See what I mean about how some folk go personal when one dares disagree with them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
All you have to do is scrape together some CREDIBLE evidence for your claim.
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See what I mean about how some folk go personal when one dares disagree with them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
All you have to do is scrape together some CREDIBLE evidence for your claim.
I'm hoping you won't start again either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I can't do any better than Paul's own words and writings. Every item on the list can be referenced to his epistles.Quote:
Now, how about that supposed evidence of Paul being a homosexual? Have you come up with anything concrete, or is that list which have absolutely nothing in it in that regard all that you can scrape together?
Heh heh... I know that you hope that I won't start disagreeing with you again, but I cannot do otherwise when you make false and unsubstantiated claims suggesting Paul was homosexual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Then you concede that you have nothing credible to suggest that he was homosexual.Quote:
I can't do any better than Paul's own words and writings. Every item on the list can be referenced to his epistles.
Only what Paul himself has written. If that doesn't work for you, oh well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Paul's writings are clear - He spoke very clearly about the sinfulness of homosexuality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV
That works for me. It seems to be you that has the problem with that.
BTW, did you miss the fact that Paul was married? I noticed that you failed to acknowledge that.
Again --
I'm hoping you won't start again either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Like I said before, I know that you hope that I won't start disagreeing with you again, but I cannot do otherwise when you make false and unsubstantiated claims suggesting Paul was homosexual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Just try to control your reactions.
He hated what he was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
How many homosexuals are married? Why do they marry?
Where does he say that? The closest that I see to that is where he says that he hates what he does when he slips in the war against the flesh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Rom 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV
BTW, please note the context - Paul sattes that this is not specific to ANY sin, but a general discussion regarding the effects of sin:
Rom 7:8-12
8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
NKJV
So where does he say that he hates what he is?
Indeed, he said the exact opposite:
2 Tim 1:12
12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.
NKJV
So where does he say that he hates what he is?
There you go!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
He was at the same time both sinner and saint. In his second letter to the Corinthians, he wrote, "But thanks be to God, who hath given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Cor. 2:14)Quote:
Indeed, he said the exact opposite
So I take it then that you concede that he did NOT say that he hates what he is, but rather was speaking in generalities about sin (and NOT about homosexuality), in stating that he DOES what he hates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
This describes all who are saved in Christ and yet live at war with our flesh.Quote:
He was at the same time both sinner and saint. In his second letter to the Corinthians, he wrote, "But thanks be to God, who hath given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Cor. 2:14)
Again, nothing even suggests homosexuality.
Do you have anything else?
Jist havin' a wee bit o' fun wit you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The epistles aren't credible? Wait'll I tell Akoue and the others!Quote:
All you have to do is scrape together some CREDIBLE evidence for your claim.
Sigh - you like twisting what others say don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
The Epistles are credible - it is your argument which isn't because the epistles say absolutely nothing remotely close to what you want them to say.
hahahahahahahahahaha Funny, Tom. Or Funny Tom. You continue to prove my point and support my argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
And being human -- heterosexual as well as homosexual -- isn't being at war with our flesh?Quote:
This describes all who are saved in Christ and yet live at war with our flesh.
The Corinthians?? The CORINTHIANS?? "But thanks be to God, who hath given us [all of us who struggle with "the flesh"] the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Cor. 2:14)Quote:
Again, nothing even suggests homosexuality.
I'm good for all night. You getting tired and running out of fuel?Quote:
Do you have anything else?
This is indeed the issue. What scripture says is true. But it is wrong for someone to take snippets out of context to try to justify an argument which is entirely contrary to what scripture actually says. I remember warnings in various part of the Bible regarding adding to, or removing things from God's word.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
*writing this down in permanent marker*Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
May I quote you? It will come in handy soon, I'm sure.
Really? You claimed scripture said one thing, and when we read it, it says something much different - exactly how does that prove your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Those who are part of the body of Christ are at war with their flesh - and that goes for all of us who are saved. But where does Paul say that means that we are all homosexual? Where does he say that m,eans that he is homosexual?Quote:
And being human -- heterosexual as well as homosexual -- isn't being at war with our flesh?
In the context, he spoke about ALL sin.
He was not speaking about ALL Corinthians. Let's see who the audience was:Quote:
The Corinthians?? The CORINTHIANS?? "But thanks be to God, who hath given us [all of us who struggle with "the flesh"] the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Cor. 2:14)
1 Cor 1:2
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
NKJV
He was speaking to those who are saved in the church at Corinth. You argument falls apatrt once more.
Not at all.Quote:
I'm good for all night. You getting tired and running out of fuel?
I hope that you note it well, because it affects (indeed invalidates) every one of your arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Yes, of course, Tom. Okie doakie, Tom. *faces Tom and holds up a mirror*Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
*Wondergirl fails to note that the glass surface of the mirror is pointing at herself*Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Hee hee hee hee Yer gettin' desperate, Tom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Desperate? You're giving yourself too much credit. I would love the challenge if you could come up with an argument which needs more than 30 seconds to refute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
All the epistles won't keep you busy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Here's the list again, in case you misplaced it. Every single item can be supported with Paul's words from his epistles (as you have admitted), and the conclusion is that only homosexuality fits.
Paul --
1. felt tremendous guilt and shame
2. loathed himself
3. spouted self-judging rhetoric
4. had negative feeling toward his own body
5. felt controlled by something he had no power to change
6. experienced a war between what he desired with his mind and what he desired with his body
7. was driven to a legalistic religion of control
8. feared when his legalism was threatened
9. had an "interesting" attitude toward women
10. Refused to seek marriage as an outlet for his passion
11. Wrote, "And to help me keep from being too elated by the abundance of revelation, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three times I sought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; but he said to me 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness' " (2 Cor. 12:7-9)
12. Also wrote, "You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first; and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus" (Gal. 4:13)
13. Felt beyond redemption as per his Jewish upbringing and thus, even more, appreciated what Christ had accomplished
When you take passages out of context, or you alter the words, it is far too easy to refute such claims.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
So, no, your out of context references do not keep me busy.
Good try, Tom, but your accusations don't wash. Look at the list again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Saw it before - post it a hundred times and it still won't be any more effective because none of these support your argument. If you think that they do, then pick the one that you think is the best / strongest argument and let's look at it in more detail.
To be honest, I find it hard to believe that anyone would seriously post ANY of these as supposed arguments to claim Paul was homosexual. I am left to wonder if you are serious, or just playing a time wasting game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
It is also important to note that some of these are not even scriptural.
I just didn't want you to rail at me to post the list again. I know how you get. And the more you deny the very real possibility of Paul's homosexuality, the sillier your comments get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
You claim a very real possibility - please show me a real argument. If you think that there is ANY credibility in that list, pick out the number one strongest argument and let's examine it from scripture (second time of asking).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I see once again when I disagree with you, you feel the need to go after me personally rather than deal with the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
What a guy! Such patience. Rather, please refute any/all of the items in the list, that they were not alluded to or stated by Paul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I have already refuted some, and showed you non-scriptural changes that you made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
So, which argument is, in your opinion, the strongest?
1. It is about the size of a marble.
2. It is usually reddish, purple, black, dark blue, yellow, pink, or green.
3. It growns on a vine.
4. Juice and wine can be made from it.
5. There may be a seed or seeds inside.
6. Jam and jelly can be made from it.
7. It can be eaten raw.
8. It is a fruit.
9. It can become a raisin.
10. Most varieties of this are native to the Mediterranean and Central Asia.
It is a ______________.
Here we go. The rollercoaster just left on its run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
You still cannot identify any strong arguments? Take your time, I can wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
You are so darn predictible, like Big Ben.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Right, I examine each argument based upon it's merits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
it's = it isQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
its = possessive pronoun
Don't feel bad. Excon has trouble with that one too.
Now if only you were so meticulous at examining the context of scripture, we might be able to conclude this discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
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