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Originally Posted by tsila1777

Do you not recognize a jape when you see one? To say I do not believe in science was a droll statement to amuse those who think they are so intelligent yet live in darkness.

First you say I am well read and intelligent then you call me ignorant. Isn't that like saying someone is pretty ugly? By the way my daughter is a doctor, GP, and my son is president of a bank.

And you totally missed my point about the two headed monster. I don't think you are capable of understand the paronomasia, so there is no point in trying to explain it further to you.

I hope you find what you are looking for, which is obviously some foundation for faith in the One True God; Or else you would be on a site other than religion.

I can't imagine why one who does not believe would visit here unless they needed/wanted a reason to believe.

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Just for fun lets say some one simply wanted to learn how you think, why you behave the way you do, or why you believe what you believe, and not so they could validate nor find fault or flaw in your belief. This is not all about your religion, it's about your behavior, and not just yours but every ones! I just want to learn why the religion you believe in makes you behave as you do?? Kind of like a case study, only by personal interaction as aposed to scientific data. Or if it has any effect upon you at all.

Surely curiosity of such things are important, see I have my own belief, and I want to compar notes, not to see who is better, worse, right or wrong, but to see what there is out there. No harm in learning, no need to believe in what we learn, no reason to ignore it eihter.

Peace be with you.

Religion by deffinition--spelled definition by the way: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, (esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies),...
Take note here--->( yes sir!)...usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a "moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

This is about all of your comment that I understood, as I nearly fell asleep reading it, or a part of it. Sorry, I just could not get through it all. However, you did proved my point with this statement, that I did not contradict myself. Christianity is not about rules and customs it is about a RELATIONSHIP with The One True God. I don't care what your dictionary says, and I don't want to sound mean here, but you should use it more often...or at least spell check...no that was mean. I am sorry. I do not want to be mean, but if I am, I know my relationship with God has not been disturbed. He knew all about me, past, present and future, but He loved me and He saved me anyway. Yea, I am hard to handle, but my salvation is not based on my behavior, but on the Precious Blood of Jesus, that was shed for me. I am accepted in the Beloved. Even as I am, He loves me. God is my Father, and He doesn't turn His back on me or stop loving me when I'm bad, THANK GOD!...He will correct me gently like a real father does, but He never stops loving me, and He never gets mad at me. His wrath was poured out on Jesus. Except for that which is being stored up for the unbelievers...(He said it first, I'm just quoting my Father here) He is not mad at His children/believers anymore. Religion is based on rules, relationship is based on love.

And that's the difference between religion and relationship.

As to the rest of your blog...I am sorry. I tried to read it. Really, I did.

The dictionary was made from man, not from God. Therefore, I don't believe all what's said in the dictionary. And God never considered Christianity as a religion.

Yeah Like I said
Religion is man reaching out to God; Christianity is allowing God to reach you

***Religious people go to church on Sunday and live like hell the rest of the week
Real Christians live their faith seven days a week

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Originally Posted by [B

tsila1777[/B]] I don't care what your dictionary says, and I don't want to sound mean here, but you should use it more often...or at least spell check...no that was mean. I am sorry. I do not want to be mean, but if I am,

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If you really were sorry you would have edited out that bit you were sorry about - but you didn't.

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Originally Posted by Nestorian

Just for fun lets say some one simply wanted to learn how you think, why you behave the way you do, or why you believe what you believe, and not so they could validate nor find fault or flaw in your belief. This is not all about your religion, it's about your behavior, and not just yours but every ones!! I just want to learn why the religion you believe in makes you behave as you do??? Kind of like a case study, only by personal interaction as aposed to scientific data. Or if it has any effect upon you at all.

Surely curiosity of such things are important, see i have my own belief, and i want to compar notes, not to see who is better, worse, right or wrong, but to see what there is out there. No harm in learning, no need to believe in what we learn, no reason to ignore it eihter.

Peace be with you.

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Key word here being fun. I'm having fun... if it is irritating someone, I'm sorry. Being a Christian doesn't mean I have to be super perfect all the time or even super nice... You explained yourself well, and I appreciate that. I do have a problem with sarcasm... one of my faults... I'm not perfect, just forgiven.

But since the written word is so impersonal, how then can one get to know the person behind the word? How can you judge my behavior through the written word?

None of you knows anything about me, except what you suppose you have gleaned from my comments. I’m sure I am much worse than you all think. :D

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

If you really were sorry you would have edited out that bit you were sorry about - but you didn't.

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Actually, I left it in to demonstrate my point... I am sorry... it is not nice to make fun of people, and I would hate for someone to do that to me. Forgive me. I'm sure there will be and have been opportunities to do so.

My point was... I don't have to be perfect... I am not always a nice person... I can be mean... a lot meaner than that... but I am forgiven and my Father God loves me no matter what I do... because of what His Son Jesus did in my favor. And I don't have to kill anything or do anything to receive that forgiveness except to receive it. Jesus paid the price for my sins. That doesn't give me a right to be mean... but if I am, then I know it's under the Blood.

I hope I explained that well enough... I'm sure I'll get a chance to explain it again.

Peace and love

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Originally Posted by tsila1777

Religion by deffinition--spelled definition by the way: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, (esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies),...
Take note here--->( yes sir!)...usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a "moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

This is about all of your comment that I understood, as I nearly fell asleep reading it, or a part of it. Sorry, I just could not get through it all. However, you did proved my point with this statement, that I did not contradict myself. Christianity is not about rules and customs it is about a RELATIONSHIP with The One True God. I don't care what your dictionary says, and I don't want to sound mean here, but you should use it more often...or at least spell check...no that was mean. I am sorry. I do not want to be mean, but if I am, I know my relationship with God has not been disturbed. He knew all about me, past, present and future, but He loved me and He saved me anyway. Yea, I am hard to handle, but my salvation is not based on my behavior, but on the Precious Blood of Jesus, that was shed for me. I am accepted in the Beloved. Even as I am, He loves me. God is my Father, and He doesn't turn His back on me or stop loving me when I'm bad, THANK GOD!...He will correct me gently like a real father does, but He never stops loving me, and He never gets mad at me. His wrath was poured out on Jesus. Except for that which is being stored up for the unbelievers...(He said it first, I'm just quoting my Father here) He is not mad at His children/believers anymore. Religion is based on rules, relationship is based on love.

And that's the difference between religion and relationship.

As to the rest of your blog...I am sorry. I tried to read it. Really, I did.

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I thank you for you correcting me, my spelling is atrosious, I"M sure i spelled that worng, lets' see if i remember to spell check eh? haha. I don't think you are mean, for suggesting i improve upon my spelling, i welcome the idea. Like I said, Im hear for the Learning.

Hey no worries, i'm a long windded person, but that is simply because i've noticed a "relationship", that i wonder if any one else notices, between who we are, what we do, how we behave, what we believe, how we affect the enviroment, how it inturne affects us, and pretty much how everything is connected at some point, in some way. See, Yes there maybe a god, Gods, energy, force, source, or other, but i have no idea. I do know that my connection with the world is a connection with that what ever it is. How so, well if our world was created by anything, then I imagine that that thing would have put a part of it's self into it as well, even if it was just a thought, or love. So, really I guess i do believe, but not the same as you. For if god loves his children, As we all do start off as, and he knows past present and future, then i can only assume he knows about how are minds/brains are affected by the world around us, with in us, and apart of us, Thus he perhaps like me knows that people do have a measure of control over thier actions, but there are so many factors and things to consider, that we as humans simply can't fathome the very idea of thier tremendous expanse, for it would take a billion life times to understand it. So, god would have to pardon every one no?? lest he be, now lets not get angree but intolerable, sounds a little you know ignorant, childish, and/or heartless. Since i don't know, maybe i'm wrong, maybe i'm right, but i'm almsot sure that none of that really matters on account they are just words, and nothing is absolute.

Also, I do not think i proved your point, "However, you did proved my point with this statement, that I did not contradict myself. Christianity is not about rules and customs it is about a RELATIONSHIP with The One True God. I don't care what your dictionary says... " This relationship is in fact based upon rules, guide lines, comandments, no??? I mean if he demends, or requires, or expects us to Follow him and nothing else, i really don't see how you can call that anything but a Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. No, i'm not throwing this in your face, nor am i saying you are right or wrong, i'm simply saying these are words that describe what you believe.

One thing i've noticed about people and religion, most will claim they don't believe in it, but they believe in a relationship or worshipfull purpose with a higher power that created exsistance, but that is a religion. Religion is just a word, and it doesn't mean good or bad as some seem to believe. Religion does not start wars, nor does it influence people to. We are individuals, and as such have the ability to choose for our selves, and in some cases, more and more often every day, there are individuals who are incapable of this "ability" to choose, due to mental illness, physical illness (usually of the brain.), lack of human emotional kindness, and emotional belonging, "FEAR", and lack of safety, and or nessissary physical requirements being met: food, water.

But I've noticed that people do seem to think they need more then they do and in takeing more then we need we are depriving our fellow Humanbeings, of basic needs. We, seem to leave no where for people to simply be, so we all hudle in our so called civalized society. Brain washed I think, we have become blind to our relationship to exsistance, and traded it for a relationship with our desires, and wants. But I don't blame people, though I'd like to, it's not fair to do that. Most of us just want to be happy and some of us are, some aren't and others are not sure. Different strokes for different folks.

Any who I hope that is a little better for you.

Peace be with you.

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

The dictionary was made from man, not from God. Therefore, i don't believe all what's said in the dictionary. And God never considered Christianity as a religion.

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Was not the bible, the ten comandments, written by men?? Passed down by god, but I mean really. We were not there, therefor we don't know, not to mention that the translations have been some what distorted. I'm not saying believe the words are what the dictionary says, in fact, I think that each person has their own different understanding of language, and that one word could mean a different thing for another person.

Peace be with you.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

If you really were sorry you would have edited out that bit you were sorry about - but you didn't.

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No no, I bleive she felt it could hurt my feelings, but she felt also, more strongely, that I needed to know.

Peace be with you.

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Originally Posted by tsila1777

Key word here being fun. I'm having fun...if it is irritating someone, I'm sorry. Being a Christian doesn't mean I have to be super perfect all the time or even super nice....You explained yourself well, and I appreciate that. I do have a problem with sarcasm...one of my faults...I'm not perfect, just forgiven.

But since the written word is so impersonal, how then can one get to know the person behind the word? How can you judge my behavior through the written word?

None of you knows anything about me, except what you suppose you have gleaned from my comments. I’m sure I am much worse than you all think. :D

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Haha, now that's a question I can answer. See, I have to have faith that you are who you say you are. I have to take your word for it. I have no proof that you are who, or behave the way you are now. And considering how much you seem to know about your religion/ relationship with god, which ever you prefer, you seem like the kind of person to be up front. Then again, you won't know a book just by it's cover. So, yes, I'm going on faith in you right now. How does that make you feel.

As for the written word, and it's impersonl quality, that's the quality of the word, not the person. You keep talking to me, and replying to my comments, and by that act, and others, I can learn about you. I, should I decide to dig deeper, can also as to talk to you on the side, and continue the talks with you, till I can put toegther enough information to start understanding what you really mean when you use your words. This could take a long time. Then again you could simply ignore me.

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Originally Posted by tsila1777

Actually, I left it in to demonstrate my point...I am sorry...it is not nice to make fun of people, and I would hate for someone to do that to me. Forgive me. I'm sure there will be and have been opportunities to do so.

My point was...I don't have to be perfect...I am not always a nice person...I can be mean...a lot meaner than that...but I am forgiven and my Father God loves me no matter what I do...because of what His Son Jesus did in my favor. And I don't have to kill anything or do anything to receive that forgiveness except to receive it. Jesus paid the price for my sins. That doesn't give me a right to be mean...but if I am, then I know it's under the Blood.

I hope I explained that well enough....I'm sure I'll get a chance to explain it again.

peace and love

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And as I read on, I learn more, through your act of admition, the words are there, yes, but they don't tell me that you are a respectable and even understanding person, but the fact that you would say them, expressing yourself does. It's hard to handle some times, but people express things in different ways, some yell to tell you they are angry, some cry, because they are frustrated, that they feel angry, some laugh and say you know what, that's fine, I mean it's a real drag, but that's how it is. Expressing ones emotions is not so much in the words as it is in our actions. Words are just words, and really can't explain who or what we are, only give us clues. Hum, that may need some clearification.

So I thank you for your honesty, and consideration for my feelings. If I seem like I am not being considerate please do express that.

P.S. Spell check isn't working for me. So it goes.

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I feel like... there's something else out there. Some sort of force or energy that everything comes from... I have no way of validating that belief either, and maybe that's just my own hope for something more, more than even a 'belief' in something... But let's just take for granted that there's SOMETHING or SOMEONE out there... How, then, do we figure out what that something else is, what it/he/she is like?

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You do have faith. You just haven't been able to define what your faith is in.

I believe and have faith in the Creator of all, the God of Heaven and Earth, the LORD Jesus Christ. I am able to figure out who my faith is in by reading about Him. Faith is believing in someone/ something that you can't explain or touch. Faith is about trusting what you know without tangble proof.
Hebrews 11
By Faith We Understand
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Jesus said that many do not believe because they do not see, but He blesses those who believe when they cannot see.

Dear Nestorian,
May I be a bit long winded here myself…and may I ask a favor of you? I would like to address 'everyone' in this one comment. I hope that is Ok with you.

To Magog—faith is making a choice to believe. But the faith must be based on truth. I surmise that you are looking for truth. His Name is Jesus. He said, “I am the truth and the life.” There is no other way to God, but by Him.

To Needkarma---bite me, oh I'm sorry, that was mean. Please forgive me, my Father God already has.

To Nohelp4u—you are so right. God is continually reaching out to those who do not believe. It is not His will that any should perish, but that all should have everlasting life.

To Unk—I hope you don't mind my pet name for you. God bless and keep you, and cause His goodness to come upon you and overtake you. If you are going through something right now, I believe there will soon be a pleasant end. Peace and love in Him.

To Allheart--this is the perfect name for you. You have a quiet and gentle spirit, pleasing to god.

To whom it may concern— Lobrasster and Cridiculous
God has done all He is ever going to do, He gave His only begotten Son to save your sorry butts, and when Jesus said on the cross 'it is finished' He meant it, and after He has secured our righteousness, He sat down at the right hand of the Father. Jesus being the first born of many brethren…that makes Him my elder Brother, I am a joint heir with Him. He gave us power and authority to continue His work here on earth. God can do nothing except someone prays. And Jesus told us to pray, “Our Father which art in Heaven…” He also said 'in the latter days there would come scoffers... He was right.

To my dear friend Nestoriaan---How does that make me feel? It makes me feel good—all warm and fuzzy inside. :)

I perceive that you are a gentle person, with strong character, and a teachable spirit; one willing to take correction in the spirit it is intended, even when in jest, and I am pleased to have 'met' you.

Question, did you have an earthly father who loved and cared for you? A mother with gentle hands that no matter what you did, like not doing your homework,;) you knew without a doubt they still loved you. Are you in a secure relationship now? Do you have children? Do you still love them even when they break your heart? Would you ever cast one away or deny him anything he wanted if it was in your power to give it?

God is a Father; God is love. God has taken care of sin forever through His Son Jesus. 'Blessed is the man to whom God does not impute sin' I am blessed. God does not impute sin unto me anymore.

My mother, who is now with Jesus, is a gentle woman who loves her children no matter what we did. But my daddy was while on earth, a harsh, violent man spreading fear and dread wherever he went. He was driving the car when the big rig hit my mother's door. She live a month then died from her injuries. I was 23, and had only been saved a few days at this time. My daddy only received a cut on his head. He lived to be 104.

I did not mean to write all that, but I will let it stay. My point which I am getting to is a relationship, with our earthly father or mother is comparable to our relationship with God and the Holy Spirit Whom Jesus sent to be with us and live in our spirit. But God is a good Father.

God the Father gave Adam authority on earth in the garden, when Adam sinned he turned that authority over to satan. Jesus had to come in the likeness of man to redeem us from satan's authority. Jesus was victorious and made a show of him, satan, openly as was the custom of the day. Before Jesus was taken up into Heaven, He said all power and authority is Mine, now go ye in my Name. He gave us power of attorney to use His Name to continue His work on earth. To go about doing good and healing all... He said God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven... there are no missing limbs in heaven.

Jesus was God's very own Son, now are we the sons and daughters of God. We are adopted into His family and are joint heirs with Jesus. We are not stepchildren; we are children of the Most High God.

And like a good earthly father, God loves us and cares for us. His wrath was poured out on Jesus; did you see the movie the Passion of Christ? Therefore, God is not angry with us anymore. Through Jesus, we have access to the Father; we can go into the very throne room of God and talk to Him as unto an earthly father.

Relationship with God is not a set of rules, or commandments. He said 'if ye love me you will keep my commandments'. Of course, we love Him; He saved us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of His Dear Son.

It is not by obligation or dread, fear of punishment or of losing our salvation, that we obey Him and want to please Him. It is for Love's sake. As a man would want to please his wife or a parent would work two jobs and deny themselves for their children.

Religion is rules, laws, and punishment…but we have not been given a spirit of fear, but of love and of power and of a sound mind.

You wrote: How so, well if our world was created by anything, then I imagine that that thing would have put a part of it's self into it as well, even if it was just a thought, or love.

Yes, when God created the world He did put a part of Himself in it. When God created man, He also put a part of Himself in us. And it was love, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit as well as the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, faith, patience, goodness, kindness, self-control, gentleness.

He also gave us the gifts of the Holy Spirit, Word of Wisdom, Word of knowledge, and the others. He gave us everything we would ever need to be conformed to the image of His Son. And He is still giving. The new Covenant is more than a divider in the Bible; it is a blood covenant between God and man. One, a spiritual person, has to read it with a clear and reasonable mind to understand all the things that belong to us and are ours to claim by faith. Things that already belong to us, like healing and prosperity, and the reasons some do not have these is because they do not have faith to believe for them or are ignorant of them.


God gave me my personality, I have always been a feisty, hot tempered, even violent person…the thing I hated most in my daddy, I inherited from him. But thank God, I do not have to yield to those things, I can make up my will not to behave unseemly. Or I can chose to be a bit feisty still.

Your wrote: I don't care what your dictionary says..." This relationship is in fact based upon rules, guide lines, comandments, no???

NO!! It is based on unconditional love from God to me, and my willingness and joy to please Him as I would my earthly father or mother or child or husband. Love is not that complicated. Love and relationship….Does your wife demand certain rules and guide lines and commandments? If you break them is your relationship over? Remember we are speaking of unconditional love here.

I have broken relationships with people who broke some major rules, like isolating and starving me, but when the love is true, the relationship is true and stable.

God knew me, and He still loved me, but it took me a long time to get the impression that God my Father was not like my earthly father. But I finally, through spending time with Him, came to realize God my Father is gentle and kind, long-suffering and good to all who upon His Name in truth.

I know this is incredibly long, but now I have said all I care to say on the subject of religion and relationship. I pray that Magog reads this and understands the love God has for him and why one can believe without seeing, without 'proof' and have strong convictions.

Never mind the spelling thing, which was just a peek into my spunky personality, and only to make a point. By the way, commandment is spelled with two ms.:)

wado unli

Very well put TSILA, may love and kindness continue to guid you.

"Question, did you have an earthly father who loved and cared for you?" In a way yes, he is an alcoholic, but never really hurt me, just never saw him much either.

"A mother with gentle hands that no matter what you did, like not doing your homework, you knew without a doubt they still loved you. ?" Yes and no, my mother loves her children but she is rather angry, sad, and lonely. I can not help her, for she must choose to help herself. Depression runs in the family. But she does love us no matter what, though she does say she'd rather not know me if I ever decided to forsake the idea that we all have to have a "house" in order to be happy. I disagree with her on that, I think we could have a little less, and share our homes a lot more with others, See I don't believe any one truly owns anything. One day sooner or later, we all die, and then it's as if we never had anything, no matter what some one says, or what is written on a piece of paper, because in the end it's not important what you have, only that you've lived.

"Are you in a secure relationship now?" Secure, um, not really. no. It seems that my whole family is divided, and it's very hard to be with one member one holiday and not the other. So easily hurt they are. I hardly see them any more, my family. And the last girl I was romantically involved with well, I'll explain that a little latter in this. Though, I do know I have a relationship with them all still, it's never really that solid.

"Do you have children?" That is a good question, I honestly can't answer that. At the moment, no I don't. But if the child in my friends belly is mine then yes I do. If it's her boyfriends, then nope I don't. (yet if he abandoned them, I'd not leave them to the cold of the streets. NO MATTER WHO'S CHILD. A child is a child, and can not be to blam.) Yes, I'd say I was not very careful in the last year and done paper that may change my life drastically, mind you I'm not afraid of it. I don't feel ashamed, though I feel bad for the other guy, but I also believe he had his hand in the matter just as much as I. So not too bad.

"Do you still love them even when they break your heart?" I love everything, even if I'm mad, I don't really get angry and yell or vent, but I feel it just the same as anyone. I just learned that feelings can be controlled, very hard to do, but nonetheless it is possible to control your actions, no matter how you feel. Though, I can't say any one could ever stop them, or fully stop their feelings influence upon them. Mind you, I believe every one is a child, no matter what you do, no matter what you know, how wise you are, I still believe you are a child. Adult, is something that I can't say I've ever truly honestly met. Why? Mostly because we can never learn enough, and we are always growing, always.

"Would you ever cast one away or deny him anything he wanted if it was in your power to give it?" I try not to turn any one away, but there are times when I feel I am not capable of helping, even with self control, I still get lost too.

I also believe, that despite the fact that we are all individual beings, we are all one of the same. It's complicated.

Any way, I'm very pleased to have met you as well my friend. Once a gain, I thank you for your spelling check for me. Commandments, right?

Peace be with you.

Osiyo Nesterion,

You are welcome for the spell check, but I see yours is now
Working or else your spelling has improved greatly.

Did you understand my distinction between religion and relationship as it relates to Chritian faith and beliefs?

Peace and love to you also,
May you have a good and peaceful conclusion to the situation you are facing. God is a God of reconciliation as well... as I say all things you need.. I pray your family to be reconciled and there be no devision among you. I pray only the best God has for you, and thank Him now that He is watching over you.

Wado

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Originally Posted by tsila1777

To Unk—I hope you don't mind my pet name for you. God bless and keep you, and cause His goodness to come upon you and overtake you. If you are going through something right now, I believe there will soon be a pleasant end. Peace and love in Him.

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Thanks. GBU loads too! And I don't mind really. Some are trying to find a nickname for me right now... :D. Peace & love to you also. May you your work as a Christian continue and fructify!

Oh man. See, this is why I often give up on understanding this stuff. It just seems like all that ever happens is that questions lead to more questions and the 'answers' lead to more questions- and sometimes I get tired of running around in circles.

I do have a few things to say that I was able to pull from that... but man, I just feel like if something were really TRUE it wouldn't be so darn confusing. If there was this personal type of god who wanted us to know him/her, then wouldn't he/she make himself/herself more accessible?

Tsila1777- I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post- however, I can't just take your word for it that Jesus is it and that I need to read the Bible- because your BELIEF is that the Bible is from god. Me... I don't know that to be true. I don't know it to be false, but I have an issue with treating a presumption as a fact and then 'learning' from it... do you see what I mean? There are so many religions in the world, so many religious texts for different religions, and everyone believes that their religious text is the REAL one from the REAL god... well, they can't all be right when their texts say different things, can they? So who's to say who I'm to believe and who I'm not to believe? If what you say is true, that I will never find proof and it's just about faith in what I can't see, then I guess I'll never believe.
Also, if that's how it works, what do you think your god thinks of people who are of other religions that believe without doubting or questioning, or wanting proof like Thomas did? Is it their fault that the religion they were most familiar with or brought up in is the one that they had such faith in? If Jesus is the only way to god, and we should believe w/o proof and that faith we have should not require evidence... then isn't it easy to be mistaken? If someone has unquestioning faith in their beliefs, but they are not Christian, are they blessed for their strong faith or damned for their failure to accept Jesus as god?
Do you see how confusing this is? I just don't understand it- it doesn't logically make sense to me.

Nestorian- I appreciate your posts and your answer... I do have to admit that I struggled to make it through a lot of your posts because they seemed to circle a lot. But I think that's just the nature of the question I asked... it leads to more and more questions. So please don't take it personally that I say that- part of what drives me crazy about religion is how cyclical the question/answer process becomes... and it's funny, because the people who tell me 'just believe in xyz religion and you'll be fine' are direct and clear, but I can't agree with them because it's just too cut and dry (and for the reasons I mentioned above and in other posts)- and then answers like yours which break things down and attempt to clarify things make my head hurt, even though that's probably the direction my thoughts should be going in at this point. Lol.
But one thing that stood out in your posts that I do think I agree with is that if there is some sort of god or power behind all of this which created all of what we see (through thousands of years of evolution, but created it none the less) then I do think that part of that god or power or spirit or whatever is in it's creation- because I don't think it's possible for something to be created without reflecting something about or some part of it's creator.
So for god to create people, then maybe that indicates that there's a personal side to god. And if god created animals and nature, then there's a natural and animalistic side to god as well. I'm still working on this thought, not sure if I totally agree with it or not... but your post made me return to this thought that I had a while back, and I appreciate that.

One last thing- please, no fighting or bickering or bitterness or attacking of one another. I want to have an open and honest discussion, and it's really impossible to do so when all of that is going on-

Thanks for all of your responses- even though I'm still not much more clear on all of this yet, the discussion is helpful in at least keeping me thinking about it all and opening up to new ideas and possibilities.

margog85 : you asked "What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?".

Of course such a question receives replies from wide differing world views.
Some people just need a "father" figure to keep them going - an imitation memory from early life, where father was the one who saved you, who took care of you, who was there for you - so they accept an imaginary deity that performs that function (a "god").

Other people at some time in their life start understanding that deities are like tooth fairies and gnomes : they simply do not exist. So they re-arrange their life to continue without the "alternative" father figure, i.e. the "god" figure.

And there are people who are at some in-between position : they realize that the Christian (or other religious) story can't be correct, but they hold back in implementing the logical conclusion that you have to go - and can go - on without deities.

Faith in a deity or deities is about fear : fear for the unknown, fear for death, fear to be alone, fear for death, etc. Faith is about the need to "lean" on something to silence these fears.

People believe, because during their childhood they were brainwashed in the most friendly way possible - but never-the-less brainwashed - into believing into the existence of an almighty father figure who would take care of you.

If that suits people : fine with me! I have no problem with that.
Where I do have a problem with is that some of them insist that what they believe should also be believed by the rest of humanity, and they refuse to accept a no answer. I have a problem with such people, because of their intolerance for the freedom of choice by others (while they themselves always insist on that same freedom of choice for themselves).

:rolleyes:

·

Ah, margog85, I have a verse for you. It's from a song: "We live by faith and not by sight". The fact that we believe in Him without being able to give proof of His existence to the world makes us apart from the world and be saved by Him. No matter what the others tell you, if you listen to Him, he will save you. We can be in the world, but we're not from it. They perhaps need proof, but you shouldn't. I know its difficult, because the world influences you everyday. But if you can see people who are suffering... They are desperate and the only thing they can do is to believe in something. Some choose the right path, that of God, but some choose the wrong path. Such a case occurs in Burma. If you could see those people. Their government is ruled by dictatorship and recently, they had a terrible cyclone... Some tried to make their situation better but the government killed them.

You have the chance of being in a more comfortable country, take that chance and do the right choice, choose life!

Ok, I get that, that people have faith in what they cannot see... but if you can't see it, prove it, or support it with anything other than texts from within the religion or testimonies from those who are part of that religious movement... then how sure can you be that YOUR religion is CORRECT? Because other religions go off the same basis-
That you can't have proof, you have to have faith, and they have the support of THEIR texts and THEIR believers.
Do you see what I mean?
Each religion can have the same TYPES of 'proof' and ideas about faith and believing what you cannot see... but if no one can see anything they believe in, and it's just blind trust or faith or 'grace' or whatever you want to call it, how can you be so CONFIDENT that what you believe is right?
Or do religious people just believe that what they believe is right FOR THEM because it works FOR THEM and that others don't necessarily have to believe in the same way as they do as long as what they are doing WORKS.
That kind of view I'd have a much easier time understanding.
But how can those who believe in something they cannot see or provide evidence for be so sure that their beliefs are so true and set in stone and definite that they then go on to try to convince others that their way is the only way, or the best way, or the 'truth'?
That's what I'm trying to understand, partially.
If anyone can break down their process of how they chose their particular religion and why it is the one they believe so whole-heartedly, I'd be very interested to hear about it. Because it just seems impossible to me.

Hi beautiful Margog :)

I was born Catholic from the time the doctor's smacked my butt ( hey, isn't that a sin? :)
From the time I could hear, see and breath, I knew Catholisism. I had cousins who were priest and nuns and Aunts who were nuns, and a sister who wanted to be a nun, but it never did happen.

It is who I am and what I believe. I love the teachings, as far as love one another, turn the other cheek and do good unto others. I love the soft music and peaceful readings and the homilys to follow.

Now, if I were raised Jewish or Baptist, I bet I would hold true to that faith. I don't ever discount any faith were there is a love of God.

I don't think by faith... is the faith... the perfect faith... but it is for me. But I have a love in my heart for all faiths.

Bless you and here's an Allheart hug for you :)

Magog,

You're welcome.

but I have an issue with treating a presumption as a fact and then 'learning' from it... do you see what I mean?

No, I don't. I was talking about a relationship with God. I have a relationship with God, I feel His Presence, I hear His voice, I know Him. I know about Him, but I also know Him... I can't prove that to you, I would that I could. But it's by faith, grace, and trust. I know that I know that I know that God is real and He is my Father and loves me and cares for me. Someday He will send for me and I will be in His Presence always and forever.

What I was trying to say is if you get to know this God of mine, through reading His Word, then He would give you proof. He would make Himself known to you. That would be your proof.

It's not just reading the Bible. You asked about faith. You said what is faith? I told you. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

Faith in something you can prove, is NOT faith. Do you really want to understand faith? Is that your real question? Is that what you are really looking for here? Or are you asking which religion is the right one? Everyone thinks theirs is right... or else they wouldn't believe in it. Right? So, there is no way to get an anwer to that question on here.

You said "and that faith we have should not require evidence."

Faith and evidence are opposites. You can't have faith in something you can see, you know for sure. Oh, you can have faith in your lover, but you still have to trust that lover, and then that lover may still betray you.

Faith is trusting that what you believe in is real. OK? Spirirtual faith in a higher Being, is trusting that what you believe is real. If it be Christian, or any other 'religion', that's what faith is.

As for other 'religions' it is not God's will that any should perish. I am not here to judge other religions... if they have a real faith in God and believe with all their hearts, I'm sure God will honor them.

But if you refuse to accept that faith is believing without seeing, faith is trusting in 'a higher Being' without 'making sense' then there is no answer for your question.

And I guess that is the answer... there is no answer.

Sorry, I wish I could have helped you. I pray you do find some answer.

Try looking inside yourself, sometimes we already know the answer, it's just not the one we wanted.

Peace and hope to you. I pray God will reveal Himself to you, and show you the truth and teach you the path you should walk. Blessing and peace from God.

Tsila

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

margog85 : you asked "What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?".

Of course such a question receives replies from wide differing world views.
Some people just need a "father" figure to keep them going - an imitation memory from early life, where father was the one who saved you, who took care of you, who was there for you - so they accept an imaginary deity that performs that function (a "god").

Other people at some time in their life start understanding that deities are like tooth fairies and gnomes : they simply do not exist. So they re-arrange their life to continue without the "alternative" father figure, i.e. the "god" figure.

And there are people who are at some in-between position : they realize that the Christian (or other religious) story can't be correct, but they hold back in implementing the logical conclusion that you have to go - and can go - on without deities.

Faith in a deity or deities is about fear : fear for the unknown, fear for death, fear to be alone, fear for death, etc. Faith is about the need to "lean" on something to silence these fears.

People believe, because during their childhood they were brainwashed in the most friendly way possible - but never-the-less brainwashed - into believing into the existence of an almighty father figure who would take care of you.

If that suits people : fine with me! I have no problem with that.
Where I do have a problem with is that some of them insist that what they believe should also be believed by the rest of humanity, and they refuse to accept a no answer. I have a problem with such people, because of their intolerance for the freedom of choice by others (while they themselves always insist on that same freedom of choice for themselves).

:rolleyes:

·

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Now Credendovidis, relax, take this in the best way possible, I'm not saying you are wrong o right or other wise, I'm just asking you to "CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING." (you know like Bill Nye the science guy!! Haha, I used to love that show.

And moving on, So you say people have "faith" in things simply because of fear? (mindyou there are those who do, indeed do this.) No other reason? Surely you believe in a human soul, or spitit, on account you believe in free will, and the ability to freedom of choice, NO? We have no real "objective" (was it you who told me about this?? ) evidence, only "subjective" evidence of the spirit. Yes, it would apear that our mind and our brain are two seperat things, yet both tend to interact so closely that it's next to impossible to distinguish between the two. Other than one is Physical (the brain.) the other is abstract (the mind). Both, as you have pointed out, have influence on our behaviors. See, "conditioning" or "brain washing", is one way our brain influences the mind, by distiorting our perceptions and the information that is taken in. But not only as children are we brain washed, but even as adults, though we "seem" more aware of things as adults, we are still pulled into what we see others doing, or how something's make us "feel", and many other things. Do you think a specific type of women is attractive? Well, that is not just because of a childhood experience, though it seems to be the biger part, there is still what we experience as adults that can change our perceptions. See the brain is Plastic, and has the ability to change, adapt.

If you disagree, feel "free" to comment further, or ask questions. Just remember I'm not saying you are wrong, just that there may be more to what you say. As the original Poster said, there is question and answer then question again, running in circles, and what not. It seems never ending, and may very well be. Who knows! I'd enjoy hearing form you, as I always do, my passionate friend.

Now on to the idea that you dislike other people insisting upon your freedom to choose, I'd simply like to ask, "are you not doing the same thing by telling them they should not exercis the "Freedom to choose" weather or not they should tell people about their beief and that they feel they are right, and that you or others should follow? I don't know but that seems like a bit of a confusing statement. NO?? Implying others should not use their freedom, because it imposses upon your freedom?? Why not just let tehm say or imply as they will and leave it at that. Personally, I don't think it really matters what you choose to do, only what I choose to do. (on account that I'm the only one who controls my behavior, and that is quit hard enough with out worrying about others behavior.) So unless some one intends on harming me or such, really what's the harm. So you don't agree with me, or even choose to recognise my belief, it's not yours it's mine. No?

Faith in things because of fear that is Cred0's opinion due to his limited comprehension of the faith concept.

He says you are free to say whatever you believe as long as you FIRST state
I BELIEVE...

Does that clear any of your confusion?

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Originally Posted by margog85

Ok, I get that, that people have faith in what they cannot see... but if you can't see it, prove it, or support it with anything other than texts from within the religion or testimonies from those who are part of that religious movement... then how sure can you be that YOUR religion is CORRECT? Because other religions go off of the same basis-
that you can't have proof, you have to have faith, and they have the support of THEIR texts and THEIR believers.
Do you see what I mean?
Each religion can have the same TYPES of 'proof' and ideas about faith and believing what you cannot see... but if no one can see anything they believe in, and it's just blind trust or faith or 'grace' or whatever you want to call it, how can you be so CONFIDENT that what you believe is right?
Or do religious people just believe that what they believe is right FOR THEM because it works FOR THEM and that others don't necessarily have to believe in the same way as they do as long as what they are doing WORKS.
That kind of view I'd have a much easier time understanding.
But how can those who believe in something they cannot see or provide evidence for be so sure that their beliefs are so true and set in stone and definite that they then go on to try to convince others that their way is the only way, or the best way, or the 'truth'?
That's what I'm trying to understand, partially.
If anyone can break down their process of how they chose their particular religion and why it is the one they believe so whole-heartedly, I'd be very interested to hear about it. Because it just seems impossible to me.

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My brother, Faith belongs to those who keep it. YOu can't understand something that is not in you, but is in aonther person. That is theirs to hold true, you have to find your own truth/path/understanding/way/belief/faith so on and so on. "to each it's own." Some believe God is a Being, some believe God is many beings, some believe God is all around us, some believe God is in us, some Believe they are Gods, some believe We are all God, or Gods, some believe tha God is that part of you that you can't see or touch (you just know its' there.) Personally, I believe that None and all are true.

You want to know what faith is? First why not try to define faith. Sure the dictionary says it's a belief with out proof. But a belief is described as an opinion, and an opinion is baised on one's personal perspective. You may try to decide what Faith is to you. All we can try to do is tell you what faith is too us, and you, you can agree, and disagree with what ever you want, (or ignore us) but what may matter is not that you choose one to agree with one of us, but that you have the ability to choose one, what ever the choice is, it is yours to make.
If some one believes that you will not make it into heaven because you don't choose their faith, that is their own belief (thier choice), what is yours? And don't feel bad if you can't decide or be afraid that you will be punished for not making a choice, because as I've said before, If what ever made us is indeed all knowing, it will know that we are creatures that have doubts, and fears, and don't know what is right or wrong. (in all truth, we can only choose what is right for our self. Even then life can show us other wise, that it is wrong.) We don't really know what is meant to happen or if its spose to happen only that it is happeing or has happened. It seems likely that it put it's self into this existence, and therefor probably understands our human conditions and has forgiven us.

Do as you feel you must, but try not to depend on others to give you the answer, find it with in yourself. As yoda tells Luke (on dagoba) when Luke askes, "what's in there?" Yoda, "only what you take with you." Or as the saying goes, "the only wisedom a man finds at the top of a mountain is the wisdom he takes with him." Or something like that, I'm tired, and if you need any more clearity, may I suggest opening a book on religion, read as many as you feel is nessissary, heck why not read about philosophy too.

"Yesturday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift. That is why it is called the present." - Kung Fu panda, the turtle master guy.

If anyone can break down their process of how they chose their particular religion and why it is the one they believe so whole-heartedly, I'd be very interested to hear about it. Because it just seems impossible to me.

What seems impossible to me is that you have gotten so many answers already and still do not understand what faith is.

Do you really want an answer?

Faith is like the air you breath…you cannot see it, but you trust that it will sustain you if you continue to exercise your lungs, and take in the oxygen that enters into your blood stream and is carried to every cell of your body…

Do you believe in gravity? You cannot see it. Someone said gravity holds us on this spinning planet. But you don't even know for sure the earth is spinning. Do You? They say the earth is moving at a certain speed, have you gauged that for yourself or do you believe it is just standing still? Or do you just take their word for it, by faith.

They can explain it and you can chose to believe it or not. I think you are choosing not to believe in faith.

Please reread my long comment again, if you even read it the first time. Read it slowly and carefully….. I already told you exactly what you are still asking for now. I told you what I believe and why I believe it, and the reason I can be so confident is that God has revealed Himself to me in many ways.

I do not believe this way because my parents did, because my parents did not believe exactly the way I do. I believe because I have put God to the test and He did as He said He would. He is true and faithful to His Word.

I believe in the Blood of Jesus that washed away all my sin even before I was born and now I am free from sin because I believed in my heart and confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord. I have peace and strong confidence. Something I can tell you, but there is no way to show you. That's impossible.

To ask for proof of faith is like asking for proof ofunbelief.

Can you prove to me that you still do not understand? I do find it so hard to believe, so go ahead prove it. Prove your unbelief!!

Well, Tsila, I did read your answers. You seem somewhat aggravated with me for not 'getting it', which I don't really understand. Maybe all of this is clear as day to you, but it's not to me.
I understand that YOU have faith, and that OTHERS have faith, and I know what faith IS, but I still can't grasp it myself and really get a good grip on HOW that kind of faith is possible.

If I didn't really want an answer, I wouldn't have asked the question, read the responses, and responded to them. So don't ask silly questions like that, obviously I'm trying to figure it out. When you ask a question like that, it comes off as condescending. Not trying to argue, just pointing it out in case you didn't realize or intend it to sound that way.

And I'm not asking for 'proof' of faith, whatever that means- What I'm interested in the thought process behind coming to faith in something- how to narrow it all down from the vague idea that there's something out there beyond yourself to the specific religious 'truths' that people have. And just saying that 'reading the bible' or 'just trusting' doesn't cut it for me. If that's how it worked for you or for others, that's fine and great for you- but I'm looking for a different kind of answer- something a little more specific.

If you can say that that's a simple process, something that I should have come to a full understanding of within the past week or two since I posted this question, then I have to disagree. People spend their entire lives searching and trying to figure this out- so please don't be hard on me because it's taking me a while to understand.

I'm not asking what faith IS- I know that it's belief in something you can't see but still believe to be true and real- but I don't understand what's behind that faith, how to get to a place where you really can understand what you have faith in, out of all the different options out there, and be confident in it as being 'right'.

If you re-read my question, or maybe read it fully, not just the title, maybe you'd understand better exactly what I'm looking for. I know it's long- but maybe it'd clarify a bit what I was asking for here.

I really don't want to argue, but you're coming off sort of confrontational- and this is not what I was looking for. It wasn't meant to be a cut and dry question, I wasn't just looking for a definition of faith or of what other people believe- I wanted a discussion of how people came to believe what they do... why they do... how they sorted out all the confusion in their heads and came to some sort of peace with whatever beliefs they finally decided were 'right' or 'right' for them...

So forgive me if I'm still discussing it and asking more questions that come to mind- but there's no need to get frustrated with me, though. I'm trying to understand something that is (possibly) much bigger than myself. I think it's normal that it takes some time.

=)

Faith in God is only possible by the Holy Spirit.

Well Margog,

I reread my answer and it did come off much more harsh than I had intended. But you asked for people to give you examples, to tell how they came to their faith and several people have done that. Have you ever heard of a leap of faith?

I guess it is like jumping off a cliff, you just have to decide to believe in something... is there a drawing toward anything in you? Something you feel on the inside, a longing. A gut feeling?

When I tell you about my God, you say 'that's your belief', well that is all I know about. That is all I know to tell you. I could tell you about other religions, but I don't believe that way... why would I tell you about something I do not believe in? So when you say things like 'that's your belief... it's like you are rejecting all I have to say because I am telling you about how I found faith and peace and joy.

I believe there in only one God, that is my belief, because I believe there is only one God. 'round and round, I believe because that's my belief, I believe there is only one God. And that's why I believe it. OK?

Dear one, I am sorry I came off so harsh. But I feel like you want someone to convince you of a particular religion or belief. That is something you will have to look inside yourself and come to on your own decision. No one can tell you what to believe. Or how to find your path.

I would suggest you try praying, but you would dismiss that too as MY belief so if you won't take advise or try something that someone else is so convinced is real and true and right. Then I really don't know what to tell you.

I came to my belief when I saw the joy and peace my sisters, and their husbands had in their faith in God and I wanted what they had. I was unhappy, I had problems, I felt alone in the world. I watched them and how they were so happy and when they had a problem they prayed and the problems seems to work themselves out to their favor quickly and easily. I watched Christians and I listened to them talk and I saw how they conducted themselves and how they lived. I wanted what they had because it was so much better than what I had.

So I decided I was going to believe in God. I made a decision to believe. We have the power to decide, to make up our will that we are going to believe something. Then we can do it.


Then I began to study for myself the Word of God, other books by people like Kenneth Copeland and others. I read a lot, I prayed a lot and I finally met this God they believed in, He reached out to me and at a time when I needed him most, my mother's death. If it had not been for my faith in God at that time, I could not have endured it.

I decided to believe in Christianity because I had seen it work for others and I wanted to be like them. Of course we all have our own personalities, even family... one sister is very strict, the other is more relaxed and I am even more relaxed. But God accepts our differences because that's how he made us. He does not want carbon copies, He just wants our devotion and love and for us to spend time with Him. There are not a lot of rules and commandments. Simply, love God and love others. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Do what is right even when no one is watching.

That is why I believe in My God and Father, because I do have a personal relationship with Him.

That was some 30 years ago and I have not regretted it, or changed my belief. I have grown and matured, though I still like to have fun and be mischievous sometimes. I never stop learning, and growing. There is still so much more to learn and no one will ever learn it all. Every time I read the Word, I learn something new, even if I have read it many times before. It is new every time I read it because the Holy Spirit that abides in me, the One Who wrote the book, knows how to teach it to us as we submit to HIM.

I personally believe that Jesus is the only way to God. It is my job as a Christian to tell others about Him and what He has done; not to cram it down their throats. You can chose to believe in Him or you can reject Him. That is up to you. You have a free will to choose to believe or not.

How do I know this is the right one; because for 30 years, God has never let me down. I have had 30 years of experience, if I was a lawyer, or an electrician that would impress you and cause you to trust me.

I hope you make the right decision. It is yours to make. I have done my job and the rest is up to you.

wado

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Originally Posted by margog85

Well, Tsila, I did read your answers. You seem somewhat aggravated with me for not 'getting it', which I don't really understand. Maybe all of this is clear as day to you, but it's not to me.
I understand that YOU have faith, and that OTHERS have faith, and I know what faith IS, but I still can't grasp it myself and really get a good grip on HOW that kind of faith is possible.

If I didn't really want an answer, I wouldn't have asked the question, read the responses, and responded to them. So don't ask silly questions like that, obviously I'm trying to figure it out. When you ask a question like that, it comes off as condescending. Not trying to argue, just pointing it out in case you didn't realize or intend it to sound that way.

And I'm not asking for 'proof' of faith, whatever that means- What I'm interested in the thought process behind coming to faith in something- how to narrow it all down from the vague idea that there's something out there beyond yourself to the specific religious 'truths' that people have. And just saying that 'reading the bible' or 'just trusting' doesn't cut it for me. If that's how it worked for you or for others, that's fine and great for you- but I'm looking for a different kind of answer- something a little more specific.

If you can say that that's a simple process, something that I should have come to a full understanding of within the past week or two since I posted this question, then I have to disagree. People spend their entire lives searching and trying to figure this out- so please don't be hard on me because it's taking me a while to understand.

I'm not asking what faith IS- I know that it's belief in something you can't see but still believe to be true and real- but I don't understand what's behind that faith, how to get to a place where you really can understand what you have faith in, out of all the different options out there, and be confident in it as being 'right'.

If you re-read my question, or maybe read it fully, not just the title, maybe you'd understand better exactly what I'm looking for. I know it's long- but maybe it'd clarify a bit what I was asking for here.

I really don't want to argue, but you're coming off sort of confrontational- and this is not what I was looking for. It wasn't meant to be a cut and dry question, I wasn't just looking for a definition of faith or of what other people believe- I wanted a discussion of how people came to believe what they do... why they do... how they sorted out all the confusion in their heads and came to some sort of peace with whatever beliefs they finally decided were 'right' or 'right' for them...

So forgive me if I'm still discussing it and asking more questions that come to mind- but there's no need to get frustrated with me, though. I'm trying to understand something that is (possibly) much bigger than myself. I think it's normal that it takes some time.

=)

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So, now that Tsila has answered your question/s I believe you have two/ three people who've told you what you wanted to know, what I want to know is have you bin paying attention to them???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

... faith in things because of fear that is Cred0's opinion due to his limited comprehension of the faith concept.

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If there is anyone of us two with limited comprehension of faith, it is not I...

===

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Originally Posted by Nestorian

... you say people have "faith" in things simply because of fear?

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No, not only fear. But fear plays a major factor in religious faith and belief.

===

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:rolleyes:

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Cred, at this point, I am going to be a prophet. There WILL come a time when you believe. For your sake, I hope it happens soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Cred, at this point, I am going to be a prophet. There WILL come a time when you believe. For your sake, I hope it happens soon.

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Just as you seem to be strictly convinced of your (religious) views, I am strictly convinced of my Secular Humanistic views.
I guess the chance that you ever become an Atheist is higher than the one of I ever becoming a theist.

Unlike you I do not suggest any time line for you. I respect your views. From me you are allowed to believe in mythical based subjective supported wild claims. No problem at all.
Don't forget that Pascal's wager has been found invalid a long time ago...

:rolleyes:

·

Quote:

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Cred, at this point, I am going to be a prophet. There WILL come a time when you believe. For your sake, I hope it happens soon.

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I agree and I hope so too for poor Cred...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

I agree and i hope so too for poor Cred...

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Only I am not "poor" Cred. Neither in financial nor in philosophical terms !
I'm a skeptic Secular Humanist who does not require mythical wild claims to guide his life !

:D

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Only I am not "poor" Cred. Neither in financial nor in philosophical terms !
I'm a skeptic Secular Humanist who does not require mythical wild claims to guide his life !

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Isn't too bad that some folks are so in need of the supernatural to hve meaning in their lives?



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WVHiflyer : indeed : people are - as far as I am concerned - allowed to believe whatever they prefer !

:rolleyes:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Cred, at this point, I am going to be a prophet. There WILL come a time when you believe. For your sake, I hope it happens soon.

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Matthew 13:15
For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes—so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them.’

2 Corinthians 3:14
But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ.

Ephesians 1:18
I pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called—his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance.



LORD, if you are willing...

Good ol' savesinner, always got the good verses! :) I'm sure that God is trying. But all depends on the one concerned...