Yeah right... :rolleyes: don't lie to yourselfQuote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
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Yeah right... :rolleyes: don't lie to yourselfQuote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
That is the truth. I do not lie. I do not have to lie... Unlike you...Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyT
:D :rolleyes: :p ;) :D
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Sassy, in all fairness, Cred isn't lying, he does offer allot of advice on the technical boards.
Also, remember, the religious boards are for discussion amongst all faiths, that includes not believing in God. The Christianity board is for discussions about God with other like minded people, and Cred doesn't go on the Chrsitianity board, only the religious board.
So, open mind, otherwise yet another thread will be closed.
I realize this is a religious board, but is it not for questions and answers. To answer the question posted, not for mocking the ones who are trying to answer or discuss the question sincerely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Than why do you post the way you do??Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
:rolleyes:
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That is true, but unfortunately there is allot of mocking on both sides, you do have to admit that.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
I was just pointing out a bit of truth, I do apologize for not sticking to the subject at hand, but that was already happening before I posted.
My purpose for posting was to clarify, trying to end the ensuing argument so that you all could get back to the original post.
Peace. :)
You said: About half of all my posts are on the technical boards, and about all others are on the members discussion boards, with most of those on this religious discussions board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
My response to this is: why?
It is not nonsense, you admit it is true. Can you tell me why you spend about half your time on religious sites? There must be something that keeps drawing you here as you keep asking for proof, it seems to me you are searching for a reason to believe.
Babbling? Why would you use this word to describe what I said? Babbling: Utter meaningless sounds, like a baby, or utter in an incoherent way.
I made myself very clear.
You admit it is true.
I do not have paranoia…I do have some problems but paranoia is not one of them. This was an unnecessary (attempt at a) put down.
I did not take offense; I am just pointing them out. If you have such disgust for Christians, why do you spend most of your time on religious discussion board? Can you answer that? No you can’t or you won’t…….
You posted what you believed …I countered showing you that your beliefs are also based on faith, and you cannot prove them either. To which you responded with insults.
So, now I have responded to your questions,I hope I have answered them to your satisfaction although they had nothing to do with the topic... will you answer me now?
Why is it you cannot prove what you believe? Yet you insist Christian should prove what we believe. You have been told a thousand times, and you have told us a thousand times... it is our belief, it is what we believe and it is by faith. We already know that, you do not need to keep telling us. We know it is by faith; we keep trying to get you to understand that we know it is by faith. Christianity is based on faith. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. There is a reason we cannot prove it…. then we would not need faith. Faith is the answer to the question you keep asking, in fact you answer your own questions... the answer is faith. We know it is what we believe, we know it is our belief. We have told you we that we cannot explain spiritual things to a carnal mind, you are just incapable of understanding it. That is not a put down; it is a simple fact. A person cannot explain faith to someone who does not want to understand or believe.
Spiritual things must be spiritually discerned. We do not need to prove it to you or anyone. Faith is what pleases God, because if we could prove it, we would not need faith, and we could not please God. This is what I believe. I know it is what I believe, and I cannot prove it. There is no proof. That is the way God intended it; we are saved by grace through faith. Without faith,…we could not be saved, and we could not please God. We do not have to prove to you that there is a God Who created the universe and everything in it. We do not have to prove God to you. We should be allowed the courtesy to discuss our beliefs without someone constantly telling us that is what we believe and there is no objective supported evidence…we do not care about evidence. We have the force of faith; and that is more powerful and wonderful than ‘evidence’.
The Word says: Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. So then faith is our evidence.
I am not saying you do not have the right to post here, or even that you are not welcome, but to constantly repeat to us, what we have agreed with you that you are right, is childish taunting. It’s like, OK we know already…what’s your point? Why don't you ask what you really want to know?
However…you say you believe in science, you gave Pascal’s wager as your objective supported evidence, you believe in history, You told me why you did not believe in the OT or the NT. To which I responded politely trying to explain these things to you. You did not respond to any of it, except to insult me, or at least you tried.
Now, do you have a responds to these:
you said Theism, you and all your theist peers can not provide any objective supported evidence towards the existence of their deity. I said Theistic evolution, less commonly known as evolutionary creationism, is the general opinion that some or all classical religious teachings about God and creation are compatible with some or all of the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. Theistic evolution is not a theory in the scientific sense, but a particular view about how the science of evolution relates to some religious interpretations. In this way, theistic evolution supporters can be seen as one of the groups who deny the conflict thesis regarding the relationship between religion and science; that is, they hold that religious teachings about creation and scientific theories of evolution need not be contradictory. Psychology provides good reasons why the idea of a "fatherlike" god entity and of an afterlife helps many people to come to terms with disaster, illness, death, and the wish to see again those who over the years fell away. So, this is supposed to be evidence. Good reasons are not proof. Good reasons are opinions; it is what they believe. But you do not explain what those ‘good reasons’ were.
Why would that be a bad thing anyway?
Pascal himself didn't address the question of other religions in his section on the wager, presumably because throughout the rest of Pensées (and in his other works) he examined alternatives, like stoicism, paganism, Islam, and Judaism, and concluded that if any faith is correct, it would be the Christian faith.
And your response is...
My response to that is : WHY NOT?Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
You AND I are both allowed to post on this discussion board. So why do I have to defend my presence and activities here?
My line of approach is NOT to ask for proof for your religious BELIEF. I always first ask everyone to acknowledge that whatever he/she religiously believes is just that : BELIEF !Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
Only when they refuse to do that in previous posts, I ask them to back up their statements by providing proof for whatever they CLAIM to be true.
As to your "babbling" : I never have seen you to be a clear and meaningful communicator. You even at times use "misrepresentations of the truth" to support your own statements. (For instance with "You admit it is true" - No I did NOT do that ! ).
Another "misrepresentation of the truth"! Yes I can, and yes I did. Many times before.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
Besides that this is a RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION BOARD where Christians have the same status as I have (we are all no more than participants in discussions on religion), I have no disgust for Christians at all. From me you may BELIEVE what ever suits you. My basic message here is that whatever you BELIEVE that does not elevate your views into reality. To convince others from what you BELIEVE to be reality is up to you and co-BELIEVERS who have to prove that what they BELIEVE is reality. And in that process I do not have to prove the opposite.
===
You can make your posts as long as you want. But I limit my responses.
Specially as I note that you still did not reply to the two simple questions I asked you :
- What TOTAL NONSENSE is that ?
- WHAT FOLLOWING are you babbling about?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Now, do you have a responds to these:Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
you said Theism, you and all your theist peers can not provide any objective supported evidence towards the existence of their deity. I said Theistic evolution, less commonly known as evolutionary creationism, is the general opinion that some or all classical religious teachings about God and creation are compatible with some or all of the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. Theistic evolution is not a theory in the scientific sense, but a particular view about how the science of evolution relates to some religious interpretations. In this way, theistic evolution supporters can be seen as one of the groups who deny the conflict thesis regarding the relationship between religion and science; that is, they hold that religious teachings about creation and scientific theories of evolution need not be contradictory. Psychology provides good reasons why the idea of a "fatherlike" god entity and of an afterlife helps many people to come to terms with disaster, illness, death, and the wish to see again those who over the years fell away. So, this is supposed to be evidence. Good reasons are not proof. Good reasons are opinions; it is what they believe. But you do not explain what those ‘good reasons’ were.
Why would that be a bad thing anyway?
Pascal himself didn't address the question of other religions in his section on the wager, presumably because throughout the rest of Pensées (and in his other works) he examined alternatives, like stoicism, paganism, Islam, and Judaism, and concluded that if any faith is correct, it would be the Christian faith.
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../amh...tation_pos.gif
As to your "babbling" : I never have seen you to be a clear and meaningful communicator.:confused:
And this is not babbling?:confused:
It is just your opinion, your belief, and that means nothing to me.
You keep trying, Cred, but you cannot get to me.:p
I have never seen you answer the hard questions.
:rolleyes:
How long before you stop trying to get to him?Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
He gave me a list of reasons he does not believe in God,these were suppose to be proof that God is not real.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Pascal himself didn't address the question of other religions in his section on the wager, presumably because throughout the rest of Pensées (and in his other works) he examined alternatives, like stoicism, paganism, Islam, and Judaism, and concluded that if any faith is correct, it would be the Christian faith.
I showed him that every one of them were just his belief and were fallible, and even that those he holds in such high regard actually acknowledged that the Christian belief has the most credibility. He chose to ignore all this and attack me with childish tactics to throw me off the subject.
He keeps asking for proof, I was trying to show him in that post that even though we cannot ‘prove’ God is real and we can only go by our faith, the ‘evidence’ he gave to prove his opinions were actually helpful in proving our faith has some validity even in his world.
We have told him that we cannot prove God, and we know it is only our belief. How many times does he need this explained to him? He insists that we have to ‘prove’ our belief; I am just curious why he wants proof? Is it because he wants to believe? Is he looking for a reason to believe? I think so. I also know we do not have to prove our belief, just because he says so.
I do not understand why you ask me this. I am being much kinder to him than I feel toward him, but the Holy Spirit restrains me to a point. I was in the past a hateful B, and much worse, but God saved me anyway. I am trying to be a better person; I do not always succeed. I am sorry if I offended you or Cred, but he insists on getting personal with me, attacking my mental status, my writing abilities and making fun, mocking me, all completely off topic.
I never said I was perfect and in this life, I never will be in the flesh. However, I am perfect in Christ that is what I believe. I believe Christ died for the ungodly that included the whole world. Those that do not accept Christ and His sacrifice will miss eternal life and inherit eternal damnation.
If I can ‘get to him’ in a way that causes him to ‘think’ about it, that would be a good thing would it not?
Tsila, you are making excuses, sorry, but it's true.
The fact is that you will not convince Cred of God without Objective Supportive Evidence, therefore, any attempt to prove God by other means is pointless. You seem to remember everything else he's said, did the request for OSE slip by?
Just because he doesn't believe, doesn't mean that you have to listen to his reasoning. You believe, isn't that enough?
Of course you cannot prove God, I don't think anyone can, that's why it's a belief. I believe too, I understand what belief entails.
Is he looking for a reason to believe? Maybe, with OSE, but not by any other means.
I see this thread being closed very soon if this continues. Both of you are attacking each other, feeding off your differing opinions. I understand that too. I've fought with Cred before, but I won't anymore, I can't provide the evidence he seeks, so why fight about it? Can he be rude, yes, he can, so can allot of other people, myself included, and you as well. You're giving as good as you get dear, and that's how it will continue, until the thread is closed.
I'm not Christian, so maybe I'm wrong, but there is a difference between spreading the "word" of God and shoving it down someone's throat. Especially if that person has repeatedly told you that they do not believe. This will not end the way you want. In fact, the longer you continue posting, the more frustrated you will be, that's a fact.
If you "get to him"? Can I ask you something? Is he "getting" to you? Are you going to stop believing in God because of Creds posts? If not, then what makes you think he will believe because of yours? Is it a struggle between you two? Who can be the rudest, who can sling the most mud? Well, my question is this, who will turn the other cheek, and walk away?Quote:
If I can 'get to him' in a way that causes him to 'think' about it, that would be a good thing would it not?
Will it be the Christian or the Atheist?
If you "get to him"? Can I ask you something? Is he "getting" to you? Are you going to stop believing in God because of Creds posts?
No, in fact I think, I will just ignore him, since it is pointless to try to have a normal conversation with him anyway. And I was not making excuses. I really wanted to know what he had say, but he won't say... so you're right what's the point?
Glad to hear it. I really am just trying to step in before War insues. I value your opinion, and I respect your right to believe what you want.
No one can take away what you believe, what's in your heart. Just remember that and you'll be fine.
God Bless. :)
No need to "step in". I also have decide to return to my fixed routine to point out what is based on BELIEF and what is based on OSE (Objective Supported Evidence).Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
As I have always stated : from me anyone may BELIEVE whatever suits him or her. What is however incorrect is suggesting or assuming - even on this board - that what one believes is also the truth (or reality, or correct, or factual, or proper, etc.)
What one BELIEVES may be correct, but if it is that requires OSE, not belief, or other claims, or suggestive support !
Nobody has for me to prove that whatever god(s) exist(s). But if you don't or can't prove that (and nobody can), than at least do not make statements that suggest that or include such a claim.
Your topic line is excellent. Fine that you believe that. But actually he did not do that. Jesus was a Jew, who preached mainly to Jews!
:rolleyes:
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Fine that you believe that. But actually he did not do that. Jesus was a Jew, who preached mainly to Jews!
Prove it!!
Sorry Altenweg
Tsila, you don't have to be sorry, it's your choice, and you do have the freedom to choose.
Cred, I truly do understand where you are coming from. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I will admit that people basing their beliefs on the bible (a man written book) is not proof that God exists. Quoting the bible isn't proof.
What Cred is requesting is that you use the word belief, not fact, and it is indeed a belief. No one has ever been able to prove the existence of God, it is faith and faith alone, but faith isn't fact.
Tsila,
You do have a right to your belief, nes pas? If you do, then why do you deny others their beliefs? Because you are Christian, it is your mission in life to spread the word of God, because the bible tells you so, because your Church tells you so, a man written book, and a man run institution.
Without the Bible, without Church, what do you have? Would you still believe? Why do you feel the need to preach to someone who has admitted that he does not believe in God? Is it to save him, or yourself?
Remember, I am a believer, perhaps more so than some, as I do not base my beliefs on the bible or Church, but on pure belief, feeling in my heart and soul that God is real. I don't need a book or building a man or congregation to tell me so.
Do I have proof? Of course not, you can't prove God, it's not possible, that's why it is a belief.
To both of you,
I'm sorry I stepped in, I really was just trying to prevent another thread from being closed down.
And I also didn't see anyone getting closer to resolving this, so I tried to end it peacefully.
Having said that, the crux is on you, if this is what you choose.
Peace. :)
That describes my position rather well !Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
All I ask is not to post what people BELIEVE to be true as if it is an actual fact.
That this is a religious discussion board is no reason to make wild claims.
As to the right of others to "spread the word of God" : besides that the bible has never been proved to be the word of god, I have no problem at all with Christians trying to spread that "word". Fine with me.
But not ad nauseum to those who clearly have indicated before that they are not interested in that "word". There is nothing in the bible that demands Christians to spread the "word" against people's wishes.
:rolleyes:
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Jesus was a Jew but I too would like to see the proof that he DID preach mainly to Jews.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
That I would think is based on reasonable assumptions and not factual OSE.
Ah good one No ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Jesus preached to anyone who was willing to attend - His loving heart never would cast someone out from his loving teachings because of a label placed on them.
And living and being in the land of the Jews, why would the majority of people he preached to not have been Jewish? The Japanese with their red flag on a stick (to be easily recognized) were not very well known in the Middle East at that time...Quote:
Originally Posted by Allheart
So yes : it is a safe and logical suggestion that the majority of people he preached to were Jews.
I never thought I would support tsila1777... but fair is fair !
:)
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Exactly why I said it is a logical assumption but where is the OSE?Quote:
Originally Posted by Credendovidis
The Bible teaches and Jesus taught to go to the highways and the biways to preach to the JEW AND the gentiles.
One needs OSE for essential and fundamental claims. For claims like "God exists" or "Gods exist" or "God is the Creator".Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I do not see any need for OSE in case of logical assumptions, which actually hardly matter.
That Jesus (supposing that he existed) taught to Jews and gentiles is - as far as I am concerned - a logical conclusion, without any need for extended evidence. That would be real nitpicking...
:rolleyes:
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That Jesus (supposing that he existed) taught to Jews and gentiles is - as far as I am concerned - a logical conclusion, without any need for extended evidence. That IS exactly what I am saying--- he did preach to Jews and gentiles alike, --no proof that it was mainly Jews which was the question.
My post # 143 explains that "mainly" rather logically! Living and being in the land of the Jews, why would the majority of people he preached to not have been Jewish? So yes : it is a safe and logical suggestion that the majority of people he preached to were Jews, and not gentiles and for which I see no need for OSE.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
:rolleyes:
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Agreed it is logical conclusion
We do agree!! At last!! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
For you !
:)
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Tsila,
You do have a right to your belief, nes pas? If you do, then why do you deny others their beliefs? Because you are Christian, it is your mission in life to spread the word of God, because the bible tells you so, because your Church tells you so, a man written book, and a man run institution.
Not my church, or a man written book or a man run institution...
Without the Bible, without Church, what do you have? Would you still believe? YES! Why do you feel the need to preach to someone who has admitted that he does not believe in God? Is it to save him, or yourself?
Remember, I am a believer, perhaps more so than some, as I do not base my beliefs on the bible or Church, but on pure belief, feeling in my heart and soul that God is real. I don't need a book or building a man or congregation to tell me so.
Do I have proof? Of course not, you can't prove God, it's not possible, that's why it is a belief.
To both of you,
I'm sorry I stepped in, I really was just trying to prevent another thread from being closed down.:)
No need to be sorry... and I wasn't preaching to Cred, he can go to Hell if he wants to, that's his right. why do you think I deny others their beliefs? Why do you think I was preaching to Cred? I know there is no hope for him.
But he said he believes in OSE, I was trying to get him to use his ose to prove what he had written to me... which is what he based his beliefs on, science, psychology etc... but he never would answer my post. He has no answers.
Of course we cannot prove God, it is based on faith. He knows we can't prove it. We've told him so, but we have the right to say what we believe as fact because we believe it is a fact, otherwise we would not believe it.
He could not prove his beliefs so he attacked me personally. Trying to throw me off, I don't care anymore. I know I'm right and so does he, or he would have answered me. I have nothing more to say to Cred.
Blessed are the peacemakers.
T
That is not correct. I do not believe in OSE. So I ask you hereby to post where I ever stated that. I would never do that. What is there to believe in OSE? What is there to believe in EVIDENCE?Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
Again that is not correct. That is what you suggest. But I never posted that. How can you base beliefs on science, on OSE (see above). And why would you base anything on psychology, on another unsupported belief or assumption? I don't ! So your suggestion is false.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
Once more : that is not correct. I have plenty of answers. But you refused long ago to listen to my valid arguments. So in response I no longer reacted to your requests to post the same over, and over, and over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
Once again : that is not correct. You indeed have all the right to believe whatever suits you. And you have the right to do as if what you believe is a fact. But I have the right to question whatever you believe and what you suggest to be right. That you believe something is not the same as that it is right. It may be or - much more likely - is not that way. The burden of proof for that is upon you, the claimant.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
One more incorrect. I have no religious beliefs. If I attacked you, it was not because I could not produce proof of what you claim me to believe, but because you acted as a brick wall, unwilling to debate or communicate, and reacted repeatedly unfriendly, in clear anger, and with more religious claims. That stated I have no problems offering my apologies for attacking you. But please note that there is a big difference between attacking someone, and pointing out incorrect statements, like I do in this post.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
And another incorrect. I am sure you are wrong on that. You have clearly no idea how I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
That is actually an admission of defeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
In most cases that is correct. But I do not count you as one of them (neither do I claim that description for myself). I see more in logic and trust in my own capacities. Unlike you I also know that making unsupported claims does not support one's arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
:)
·
Altenweq,
I'm sorry I stepped in, I really was just trying to prevent another thread from being closed down.https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/../ima...lies/smile.gif
No need to be sorry... and I wasn't preaching to Cred, he can go to Hell if he wants to, that's his right. why do you think I deny others their beliefs? Why do you think I was preaching to Cred? I know there is no hope for him.
But he said he believes in OSE, I was trying to get him to use his ose to prove what he had written to me... which is what he based his beliefs on, science, psychology etc... but he never would answer my post. He has no answers.
Of course we cannot prove God, it is based on faith. He knows we can't prove it. We've told him so, but we have the right to say what we believe as fact because we believe it is a fact, otherwise we would not believe it.
He could not prove his beliefs so he attacked me personally. Trying to throw me off, I don't care anymore. I know I'm right and so does he, or he would have answered me. I have nothing more to say to Cred and his OSTD.
Blessed are the peacemakers, and you are a peacemaker. Blessings.
T
Unfortunately true...Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHelp
Tsila what you are trying to do is hopeless because all that and MUCH MUCH more has been explained to Cred0 time and time again for years but he always just keeps proclaiming the same things and walks away declaring himself in so many words *the winner*
In an indirect way yes. This is a religion board and it means that all the statements are 'beliefs', coming from faith. But he always says "That is YOUR belief", " You have no proof of" so and so on. He should once and for all understand that!
Exactly I have said so many times in so many ways ---Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown008
Notice at the top off the page it says Religious Discussions
Of course that is what we believe this IS a religious discussion board where Christians say WHAT they believe. It is not the FACT board, it is not the ''prove it'' board, it is not the science board, it is not the atheist board it IS the religious board
Religion isn't a topic for "argument" - to prove wrong or right, but to openly discuss.
So yes anything we say is our claim.
RELIGION = Believe IN, believe, belief
Get it yet??
and he continues to insist that we always start with "I believe... ''
Please note that explaining something zillions of time does not make it reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
And nowhere did I proclaim myself "the winner". All I stated is that the statement "I have nothing more to say to Cred." is actually an admission of defeat. Once more you are trying to twist what I stated into something entirely different.
You know what my posts are about : you may believe from me whatever you want to believe. But that you believe something, does not make that factual - for instance the statement "God exists" is a claim, a claim you have to prove first ! I do not ask people WHY they believe that.
Please note that my reactions clearly pointed out where tsila1777 "adapted" the truth, and that none of my reactions were refuted.
:)
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I didn't say you proclaim you're a winner I said in so many words
Meaning actions speak louder than words.
Also saying over and over zillions of times that we should not have to say "I believe...
Before what we believe on a religious discussion board may not make it so but your saying we need to say it before we state our beliefs doesn't make it so either
What I was trying to do was get Cred to answer me, which he could not do, because he knows I used his own ‘beliefs’ to prove him wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Cred can do or say whatever he pleases except tell me what to say on this board. His nonsense is boring and foolish. I do not care to discuss anything with him anymore because he is void of understanding and twists everything until it does not even resemble what the poster actually said, and then he makes unintelligent replies to his own mangled interpretation; which I will not even bother reading anymore.
As someone said, this is a religious discussion board, not a “prove it” board.
God’s Word is all the proof I need, if anyone needs more proof, than they should go look for it. God’s Word is final authority in my life. The Word of God says and as for as I am concerned that makes it a fact.
Psalm 14:1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Christ died for the ungodly. He came to seek and save those that are lost. His Blood has never lost its power, to cleanse those who believe, of all sin. It is by faith through grace; faith in what Jesus did on the cross.
God is love, and we are to love even those who have declared themselves our enemies, but we do not have to associate with them.
Peace and love
Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Should we please God or man?
Excellent post. I would like to ask 'who is he that he thinks he can insist anything' rhetorical question. This board is here to discuss religion, our beliefs. Maybe the only way is for all of us who come here for serious discussion, is to ignore him.:rolleyes::D:(:eek::)
Peace and ease
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