave to sin, it's biologically put there, in your religion, by GOD, he created us? haha, no you don't see the logic there? what about the Human Needs?

I'm sorry if i sound rude, but i'm rather up front, and unaffraid to tred on uncharted or even sesitive ground. I do not mean any thing in offence, or agression.

Peace and kindness be with you.

"love is my ally, life is my goal,
Respect is my accomplishment." - ME Yes i made that up. This is my mantra i spose.

Rude? No, just uninformed. God made man perfect in his image. Man through his sin has corrupted this world and made it what we see before us today.
If you were to think of the inspired word of God (the bible) as an owners manual for your life it is much easier to understand what it says and how to interpretate it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Christ died for our sins -- ALL of our sins past, present, and future here on earth. Why then do Catholic Christians believe a place like purgatory is necessary?

There is no place called purgatory written in The Word

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

We were set free from sin... Christ paid the price... and offered us as servants to righteousness

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

This verse says " if ", as in " if " you choose not to. (If a man abide not in me)

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Again should an individual choose to call on the name of the Lord

1 Peter 1:14-15 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

obedience children.. those who do the will of God and walk in righhteousness as Christ did.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Be ye holy for I am holy.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450donn

WOW!!
I would never have believed that this question could or would spread to 13 pages. I sure hope WG got the answer she was looking for. I certainly did.

That is in the hands of God, and given to whom He reveals truth unto...

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450donn

I now understand that there are many many people confused, taking the teachings of man instead of the teachings of God as gospel. At this point all I can conclude is that many of us that have posted here need to go back with an open mind and read and understand what the Bible actually has to say on this subject.

The discernment from right and wrong can be permitted by God when an individual is willing to hear His voice. (John 10:27).. . and when we in prayer to the Father, asking in the name of Jesus, Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to discern between good and bad. All glory and honour unto God our Father. Amen

450donn, I'm impressed once again some one has come up with the same anser different words an others will still argue againts you though they are of "the same, or similar faith". That depends on how you look at it, and interpret the information. Like I said, everything is subject to interpretation.

So, GOD writes on stones, the bible is a thing of man, papper, and corruption. "Man through his sin has corrupted this world and made it what we see before us today." - You
Yes the bible is apart of our world is it not? "Translated" by how many people... Yes many questions in that, and it's bin copied by how many different texts, and it's different for how many? I can't even count how many different christianities there are. (probable because one is more than enough.) Each claims, "We are right, we will be the ones who go to GOD." Well, OK so every one goes to GOD in their own way, right? Perhaps this is so... But then why is every one, wait I know the answer to that, claiming other's are wrong? This is the need for POWER/ SIGNIFICANTS... To be "right" is to hold sway or influence over things. Indeed. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but I know I'm willing to learn. That's not to say I'm ignorent in the sense that I won't learn about your religion, or I will and I simply won't accept it; but rather I will accept it's a possibility, but there are many more possibilities. If I'm wrong, then can GOD blame me for not trusting my fellow man to tell me what GOD said? I hope not, that just seems childish, and selfish. Indeed. Which I've considered GOD like that once but it's very unlikely.

Hmm, you can say that the bible is clear, but you are you and I am me. We see through different thoughts, and ideas, cultural differences, and such. If you think about it, all those natives and such that didn't even know "GOD" nor the bible, did they go to hell? How does GOD judge them? What about people who simply are told different, like you said, subverted from GOD's perfect creation to what we are now. A child is told to had a different religion, not openly but by simply being told that way is "wrong", or a different race, etc. They grow to dislike these "differnt" people and so refuse to help them unless they do something inreturn/ change their ways. Yet they pray for forgivness for their sins, but they leave out the things they do like, believing that others are less than they are because of what they believe, or look like. A product of how we were raised... Hmmm. Is it right to claim your religion to be the "ONE" to GOD? Pride = ignorance does it not? To say that this is all the there is, is to deny us our "freedom". Our freedom to be with GOD in the relationship that we hold with GOD. IS it right to let our race cut down entire forests and kill many many animals, for greedy ends? (Personally, I can not see GOD saying we have dominion over the animals/ environment, but rather the responsibility to look after it, keep the balance to what ever end. But we don't.) How many people suffer because we live in big houses, have fancy cars, buy usless items (excesively), and kill animals for clothing/ food in cruel ways when we do NOT need to.

I'm sorry, but my family and I are quite poor, and have never owned a vehicle newer than ten years old. We never had wanrty, or manuals for our vehicles. So I'm not sure I understand what you mean, it doesn't really mean much to me. Sorry...

Christianity is a religion. "Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." - Dictionary online. Yes, christianity and Judism, JW, Greek Mythology, The Roman Chathlic Chuch, Wiccan, even the Justic system are all religious ideas. Even Jedism is a religion.
Yes yes, we will all be judged, wait no we wont, we're already judged. GOD knows all silly. We are laready going to where ever we are going, it's our predetermined destiny. I don't think what the bible says about Free will is accurate, It is contradictory. If GOD didn't know then it would make sense, but then agian i guess we aren'y spose to make sence of it, but just follow it.
Don't worry, my idea of free will is rather odd. Because freedom, implies nothing holds you back, no concience, no fear, no physical restraints, and such. "Freedom: exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.; the power to determine action without restraint.; the absence of or release from ties, obligations, etc.; the power to exercise choice and make decisions without constraint from within or without; autonomy; self-determination."- Dictionary online. However, we all know better. We know that that kind of freedom doesn't really exsist, because that would be Chaos, so to have order we need something to balance it all out... This is where your idea of responsibility comes in, the ten commandments, to accept what you do will affect the world around you, thus affecting you. So these rules are what you follow to keep order, and still be relatively free. It is a matter of balance, and unfortuantely we are not very wise to the way of this balance. No, i do not believe what the bible has to say on that matter, for it conflicts in far too many ways with who I am, and what the people around me do. I am responsible for my actions however, i do not always know what is best, and i will not always be "perfect". (unless of course we are perfect as we are, because this moment is the only one and what we are doing is the only thing that will ever happen in that moment. So, it was ment to be, it is ment to be, and it forever will be ment to be. Understand?) I beleive GOD if "he" (I dont' believe GOD has a gender, not sure GOD is a being like we are.) does judge us, would know better our reasons, and then go through things till we either understand the pain, or till we right what we never intended to wrong. Personally i'm looking for a way to forgive myself, for all i've done, do, and will do. But its hard, and takes time i spose. I'm sure i'll find it though.

The bible is just that, but its not the only one, and it's not entirely ment for me. It's like I said, "A book of myths, and fables." Through such things we learn. Just like any moral, or value we have. We remember things that are more emotionally connected to us, so we make stories to explain them. I hope you don't take offence to that, but that's all the bible is to me, a book of stories ment to give us guidence. There are many books of such teachings, I have a Buddhist book, and spiritual book, a scientific (nuerological) book, Psychological book, Age of Fable book, a bible, Jedi Book (yes i do get a lot of very true info from this book. after all, the ideas in that book are from other books/ religions.), and any number of people who have gave me wisdom.

"Love is my ally, life is my Goal,
and Respect is my accomplishment." - Me

That is my code, it's very multi-purposful and universal. The meaning changes with each new situation, but some times it's the same. I've heard many people try to interpret it, and many great ideas, some very deep, but it will always be ever cahnging for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nestorian

That is my code; it's very multi-purposeful and universal. The meaning changes with each new situation, but sometimes it's the same.

I'm curious as to what you might make of a statement such as this?

God and Truth are convertible; St. Thomas says, “Whence it follows not only that truth is in Him, but that He is truth itself, and the sovereign and first truth. “ Summa Prima Q, 15 a5”

This statement is alluding to the fact that there is an absolute and infallible truth. How then do you explain that there is one set of Divine Laws for me and a different one for you?

From my point of view, it would seem that your 'code' is one in which faith depends on a predetermined outcome dependent on a mode egocentric reasoning. That is to say, under the guise of freedom of will, it would seem that it is suggested that the answers to cosmic questions are found in one's own subjective reasoning, which I understand as relativism. How do you rationalize that what is truth for one individual is not truth for another? Do we say heaven and earth where created by God to follow His immutable laws of nature. Then too wouldn't we say that Divine Laws equally immutable; not sugject or our relative or subjective reasoning influenced by our own desires? How do you explain that natural law is immutable, absolute, and as suggested Divine Law is subjective? Couldn't we say that both sets of Laws, natural and Divine, are absolute?

JoeT

JoeT,
For me God is truth and all that He created originally is conforming to that truth including all the laws God set in motion.
But discerning what that is can be difficult for often we see things differently than others and even differently from one time to another.
As an example people determining God's truth in Holy Scripture depends on their interpretation of what The Word says. Thus we have over 30,000 denominations and who knows how many who call themselves non-denominational.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

JoeT,
For me God is truth and all that He created originally is conforming to that truth including all the laws God set in motion.
But discerning what that is can be difficult for often we see things differently than others and even differently from one time to another.
As an example people determining God's truth in Holy Scripture depends on their interpretation of what The Word says. Thus we have over 30,000 denominations and who knows how many who call themselves non-denominational.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That is why scripture says that we are simply to accept what it says and not interpret it.

Tj3,
That's interesting.
I often see you interpreting Scripture sometime literally and sometimes not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
That's interesting.
I often see you interpreting Scripture sometime literally and sometimes not.

Fred, making false accusations about others is no way to enhance your claims.

Tj3,
I believe what I see from you and I have NEVER made a false accusation to or for you.
So quit making that claim.
I speak the truth.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I believe what I see from you and I have NEVER made a false accusation to or for you.
Sp quit making that claim.
I speak the truth.
Fred

Fred, since you so often don't know, or claim not to know when you are making false accusations, I suggest that you not say anything about anyone unless it is complimentary.

Would both of you please go to your rooms for ten minutes to cool off?

Wondergirl,
I am in my room and I'm already cool.
Thanks any way.
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
I am in my room and I'm already cool.
Thanks any way.
Fred

:) I'm glad, Fred. You don't need Internet stress.

Begone internet stress. I demand internet stress to be gone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

Begone internet stress. I demand internet stress to be gone.

Did you bring us ice cream cones? Chocolate chip cookies and milk? Hershey's kisses?

Thanks for the goodies,
Fred

Wondergirl,

I brought Cake, white chedder popcorn and some Milk. How does that sound. Sounds yummy to me. I had all three of them today...

We need to keep Fred calm. Let's give him cake and milk first. What happened to our other friend, Tom?

Maybe he went to his room to cool off as you suggested.
LOL
Fred

Jesushelper76 ,
That sounds good to me.
Yum Yum
Fred