Yeah so the golden rule would not have likely started with 'them' since 'they' are not a 'they'.
|
Yeah so the golden rule would not have likely started with 'them' since 'they' are not a 'they'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
True, and Cred wasn't saying that the Golden rule originated from an Atheist, he's just saying that it didn't originally come from the bible.
I don't know who's right, I'm just here to learn. :)
Technically it didn't originate with Jesus or Christians
It originated with Moses and the Jews
Jesus simply put it in a simpler boiled down sentence.
I would be interested in finding the original history it would be interesting I am sure.
So far I found this
http://www.personal.kent.edu/~jwattles/GRquotes.htm
And
I did find on wikianswers
The Golden Rule "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a paraphrase of a line from Matthew 7:12 in the New Testament. Hillel's precept restates the idea more directly: Do not do unto others what you don't want done to yourself.
FURTHER
Hillel's version is certainly a precept that may follow. However, there is a difference between his advise and Jesus' "Golden Rule."
The words of Jesus to "Do unto others" is a proactive command, and for a positive benefit to others, that is "as you would have them do unto you." In other words, do something positive. ' Don't just sit there. Go and do good to others.'
Hillel's words are more passive, suggesting that 'you don't necessarily have to do anything good to others, just as long as you aren't doing anything bad to them, that's fine.'
The Golden Rules is as old as humanity : by serving the interests of the tribe or group you belong to, you serve your own interests just as well.
So it is much older than the time of "Moses and the Jews".
That is why you find the Golden Rule in almost every philosophic and/or religious view also.
Every religion from long before the era described in the Old Testament had the Golden Rule already as one of it's corner stones.
So the Golden Rule is part of us all, and surely did not originate from the Bible. The Bible just used the Golden Rule as almost all other religions did.
The Golden Rule started as a survival measure, but over time evolved also as basis for moral and ethical thinking.
Atheists use the Golden Rule for the above explained reasons, just as every religion does.
You do not need a supernatural entity to understand that if you are nice to others, your chances that others are nice to you do improve considerably...
:)
.
.
.
I agree and that is why I said it would be interesting to find the historic origins before Moses. I enjoy history of tribes and their customs.
Hello again:
You know, I'll betcha stone aged people practiced the golden rule even though they didn't have language and didn't even know that that's what they were doing. They were just surviving, and tribes wouldn't survive WITHOUT practicing that particular rule.
So, in my view, it's a survival thing rather than a religious thing.
excon
What I said, Cred, was that it was Biblical. You are claiming that it came from a source prior the source that the Bible got it from, and we are still waiting for you to validate your cute story about it's origins. But each time that we ask, you avoid the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Basically what I gathered when I asked my ? In post #117Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I figured you were claiming the first written proof of the golden rule was the Bible.
Sigh! So many people like to speak for others. I guess that is easier than asking questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I did not say that it originated in the Bible. - I am saying that it is a Biblical concept - I am saying that the God of the Bible is the source.
I am saying that Cred is unable to validate his story
I am saying that Cred is unable to show an older source.
When you find a similar concept in a variety of sources, though it is possible for it to have originated independently, it is more likely that it had a single source. In this case, it is clear that the God of the Bible is the source, and that is why we find it in the Bible. The Bible is therefore the record closest to the source, and therefore the remainder of the similar statement are secondary.
I did not say that either.Quote:
He claims that some Atheists do follow this rule but that it is not a set standard for them to live by, whereas it is a set standard for a Christian.
I said that it could be followed by anyone, but when you say that you treat others the way that you should be treated, it is relative to what you thing is an appropriate way to be treated. THus for an atheist, that can vary over time since there is no absolute standard of right and wrong. For a Christian there is an absolute standard - the Bible.
Actually I am saying that it is the God of the Bible since all scripture comes from God.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I am still waiting for you to show us an older source than the Biblical source. So far all you have done is made claims, opinions and show lists of documents that you say are older.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
And as I responded before, let's look at the two assumptions that come from this:
1) You are assuming that the source is not Biblical. So far you offered no evidence for that. You assume that some other documents are older than the first instance of this in the Bible, but you have not validated that statement.
2) Second, you have not validated why you believe the source to be not Biblical. This appears to be point that you have missed. Usually where similar things appear in difference document (and for the time being, let's assume that to be the case), it typically refers to a common source. All you have done is identify some documents that you claim to have existed and claim to have been older than the Bible (a point which remains unvalidated in any case), but you have not addressed the point that the source itself of the Bible is God, and in such a case, God would be the likely primary source.
Okay, just so I understand.Quote:
I did not say that it originated in the Bible.
I am saying that it is a Biblical concept.
I am saying that the God of the Bible is the source.
I am saying that Cred is unable to validate his story
I am saying that Cred is unable to show an older source.
So you're saying that before the bible was written the Golden rule came from God. How can you verify that?
You say it's a biblical concept, isn't that the same as saying that you believe it originated in the bible?
I think I'm missing something here. Please explain where I went wrong.
Well scripture says that it is inspired by God, and since God is omniscient, He did not get it from the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
No. It is Biblical because the Bible is the word of God. But the Golden rule came from God since all scripture is inspired by God. I think that we are dealing with semantics.Quote:
You say it's a biblical concept, isn't that the same as saying that you believe it originated in the bible?
Okay, I get what you're saying now.
Like I said, I have no idea where the Golden rule originated from, I'm just here to learn.
I'm sorry if I misquoted you I thought I had it right, that's why I wanted to clear it up, make sure I understand.
Peace. :)
That is why the only way to really answer this is to show written historic proof that a tribe before Moses time followed something that could be considered 'the golden rule. Otherwise this is going no where.
So all those other religions that have a similar moral have all been inspired by your god?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Some "Ethic of Reciprocity" passages from the religious texts of various religions and secular beliefs:
- Bahá'í Faith:
- "Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not." "Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself." Baha'u'llah
- "And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself." Epistle to the Son of the Wolf
- Brahmanism: "This is the sum of Dharma [duty]: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you". Mahabharata, 5:1517 "
- Buddhism:
- "...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353
- Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18
- Christianity:
- "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.
- "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.
- "...and don't do what you hate...", Gospel of Thomas 6. The Gospel of Thomas is one of about 40 gospels that were widely accepted among early Christians, but which never made it into the Christian Scriptures (New Testament).
- Confucianism:
- "Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23
- "Tse-kung asked, 'Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?' Confucius replied, 'It is the word 'shu' -- reciprocity. Do not impose on others what you yourself do not desire.'" Doctrine of the Mean 13.3
- "Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence." Mencius VII.A.4
- Ancient Egyptian:
- "Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE and may be the earliest version ever written. 3
- Hinduism:
- This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you. Mahabharata 5:1517
- Humanism:
- "(5) Humanists acknowledge human interdependence, the need for mutual respect and the kinship of all humanity."
- "(11) Humanists affirm that individual and social problems can only be resolved by means of human reason, intelligent effort, critical thinking joined with compassion and a spirit of empathy for all living beings. " 4
- "Don't do things you wouldn't want to have done to you, British Humanist Society. 3
- Islam: "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths." 5
- Jainism:
- "Therefore, neither does he [a sage] cause violence to others nor does he make others do so." Acarangasutra 5.101-2.
- "In happiness and suffering, in joy and grief, we should regard all creatures as we regard our own self." Lord Mahavira, 24th Tirthankara
- "A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated. "Sutrakritanga 1.11.33
- Judaism:
- "...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18
- "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.
- "And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15 6
- Native American Spirituality:
- "Respect for all life is the foundation." The Great Law of Peace.
- "All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." Black Elk
- "Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." Pima proverb.
- Roman Pagan Religion: "The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."
- Shinto:
- "The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form"
- "Be charitable to all beings, love is the representative of God." Ko-ji-ki Hachiman Kasuga
- Sikhism:
- Compassion-mercy and religion are the support of the entire world". Japji Sahib
- "Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259
- "No one is my enemy, none a stranger and everyone is my friend." Guru Arjan Dev : AG 1299
- Sufism: "The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.
- Taoism:
- "Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien.
- "The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49
- Unitarian:
"The inherent worth and dignity of every person;"
"Justice, equity and compassion in human relations.... "
"The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;"
"We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part." Unitarian principles. 7,8
- Wicca: "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what ever you will, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). One's will is to be carefully thought out in advance of action. This is called the Wiccan Rede
- Yoruba: (Nigeria): "One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."
- Zoroastrianism:
- "That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5
- "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29
Some philosophers' statements are:
- Epictetus: "What you would avoid suffering yourself, seek not to impose on others." (circa 100 CE)
- Kant: "Act as if the maxim of thy action were to become by thy will a universal law of nature."
- Plato: "May I do to others as I would that they should do unto me." (Greece; 4th century BCE)
- Socrates: "Do not do to others that which would anger you if others did it to you." (Greece; 5th century BCE)
- Seneca: "Treat your inferiors as you would be treated by your superiors," Epistle 47:11 (Rome; 1st century CE)
Yep. Even then that would not prove that it was not Biblical. When we are looking at things back that far, we have only minimal historic records, and we cannot say exactly when Moses received it either. Wew just know that it was earlier. As far as we know at the moment, Moses is the oldest recorded source.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I find it interesting how people like to twist what is said. I never said or even implied that the religions were inspired by God. But Biblical quotes or events recorded in the Bible no doubt were heard by others (such as the records of the global flood that we find in other sources), and passed along, though sometimes the wording or details may vary or get corrupted.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Wow NK, that's some list. :)
I think that we have to agree that every religion has some form of the Golden rule.
From what I've seen here, I have to say that I don't think that it originated with Moses. It makes sense that these words have been uttered in some form or another since the beginning of time, because really, they are words to live by.
No one has been able to validate a source older than the Biblical source. Note also that even if all the sources in that list are correct, not all are the same as the Golden rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Now Cred,Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
I AM sticking to the topic. You claim to follow the golden rule and I am giving you the opportunity of a lifetime here on AMHD. YOU a Atheist can actually apologize to me a Christian and thus PROVE that you all follow the "golden rule" You have falsely accused me and I am just waiting to here from you as to how very sorry you are. LOL I have a feeling I'm going to be waiting a long long long time aren't I? So anyway, you SAY you use it to live a proper life... I just don't see it in action. I think you just like to argue.:p That's OK.. I suppose there are some Christians that enjoy the argument as well.
Hello again, T:
Let me see, "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you". Hmmmm. It don't say nothing about doing what others EXPECT you to do...
I don't know. Am I missing something?
excon
Ex,
Hey, he said he followed the golden rule... I'd like to see it in action. I EXPECT it because he said he followed it. Am I WRONG? I don't think so...
Different societies and different cultures establish expectations as to what a person understands to be appropriate treatment. Children in such societies may grow up feeling that is what good treatment is because they have known nothing different. That will, of course, influence what they believe is appropriate treatment of others under this rule, assuming that they have ever heard of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello Tj:
Couple things... You keep thinking people need to "hear" of the golden rule before they can abide by it. I think all they need to do is EXPERIENCE it. It DOESN'T have to be spelled out. It's not something you read. It's something you DO.
Next; I'm baffled how you can discern expectations out of this rule. There just isn't anything about expectations in it. The cool thing about this rule, is that it has NOTHING to do with how others behave. It's only about YOU. Oh, I DO understand that you DO expect certain behaviors due to this rule, but I don't get why. Maybe if you Christians would actually LIVE by it, instead of EXPECTING everybody else to, we'd be better off.
excon
EX,
LOL LOL... yep if it weren't for those darned Christians this whole WORLD would run smoother... lol
Hello again, T:
As noted above, the only thing about those darn Christians is they have "expectations" of me, and how my society should be formulated. As noted above, you seem to have gotten all that out of the golden rule. For the life of me, I can't figure out how.
Tj seems to believe that without God, people wouldn't know how to behave. He believes that, I suppose, because in his own life, without the presence of God, he HIMSELF would possibly misbehave. So, certainly with that belief, he couldn't understand how people behave WITHOUT God in their lives.
But, the truth is there ARE people who behave without any spiritual guidance at all. It's kind of ingrained in them. It's the essence of the word civilized. We became civilized over the ages. We weren't uncivilized one day, and civilized the next.
As I said earlier, I think these behaviors are evolutionery - not religious.
excon
Ex,
From what I can tell of the golden rule, there are no expectations. You should treat people the way you want to be treated.. period. Jesus goes a step further and even says to turn the other cheek. Certainly there are no expectations there. What I take a slight issue with ( and I say slight because I am not the least bit upset really) is that Cred has said that as an atheist he lives by the Golden Rule. I don't really think for one min he is going to appologize to me. But for some crazy, strange, and weird reason.. I am enjoying buggin the heck out of him. He put it out there.. not me.
As for people living under the Golden Rule before Christianity, I don't doubt it one bit. But as Tj3 has said it is biblical. As a Christian it isn't a suggestion... it is a standard. Do I fall short? Yes sometimes I do.
AND I might add, that GOD made you Ex with a conscience. It doesn't matter if you believe in him or not... he gave you that knowing of right and wrong. You can call it evolutionery if you like. Doesn't bother me one bit.
But I do NOT understand why so many people dislike Christians. I am a nice person, you'd like me in real life. So would Cred. We just disagree on GOD. Cred has decided to have it out for me just because I am a Christian. I don't get it??
Hey,I'm not mad at you atheists because you are wrong.. why be mad at me because I'm RIGHT? ;)
Those statements are contradictory.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Re-read what I wrote there... I said that you can't say it is a Christian thing, but you CAN say it is a Christian thing, TOO... because it is in the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I have. And THAT is my belief. God, who created all that there is, had a hand in everything... of course, He is not necessarily as described by Christianity... or any Religion, for that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
However, He is the same God.
Not really. Everyone claims that people were following this rule long before Christ came into the world. In reality, it IS just common courtesy. BUT the Lord Jesus put his stamp of approval on it when he told us that we should treat people the way we would want others to treat us. That is how he ALWAYS lived his life. Look, if it were ingrained in us no one would have to call it the 'golden rule" it would be automatic. It doesn't come naturally to us, it doesn't me anyway, sometimes I kind of want to get even or revenge. I don't think I am any different than anyone else. Christian or non Christian. Does that make sense?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Read your daily newspapper and tell me if it is something that authomatically key into to.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
So, you are telling me that you don't think that the environment and culture that a person is brought in affects how they view proper treatment of people within the society.Quote:
Next; I'm baffled how you can discern expectations out of this rule. There just isn't anything about expectations in it.
We disagree. There are far too many examples of oppressive societies where some people or groups of people, or even women within the society are brought up with a mindset that they believe that they arae not deserving to be treated as having anay worth, so their definition of what good or even exceptional treatment is would be considered abusive by most of us.
That's exactly what we've been saying this whole thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
To say that it is not Christian would mean that you would have to prove that the God of the Bible is not the source.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJizzle
He cannot be the same God. There God of the Bible says that there are no other true gods. All other "gods" are demaons or idol, or faolse gods, according to scripture. Therefore, since He claims excluivity, any other gods cannot be the same God.Quote:
I have. And THAT is my belief. God, who created all that there is, had a hand in everything... of course, He is not necessarily as described by Christianity... or any Religion, for that matter.
However, He is the same God.
NK... I know! But where we differ is this.. I don't think it comes natural to us. I don't think people always want to do it and for the christian it isn't optional.. it is the STANDARD. I am guilty of not wanting to at times but I am called to. And Tj3 makes really good points... about environment and culture.
But like common sense, the world would be better off if it were in reality, more common! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Did you stop to consider he is abiding by the golden rule? That's he's not apologizing because he doesn't think he's wrong, and that's how he would want to be treated? That the way he behaves toward you is the way he would like to be treated? The golden rule imples niceness/forgiveness, but it doesn't require it. And why don't you turn the other cheek and let it go? Be the bigger person. That would be more Christ-like, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
If it were, in fact, held to be a standard, you wouldn't fall short, would you? Praying is a standard, going to church, having faith, believing in god, spreading your faith - those are all standards. Do you fall short on those too? Standard implies consistency, if you deviate (or if other Christians deviate from the standard), it's not a standard. It's a suggestion. Unless, of course, you want to argue it's a standard with a mathematical standard deviation... but that starts getting into some math and numbers I just don't care to examine!Quote:
As for people living under the Golden Rule before Christianity, I don't doubt it one bit. But as Tj3 has said it is biblical. As a Christian it isn't a suggestion... it is a standard. Do I fall short? Yes sometimes I do.
People dislike Christians because some of them (usually the most vocal ones) are pushy intolerant bigots who justify their actions and words under the guise of their religion and by hiding behind their god. Do all Christians behave this way? Of course not, but a few bad apples can ruin the bunch, right? If you eat Chinese food 100 times, from 100 different restaurants, and 99 times you get violently ill, will you have a favorable opinion of Chinese food? Probably not.Quote:
but I do NOT understand why so many people dislike Christians. I am a nice person, you'd like me in real life. So would Cred. We just disagree on GOD. Cred has decided to have it out for me just because I am a Christian. I don't get it??
Who's mad? But with an attitude like that, it's tough to make friends on the other side. And yes, I know you are being sarcastic. In my opinion though, using sarcasm in that manner is better left among friends. I'm not so sure you've made friends on the other side yet.Quote:
Hey,I'm not mad at you atheists because you are wrong.. why be mad at me because I'm RIGHT? ;)
I don't dislike Christians, I don't think Cred does either.Quote:
but I do NOT understand why so many people dislike Christians. I am a nice person, you'd like me in real life. So would Cred. We just disagree on GOD. Cred has decided to have it out for me just because I am a Christian. I don't get it??
What I dislike is when people tell me that my beliefs are not as good as theirs. They insist that they are right, I'm wrong. Is that treating others as you want to be treated? No!
Cred also thinks that you and SassyT are one and the same. I have to admit that I did as well in the beginning. I don't think you are SassyT, your writing styles are too different, you also aren't condescending like she was.
I don't think Cred is convinced that you aren't SassyT.
I don't hate anyone because of their beliefs, I don't "hate" anyone period. Hate is a strong word. How could I hate people I've never met? I do dislike the way some people on this site act. I do find it funny that the people that give me the hardest time about my beliefs are the Christians.
I think that everyone has the right to their own beliefs, it's not for any human to judge who is right and who is wrong. That's God's decision, and I don't believe that he would ever send someone to hell just because they were Deist, muslim, Atheist etc. instead of Christian.
If we were really following the Golden rule, wouldn't we be nicer to each other on this site? I doubt anyone wants to be treated badly, or do they?
You haven't known him long enough. Wait a few years until you have known him as long as I have and then if you don't see the consistent pattern over several years and several different boards, you aren't paying attention!Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
First, there is a difference between people disagreeing with your beliefs and treating you badly. You are NOT your beliefs.Quote:
What I dislike is when people tell me that my beliefs are not as good as theirs. They insist that they are right, I'm wrong. Is that treating others as you want to be treated? No!
Second, Christianity and many other religions hold to exclusivity. By saying that is wrong, you are doing what you say that we should not do. You are saying that by holding to exclusivity, that my belief, my religion is not as good as yours.
Study different societies and different types of people. In some societies, and even some denominational churches, they considered being treated badly to be a blessing (talk to a Roman Catholic about penance and flagellation) and some folk are just masochists.Quote:
I doubt anyone wants to be treated badly, or do they?
Jill,Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
You know what.. I was teasing with Ex. He KNOWS I was teasing and guess what Jill?. HE IS MY FRIEND. Shocking... I know.
AND maybe I haven't made friends with YOU but I have made friends on the "other side". Some people can actually look past the fact that I am a Christian and like me anyway. But I appreciate your thoughts...
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:59 PM. |