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As you wish Cred. I am prepared to stand on the facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Cred, you change whatever you think the topic is whenever things get uncomfortable for you.Quote:
They also have seen that I repeatedly tried to get the discussion back on-topic, and you are the one who - seeing your posts - refuses to do so.
Nobody cares what you stand on, Tommy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
What is however important is to always tell the truth. Specially in this specific topic...
And THAT you don't. You lie and you know it.
One thing we know : the truth will not be seen in your posts!!
Why do you insist to get classyT's topic closed for running off-topic?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Cred, I know you don't care what anyone else says, nor clearly about the truth based upon your false accusations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
I still see that you are not posting any validation! Emails sent to LDBC and CDR yet?
Tom, I'm interested in this quote by you;
I would love to see the evidence you have that shows that God wrote the bible.Quote:
I have evidence to the contrary, but that does not matter right now - your belief is that God did not write the Bible. Can you validate that claim?
Could you supply that evidence?
First, have you ever taken the time to study Biblical prophecy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Yes Tom, I went to Catholic school for 10 years, it was mandatory.
The funny thing is, even they taught us that the bible was at most "inspired" by God, but written by man. You are claiming that God wrote the bible, I'm interested to see your evidence for this, as you did state that you have evidence.
Okay, so you will know that that the Bible has about 2000 prophecies fulfilled exactly as given, with over 100 of these dealing specifically with the life of Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
The probabilities have been estimated at 1 in 10 to the power of 2000 of this occurring by chance.
Ah, I did not know that we were going to play with semantics. Let me word it for those who wish to be picky - God through the Holy Spirit provided the content by means of inspiration:Quote:
The funny thing is, even they taught us that the bible was at most "inspired" by God, but written by man. You are claiming that God wrote the bible, I'm interested to see your evidence for this, as you did state that you have evidence.
2 Peter 1:20-21
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV
Or as scripture puts it - all scripture is "God breathed"
2 Tim 3:15-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV
(The word used for inspiration is the Greek word theopneustos which means "God Breathed")
And God's word was penned by men. The word wrote, however remains accurate because even some of those who penned scripture used scribes to put pen to paper and yet it is they, because it is their input, the work is attributed to them by even secular sources, just as those authors today who make use of secretaries to assist in their work.
So, in other words, you're using the bible (which I believe was written by man and largely fictional) to prove that God inspired the bible?
I was hoping for unbiased proof. In other words, something other than the bible to prove the bible.
Your validation for these claims is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
BTW, the proof of the fulfillment of prophecy can be shown to be historical - or are you going to reject the historical record because it was written by men also?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
What's your validation?
Men are fallible, if you ask 10 people that all witnessed the same event, the accounts of that event will all be vastly different, and most will be largely exaggerated or untrue.
In other words, yes, I do reject the "historical records" of prophecy's that have been "fullfilled", because they were written by man.
I did not ask that - I asked do you reject the historical record.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
If you reject what men have recorded as history, or if you say that you reject anything accepted as historical record because it substantiates the Bible, then we have nothing to discuss because you then are saying that you believe only what you believe.
Of course taken to a logical conclusion, that means that you cannot even believe yourself because you too are human.
Oy vey.
No Tom, you specifically asked if I reject the historical records of fulfilled prophecies.
How about we make this easy, quote the records that you are referring to. Saying "historical records" is a bit vague.
I'm also not saying that everything in the bible is false, I'm just saying that people should use the brains that we have to decide what is true and what is to good to be true, or too outlandish to be true.
The bible is a mishmash of stories told by different men about Jesus. Are we to believe everything that was written? If so, why did all these miraculous events cease to exist? Have you witnessed anyone parting the sea? The great flood, anything that comes close to the miracles described in the bible?
Logically, if it sounds too good to be true, that's usually because it is.
I have a mind, I will not agree with something that doesn't make sense.
I believe in God, but not the bible.
Hmmmmm Alty : is that why I miss you here every Friday night ? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
As to Tj3's arguments and demands :
Tommy clearly is a man of double standards :
- from anyone with a non-Christian view he demands OSE for every word and letter of what is posted.
- for his own and peer views he only supplies and/or accepts wild claims and other unrelated arguments and references.
But I think you picked his balloon !
Just keep pushing him for DIRECT OSE for whatever he claims.
And hold back on going off-topic and ending up in an endless argument with Tommy about futilities he finds in your posts with which he tries to change direction in the conversation !
This topic is about "What is truth"?
The meaning of the word "truth" depends on how you approach the word.
The linguistic meaning of "truth" refers to the property of being in accordance with the actual state of affairs. And as the word "actual" refers to reality, it should refer to OSE as its only guideline.
Unfortunately in the religious field the words "true" or "truth" are used in and out of season to SUGGEST a level of accuracy, and in effect are used to provide some BOGUS VALIDITY to personal interpretations that are at best only covered by Subjective Supported Evidence.
In Tommy's posts you see the efffect of this bogus validaity reoccuring time and time again.
He SUGGESTS a lot but does NOT OSE support anything at all.
So do not look for "truth" in Tommy's posts. At least not while he continues in the way he has done here since his arrival.
You know that I respect anyone's personal BELIEF. But the moment people here start posting that what they BELIEVE is the "truth" , I clearly let them know that that is not "true" but an empty claim. For something to be "true" DIRECT OSE has to be provided. Nothing else will do.
:) :) :) :) :)
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Read more carefully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
What I said was, and I quote"...are you going to reject the historical record because it was written by men also?"
If you are going to reject anything which was written by men that disagrees with what you want to believe, why should I waste my time?Quote:
How about we make this easy, quote the records that you are referring to. Saying "historical records" is a bit vague.
Do you or do yolu not accept the historical record?
Then I would have to ask you what the basis is for judging what in the Bible is true and is not true.Quote:
I'm also not saying that everything in the bible is false, I'm just saying that people should use the brains that we have to decide what is true and what is to good to be true, or too outlandish to be true.
Grow up Cred. I wouldn't let my kids behave like you are when they were toddlers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Tommy : so you suggest that we level the playing fields right now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
A simple YES or NO will do !
If you agree, we can discuss the type and level of support from now onwards later.
If you do not agree : why do you question that you are a man of double standards ?
Face it Tommy : you can not have it both ways!!
:D :rolleyes: :) :p :rolleyes: :D
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I don't know what type of support that you are suggesting that you could give, but I am not looking for support from you, Cred.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Further, if you are saying that I must compromise the truth for you to behave like an adult, no that is not happening either.
Because your immature behaviour has nothing to do with whether I am speaking the truth. If you think that you can refute what I say, there is an open and level playing field for you to do so - bring forward some credible information and the sources and we can look at it.Quote:
If you do not agree : why do you question that you are a man of double standards ?
If you plan to throw a temper tantrum at anyone who disagrees with you, that speaks volumes about you, but does nothing to refute what I said.
The question was simple and easy : do we level the playing fields, and do we agree to use the same type and level of support from now onwards ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Don't you understand that, or do you prefer to stay a man of double standards, Tommy ?
I guess I already know what your answer will be , and what for man you are...
I fear my initial description of you hit the "truth" button...
:D :rolleyes: :) :p :rolleyes: :D
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And the answer was simple. Since we already have a level playing field, I don't know what type of support that you are suggesting that you could give, but I am not looking for support from you, Cred.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Further, if you are saying that I must compromise the truth for you to behave like an adult, no that is not happening either.
Because your immature behaviour has nothing to do with whether I am speaking the truth. If you think that you can refute what I say, there is an open and level playing field for you to do so - bring forward some credible information and the sources and we can look at it.Quote:
If you do not agree : why do you question that you are a man of double standards ?
If you plan to throw a temper tantrum at anyone who disagrees with you, that speaks volumes about you, but does nothing to refute what I said.
Why do you keep trying to distract from the topic? Do you fear dealing the issue?
No Tommy : we do NOT have a level playing field.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
You demand OSE from every opponent, while you provide only SSE yourself for your claims and suggestions.
Specially in a topic that is about "What is truth" a level playing field is essential.
But this little encounter has clearly shown to all that you refuse to debate on level terms.
I know your way of operation already many years, now all others know it too .
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Cred,Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
I got a good laugh out of that - no, it is you who keep asking and refuse to answer.
How you manage to distort reality like that is beyond me.
Tom
Tom,
Quote:
BTW, the proof of the fulfillment of prophecy can be shown to be historical - or are you going to reject the historical record because it was written by men also?
But how do I talk to him? If there really is a god...
Do I just say... god please appear before me... or something? Go somewhere quiet? Or whatttttt, I don't know this stuff.
I just got a call from my cousin, my grandmother is dying, she may not survive the night, definitely won't survive the week.
So, everyone, what is truth? I can tell you one absolute truth. We all live, and we all die. What we do between those two is up to us and only us.
Is there a God watching over us? Is there a heaven, is there a hell? In the end, does it really matter?
My parents prayed, read the bible, sent me to Catholic school, believed in God. When they got sick I prayed every night for a miracle, I wept, I was down on my knees, just one small miracle, let the cancer be gone, let them live.
They both died, then my grandmother, then my mother in law died, then a friends father died, and now my grandmother. In the last 7 years I've seen more death than most people see in their lifetime. I'm done.
If God exists, then why all this suffering? I've lived through more death then anyone else I know at my age. And don't tell me that everything happens for a reason, because the only thing that's happened is my saddness, my heartbreak, the loss of grandparents for my children, the loss of a relationship like no other. The loss of the people who gave me life, taught me love, gave me my backbone. Well, that backbone is getting weaker every time someone else dies.
I don't want to argue anymore. I'd rather shove bamboo sticks under my fingernails, it's more productive.
Good luck everyone, I have to go prepare a eulogy.
I am very sorry to hear about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
How can you be so sure of that?Quote:
So, everyone, what is truth? I can tell you one absolute truth. We all live, and we all die. What we do between those two is up to us and only us.
Yes, there is a God and yes it does matter. Indeed if there is even a chance that there is a God, isn't it important to find out and investigate the facts while we are yet alive and able to do so - while there is time? It is okay to say that we don't know, and indeed that is better than to deny that God exists as some do.Quote:
Is there a God watching over us? Is there a heaven, is there a hell? In the end, does it really matter?
The suffering is the result of sin. God created us perfectly, but we have all sinned and rebelled against God. When sin entered the world, death entered into nature, causing our bodies to age, die and decay.Quote:
If God exists, then why all this suffering?
That is why God came to earth as a man, to die on the cross that we might be reconciled to Him, and be able to restored by means of a glorified body which we receive when we die. God did not come to condemn, but to save us, and it is up to us to make the decision to receive Him as Lord and Saviour or reject His offer of reconciliation.
My wife has a brother who died without receiving Christ. It causes her grief to think of his fate, but Gopd has given us a promise:
Rev 21:3-4
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
NKJV
For those who have lost friends and relatives who are not saved. knowing that God will wipe away every tear is a great promise.
I hope that someday you will consider the gospel. I am always willing to go off line with you to discuss it anytime that you wish.
In the meantime, I will pray that God will comfort you, and your grandmother.
Alty,Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
The mere fact that the Jews are back in Israel after being scattered for almost 2000 years ( all of that was predicted in the Bible) is a miracle. Not only is it a miracle but God said that they would become a nation again in ONE day. Israel became a Nation again on May 14, 1948. It took ONE day. Can you name any race of people who have been scattered all over the world for over 2000 years who even know WHO they are?. let alone become a Nation again. Why did this happen? Because GOD said it would.
Daniels prophecies are so accrurate! He predicted that 4 world empires will come on the stage. He gave details that NO ONE could possibly know ahead of time. It is amazing. Course sceptics say that Daniel was written after the World empires and they NEED to believe that otherwise they may have to actually consider that the Bible is true. HOWEVER this is false. It is interesting because he described their rise and how they would be overthrown and by whom. Funny thing is... the LAST empire.. the Roman Empire was never overthrown and he predicted it. How could he have known that? I suppose Daniel who lived before Christ wrote it AFTER the fall of the Roman Empire. LOL That of course is impossible. AND Jesus himself called Daniel a prophet.
Those are only a few prohecies... every single thing the bible has recorded has happened or WILL happen. There are few prophecies that still need to be fulfilled. I actual believe they will be in my lifetime. Get this.. the Bible said that in the last days... Russia and Iran would become allies. Now for about 2500 years.. that hasn't been the case. IT IS NOW.
One last thing... men wrote the Bible but we read in Timothy that it was all inspired by God.
It is an awesome book. Don't take my word or tj3's or creed's word. Check it out for yourself and make your own mind up. I understand that you believe in God. Maybe not the way I do... but I'd like you to find out for yourself about the accuracy of the Bible. It is pretty cool book. Sorry this is so long. I get excited talking about it. :)
Alty, I just read your last post... I am SOOO sorry about your Grandmother! I hope you don't see my post as another argument because it was not intended to be.
Note that I was indicating that the historical record could be used to valid the fact that the prophecy in the Bible came to pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Yes, the secular historical record provides evidences of the fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
Cred,Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Yes you have been the PERSONIFICATION of that quote! HA HA HA HA HO HO and a harty har har! You should be on the comedy channel. I enjoyed that!!
You know the bible says a merry heart doeth good like a medicine. :p
Yes classyT : I respect everyone's religious views. What I do not respect are empty personal claims and suggestions that are made based on religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
You BELIEVE in "God", I say "ok". You CLAIM "God" exists, I say PROVE IT!!
How strange that you can not understand the basic difference between these two positions.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Really Cred,Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
Well I didn't see any respect in the statement below. I was wondering what the differences were in catholics and mainstream christianity. My personal belief was they were differenct.. FR_Chuck disagreed. This is what you HAD to say:
Quote by CRED: Why interfere with how other people interpret their Christian belief? Please stop this intolerance and "wise-acring"!
I was just asking a question. You didn't have an answer so you called my question intolerant and "wise-acring". That is YOUR idea of respect.:rolleyes:
Then again on a thread discussing Halloween and why some Christians think it is wrong to celebrate it... this is what YOU said.
Quote by Cred: If Christians in general would spend as much energy and time on improving their own approach towards others as some of them spend here on intolerant behaviour, heaven would exist, just here on a peacefull earth...
You are NOT respectful of Christians or their beliefs. You are NOT just here to get OSE, you are here to pick a fight and prove that you are more intelligent and TOLERANT ( LOL LOL) than the Christians. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
So, I will ask again... just because someone BELIEVES something... does THAT make it true?
The answer is NO. The proof is always in the pudding.:p
I use the Bible to back up my beliefs because it is TRUTH. It is right 100 percent of the time. Whether YOU think so or not. Strange isn't it that you can't get that concept.? Oh well maybe you aren't nearly as smart as you think you are... I don't know? Just throwing that suggestion out there.
Cred, I have known you for many years, and this is not an attribute that I have seen from you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
But then you are unwilling to look at the proof when give, nor are you willing to apply that same standard to your own BELIEFS.Quote:
You BELIEVE in "God", I say "ok". You CLAIM "God" exists, I say PROVE IT!!
Tom,
You haven't provided any proof, you've only provided things that you claim prove God simply because there's no other explanation yet.
Just because we don't know how something came to be doesn't mean it's automatically God. That's not logical.
That's exactly what I see from him as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Oh nk,Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Why do you tempt me so?. you know I could say something funny here. I won't. I am going to be nice. You think my humor is mean and sarcastic anyway. Or... no.. I think you called it "passive aggressive.".. LOL. Well, I have decided to be a kinder, gentlier classy T. ( at least until the Holidays are over) I get crabby in January. :p
Yup.I agree with Altenweg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I could argue just as logically that since I can't imagine why trees just happen to have a pigment (chlorophyll) that allows them to harvest solar energy, that proves any idea I can think of, including that the first land plants was the work of Aliens from the star system Sirius who terraformed the Earth 500 million years ago.
X is in the gaps means: "If you can't explain it with your hypothesis, then mine is right, and I don't have to explain how my hypothesis explains anything."
You said that you would reject even the record of history is it valdiated prophecy, so there is no way to meet your standard of truth - once we meet it, you reject the evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
If you want evidence, you must be willing to acceptb evidence that may disagree with what you want to believe.
No one said that. No one put that forward as an argument. You are therefore using the fallacy of a strawman argument.Quote:
Just because we don't know how something came to be doesn't mean it's automatically God. That's not logical.
No Tom, not true.
Historical documents do not prove God's existence, no matter how much you want it to.
You see what you want to see, not what is factual. If that's what you need in order to justify your belief, then fine.
I'm done arguiing, I have more important things to do, like planning my Oma's funeral as she passed away last night.
Continue fighting this losing battle, I'm done.
Alty out.
How is she misrepresenting your argument? You DO believe that that things are so complex that only a god could have created them; is that not correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/attach...9&d=1226356504
[See 1 Cor 15:54]
OeT
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