Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

The problem within "Christendom" is the simple fact that some accept the Bible, and some accept their tradition. There will never be a meeting of the minds. Time will prove which view is correct.

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Fortunately most Christians are rather tolerant believers, minding their own business.

All that will be revealed by time is the unending intolerance of religious fanatics.

:rolleyes:

.

Galveston, are you saying that time will tell that you are correct?

What about the Jews, they to think they're right, as do the Muslims, the Lutherans, The Baptists. Every religion thinks their faith is the right one, the only way. What makes you think that you're right?

Like I've said before, someone has to be wrong. What if we are all wrong, there is no God, no heaven, no afterlife? What if you just die and that's it, you're worm food?

I want to believe in heaven, I have to or I'll go crazy. The thought that I'll never again see my parents, that we won't meet after I die, that's too much to bear. But am I right? I'm not as sure as you seem to be, I wish I was.

Part of belief is accepting that it is only belief, because no one has ever been able to prove the existence of God. I do believe, but I'm not going to say that I'm absolutely right, because I can't. No one can.

Yes, time will tell, and by that time it won't matter, it's not like you can come back and tell anyone that you were right, if you are.

Galveston1,
I think that those who accept the bible AND holy tradition that the Holy Ghost inspired will be viewed by God as correct.
That is my belief and that of a great many other Christians.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Reference : Post # 109
"Smoked" turns out to be omniscient in judging others towards their religious intentions and belief experience.

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I have done nothing of the sort.. All I have done is pointed out the mere fact that the bible contradicts with that particular religions views and traditions. I love the wild inferences though. Sekt! Sparkling whine!:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Out goes Final Judgment, as activist "christians" here are now deciding in their arrogant and intolerant manner who is Christian or not.
Next step is of course to dump the involved deity also in all three available versions, as our activist "christian" friends do not need these any longer in their "wisdom" and smallmindedness : they seem to believe they are omniscient themself !!!

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You assume much as usual. I make no decision. The bible is clear and should be the only resource on the topic of how to be saved (as it pertains to Christianity). It also clearly warns about adding or taking away from its words. People are free to believe and do as they please. But, on this topic regarding Christianity, the bible would be the authority to turn to.

Of coarse others have their own books, ideas, but... that wasn't the question now was it MR/MRS Cred? The questions that was posed to me was "are catholics cristians?". I read a great post from Gavl that sums it up. "The problem within "Christendom" is the simple fact that some accept the Bible, and some accept their tradition.". If someone believes in the bible as the inspired word of god and believes Christ died on the cross for their sins then I would say "yes", they are Christians. Add anything to that, make up some new rules as you go, anything else, I would say "no'...

Why? Because pertaining to this question the bible is clear. There is only one way to the father. No where did I say that I have anything to do with that fact.

Is that because I have some self imposed belief? No, that is because the bible states it. The bible which is the document that Christians use to define the faith. The document that is clear. Clear in the Hebrew, in the Greek, and once in a while in a English translation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

I hate to break it to "Smoked" but may it not be that whatever "Smoked" believes is nothing more than a personal version of the Christian religion? A pure sektarian belief itself ???

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If you meant sectarian (adj), while probably a poor choice in words, the criteria for Christianity is narrowly defined in the bible. If you meant it as a noun.. I think that would be used better to describe you sir/mrs cred. If you meant it as some sort of sparkling whine then I will let you explain that particular inference.

Why did you cherry pick this post but never respond to the previous questions I asked you?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Like I've said before, someone has to be wrong. What if we are all wrong, there is no God, no heaven, no afterlife? What if you just die and that's it, you're worm food?

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Alt,
That is truly a beautiful question. I look at it like this. If I am right, then I am good to go. If I am wrong then what did I waste? Being a better person? I worked hard, took care of my family, did all the things that non-believers did, what did I loose out on? If I am right, based on my beliefs, my trust in the lord, my trust in his inspired word, I inherit the kingdom of heaven.

I am sure a lot of religions, and people in them feel the same way.

Quote:

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If I am wrong then what did I waste?

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Time
Money
Thinking for yourself
Holding back science education
Just to name a few.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smoked

If I am wrong then what did I waste?

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A life of being divisive towards your fellow man.
Telling people they were wrong when they weren't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sassyT

Science is only beginning to catch up on what God had man record in the Bible from ancient times. The Bible never claims to be a Science text book but when it does speak on nature, biology physics etc it is absolutely accurate. So what has taken man thousands of years to gain wisedom of, has been in the Bible all along. here are just a few examples..


1. Numbering the stars.

Genesis 15:5 says the stars cannot be numbered by man. Jeremiah 33:32 explains the stars are beyond numbering. And yet before the telescope was invented, man was numbering the stars. Hipparchus said in 150 B.C. there are exactly 1,026 stars. 150 years later a Roman named Ptolemy said there are 1,056, Kepler counted 1,006. Since Galileo invented the telescope in 1608, we continued to discover more stars. Up until the last few hundred years until the discovery of the telescope there were only 6,000 stars seen by the naked eye. A modern telescope of 200 inches estimates 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone. And there are not millions but billions of such galaxies. The Biblical scientific insights were far in advance of four modern day science. Today, with our technology and high powered telescopes in space and astronomers estimate that there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy with an additional 20-100 billion galaxies in the universe!

2. The Bible had refuted the flat earth theory long before scientists actually disproved it
Isaiah 40:20 says "He sits enthroned above the sphere of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." For centuries, man believed that the earth was flat. Christopher Columbus was criticized for setting sail to the other side of the earth, they expected Columbus to sail off the edge of the earth. When people thought it was flat God told us it was round. If they only read the Bible...

3. The Earth's Suspension in Space
Job 26:7 says "He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." Early man thought Atlas, a huge turtle or elephants held up the earth. Today we know it is gravity that holds the planets and stars in their orbits making them appear to be hung on nothing.

4. The water Cycle
In recent history science taught that most clouds are formed by evaporation of water from the ocean, but the Bible recorded this centuries ago. Ecclesiastes 1:6-7 says "The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. "
“The phrase, 'the wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course' is an accurate and astonishing description of the circular flow of air around the earth, called the 'jet stream,' well known to anyone who watches the evening news weather reports
Job 36:27 "For He draws up the droplets of water, They distill rain from the mist, Which the clouds pour down, They drip upon man abundantly." The condensation and evaporation only known in recent years.


5. Oceanic Hydrothermal vents
These are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.
Job 38:16 tells us there are springs in the sea (this was not known until 1913 when they found underground rivers).
Genesis 7:11 "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened"

6. Ocean Currents
....and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas. (Psalms 8:8) we now know there are ocean currents and that many fish swim the paths of these currents.

7. The Bible also says that each star is unique.


1 Corinthians 15:41 says
"There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory."
All stars look alike to the naked eye.* Even when seen through a telescope, they seem to be just points of light. However, analysis of their light spectra reveals that each is unique and different from all others.

just to say a few...

Bottomline.. God knew all along cause He made it all :)

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My question is,, of all these miracles and scientific impossibilities that happened in biblical times, why do we not see these in modern times? Did all these miracles cease after the bible was completed? What made starving peasents so special? I want to see some mind blowing miracles also, so I have proof and can believe. Let's see Oprah walk on water. Let's see Carrot-top turn water into wine. I want to see 50,000,000 animals stuffed onto a small boat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrwild62

My question is,,,, of all these miracles and scientific impossibilities that happened in biblical times, why do we not see these in modern times? Did all these miracles cease after the bible was completed?

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That's a very good question!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sassyT

Science is only beginning to catch up on what God had man record in the Bible from ancient times. The Bible never claims to be a Science text book but when it does speak on nature, biology physics etc it is absolutely accurate. So what has taken man thousands of years to gain wisedom of, has been in the Bible all along. here are just a few examples..


1. Numbering the stars.

Genesis 15:5 says the stars cannot be numbered by man. Jeremiah 33:32 explains the stars are beyond numbering. And yet before the telescope was invented, man was numbering the stars. Hipparchus said in 150 B.C. there are exactly 1,026 stars. 150 years later a Roman named Ptolemy said there are 1,056, Kepler counted 1,006. Since Galileo invented the telescope in 1608, we continued to discover more stars. Up until the last few hundred years until the discovery of the telescope there were only 6,000 stars seen by the naked eye. A modern telescope of 200 inches estimates 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone. And there are not millions but billions of such galaxies. The Biblical scientific insights were far in advance of four modern day science. Today, with our technology and high powered telescopes in space and astronomers estimate that there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy with an additional 20-100 billion galaxies in the universe!

2. The Bible had refuted the flat earth theory long before scientists actually disproved it
Isaiah 40:20 says "He sits enthroned above the sphere of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." For centuries, man believed that the earth was flat. Christopher Columbus was criticized for setting sail to the other side of the earth, they expected Columbus to sail off the edge of the earth. When people thought it was flat God told us it was round. If they only read the Bible...

3. The Earth's Suspension in Space
Job 26:7 says "He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." Early man thought Atlas, a huge turtle or elephants held up the earth. Today we know it is gravity that holds the planets and stars in their orbits making them appear to be hung on nothing.

4. The water Cycle
In recent history science taught that most clouds are formed by evaporation of water from the ocean, but the Bible recorded this centuries ago. Ecclesiastes 1:6-7 says "The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. "
“The phrase, 'the wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course' is an accurate and astonishing description of the circular flow of air around the earth, called the 'jet stream,' well known to anyone who watches the evening news weather reports
Job 36:27 "For He draws up the droplets of water, They distill rain from the mist, Which the clouds pour down, They drip upon man abundantly." The condensation and evaporation only known in recent years.


5. Oceanic Hydrothermal vents
These are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.
Job 38:16 tells us there are springs in the sea (this was not known until 1913 when they found underground rivers).
Genesis 7:11 "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened"

6. Ocean Currents
....and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas. (Psalms 8:8) we now know there are ocean currents and that many fish swim the paths of these currents.

7. The Bible also says that each star is unique.


1 Corinthians 15:41 says
"There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory."
All stars look alike to the naked eye.* Even when seen through a telescope, they seem to be just points of light. However, analysis of their light spectra reveals that each is unique and different from all others.

just to say a few...

Bottomline.. God knew all along cause He made it all :)

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SassyT. You said,, Bottomline.. God knew all along cause He made it all.
If God knew,, why did he create something that he KNEW he was going to have to destroy many times over? Why did a perfect God create something so imperfect to begin with? Why did he create evil in the first place? It just seems like he could have came up with a better plan before he Banged it into existence.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

That's a very good question!

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NeedKarma,, I think it is too.

But with these questions, as I have seen many times in the past, I will be booted for the debate. They have no practical answers and I am gone from here. They simple kick you to avoid answering questions. That's the Christian way. See you...

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Originally Posted by Smoked

I have done nothing of the sort.

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You stated in Post # 109, referring to Catholicism :

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Unfortunately people equate Christianity to this nonsense.

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"Nonsense" : That is an insult to more than 1 Billion (Roman) Catholic Christians, more than half of all Christians.

:rolleyes:

.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

A life of being divisive towards your fellow man.
Telling people they were wrong when they weren't.

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But wait, no god then when we die we would not even be aware of our mistake. Or are you saying you believe in a afterlife, just not the one that I believe?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smoked

But wait, no god then when we die we would not even be aware of our mistake. Or are you saying you believe in a afterlife, just not the one that I believe?

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Without a god you are not aware of the mistakes you make? That's odd, I don't need a god to tell me when I've made a mistake.
I said nothing of an afterlife, it doesn't enter into the discussion.

Jrwild62,
Miracles are taking place often during these days and have been for many, many years.
I've seen some.
Many people have seen some or experienced them.
There are thousands of accounts and authentic records of miraculous happenings.
Some were quite spectacular.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Well that's all the proof anyone needs.

Need karma,
Yes it is for most people.
Fred

I also healed a person who was dying. It was wonderful.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I also healed a person who was dying. It was wonderful.

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If that is true, that must be a wonderful feeling. Tell us why you did, what you did, and how you did that, please.

As unpaid volunteer I assist patients during their last couple of weeks of their life here in the local hospes. I have never seen any such miracle healings. All patients die. Sad, but a fact.
I do not believe in miracles...

:(

The other issue with Pascal's wager is we all could be wrong. There are more gods than just the Christian god. You could be sent to a hell worse than me because the real god feels that believing in a false god is worse than not believing at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by michealb

The other issue with Pascal's wager is we all could be wrong.

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Pascal's wager was proved to be false as validation for Christianity. It is strange that so many Christians do not seem to know that...

:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Without a god you are not aware of the mistakes you make? That's odd, I don't need a god to tell me when I've made a mistake.
I said nothing of an afterlife, it doesn't enter into the discussion.

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How sir would you be aware of a mistake in death with out afterlife? Please explain?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

You stated in Post # 109, referring to Catholicism :

"Nonsense" : That is an insult to more than 1 Billion (Roman) Catholic Christians, more than half of all Christians.

:rolleyes:

.

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Let me jump right onto wiki and fix that definition for you so that it reflects correct data.

I want to believe in miracles. :)

I have seen many things in my life that cannot be explained. I wouldn't go so far as to call them miracles though.

As for an afterlife. I want to believe that heaven exists. Am I convinced that it does? No, sadly I'm not.

Is there a place where my parents are, where they are waiting for me, where we will be reunited? God I hope so. But once again, if there isn't, then it won't matter a lot after I die, in fact it matters more to me now then it will then.

NeedKarma
Good for you.
I DO believe in miracles for I have seen some.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smoked

How sir would you be aware of a mistake in death with out afterlife? Please explain?

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I don't understand what you mean by "a mistake in death", can you explain please?

[QUOTE=NeedKarma;1284903]
Telling people they were wrong when they weren't.[/QUOTE

Sorry, let me explain. If I am telling people they are wrong how would I ever know unless there is some afterlife? No one would know until they die. So if you are right and there is no afterlife then what will it matter? It won't... but back to other point. Are you suggesting there is life after death? Just not the one that I believe in?

You don't consider that telling people they are wrong is perhaps a little insulting to them? All I hear is you talking about yourself.

I didn't suggest anything about an afterlife though I don't believe there is one.

God created free moral agents. If you are free, you can choose wrong. Anything else is merely a robot.

Angels are free moral agents too, and we have a long history on one of them who chose wrong.

So no, (in the sense you use it) God did not create evil. He created beings that can choose to be evil.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

God created free moral agents.

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Correction : you BELIEVE that the clamed-to-exist God entity created "free moral agents".

:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

God created free moral agents. If you are free, you can choose wrong. Anything else is merely a robot.

Angels are free moral agents too, and we have a long history on one of them who chose wrong.

So no, (in the sense you use it) God did not create evil. He created beings that can choose to be evil.

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Well, that's a bit mean of him, isn't it?

In other words, he gave us free will but it is our job to find the right way, to find God, to worship him? Why so many options? It really isn't fair to create free moral agents, give them all these options and then condem them if they make the wrong choice.

Altenweg,
When we raised our kids we told them what was right and wrong.
It was their choice whether to follow the right path or not and what the consequences of their choice would be.
I believe God did the same with us through His word, the bible.
To top that off he gave us a conscience to help guide us.
I have so much faith in that that I am sure of it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I respect your right to believe that Fred, I really do, but I disagree.

I do not believe that the bible is the word of God, merely the word of man, therefore I do not base my beliefs on the bible, nor do I choose a path based on the bibles teachings.

But, for the sake of conversation, the bible, if the basis of your beliefs, is not clear on which religion is the correct one.

Of course every religion that uses the bible as the basis for their belief claims that the bible clearly states that their religion is the correct one.

So, who is right?

The problem with the bible is that it isn't clear. Why? Because it was written by man. If God had written the bible then the instructions therein would be clear as a bell.

Now conscience I do possess, and I use it well. I have chosen a different path than you, and that's fine. If heaven exists I'm sure that God will see fit to admit all good people into paradise, no matter which path they chose.

Peace. :)

Altenweg,
I was already aware of you beliefs which I respect for you.
I was merely expressing mine and hoping you and others who read it understood why.
I also believe that God inspired men (in their time, culture and understanding) to write what is now in the bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I too am aware of your beliefs Fred, and though I don't agree I do respect your right to believe that. :)

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. :)

Peace.

Altenweg
Agree to disagreem,
Yes.
It is nice to get along.
Nice is good.
Fred

Now that I agree with. :)

Peace. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrwild62

SassyT. You said,,,, Bottomline.. God knew all along cause He made it all.
If God knew,,,, why did he create something that he KNEW he was going to have to destroy many times over?

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What are you asking me for? I am not God. Ask Him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jrwild62

My question is,,,, of all these miracles and scientific impossibilities that happened in biblical times, why do we not see these in modern times? Did all these miracles cease after the bible was completed? What made starving peasents so special? I wanna see some mind blowing miracles also, so I have proof and can believe. Let's see Oprah walk on water. Let's see Carrot-top turn water into wine. I wanna see 50,000,000 animals stuffed onto a small boat.

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Such miracles happen all the time! I was in healing service once where I witnessed a blind eyes open, a paralytic healed, and I also witnessed with my own eyes a child who had one leg shorter that the other, his leg grew 2 inches right before our eyes. Miracles happen all the time, the dead are even raised! Nothing is impossible to them that believe. I see miracles happen in my own life. But of course to you that is all fake.. go figure :rolleyes: