 |
Your' logic doesn't work either. Nothing is something and something is nothing. If God didn't exsist, then something had to have created us? You can't always believe in the ape theory because, who made them? Who made the tiny organisms? The cells? SOMEONE HAD TO OF!Quote:
Originally Posted by Skell
I choose to have faith because I do not believe that we popped here. Then someone would have created the 'pop' effect as well.
I'm talking to Capuchin and it seems like he's open could you keep him in your prayers
Someone had to have created the big bang!Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Quote:
Originally Posted by bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE
Why?
We know from physics that nothing is ever destroyed--matter becomes energy, and energy becomes matter.
So why couldn't it have just been energy exploding into matter?
And if GOD can always be around, why couldn't energy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ineedhelpfast
Oh I love Cap... and yes of course I will keep him in my prayers. He's a wonderful wonderful guy!
Hi Synn hun,Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
I hope you know I am not ignoring you... and that I love you and miss you... it's just I don't know the answers to your questions. I don't know too much about about this big banging thing :o
Love you
Allheart, I love you too, and you're always in my prayers.
If we pray for each other to multiple deities, it can't hurt, right?
Of course, to me this is just one of those things where I'm trying to get people to look at their logic.
Plus, I hate when people try to convert me.
I'm not ignoring you either--I have faith that YOU have faith. Same goes for so many others.
As long as you accept that I'm happy in my faith, and others in their lack of faith, I'm happy that you have your faith (and honey--you're always tolerant).
I just hate it when people tell me what I believe is "wrong"--when they can't PROVE that what they believe is "right". If they can't prove it to me, I'm just as right in what I believe as they are.
Which, I believe, is what most atheists believe too. They (and I) don't care that YOU (the collective you, Allheart, honey--not directing ALL of this at you!) believe in your God, as long as you let us believe in whatever we do or don't want to.
Bravo to Synnen!
I think you touched on a very pertinent point here.
Something as spiritual and personal as your beliefs in your and everybody else's origin and ultimate resting place cannot be forced upon someone.
Faith has to come from within, whether your argument for it makes sense or not. It has to be a choice, not medicine forced down your throat, because then it is tainted.
This is what makes our country so amazing, we can all say what we want about the most serious of topics and not worry about being burned at the stake.
God(s) bless our forefathers and their amazing Constitution!
You are 100% right in all that you say Synn and I hope you and everyone does know that I would never want to force my views or beliefs on anyone and happy for whatever anyone carries in their heart. To want to force anything on anyone, is just not right.. period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
And there is no letting of anything. We freely believe and love God, why should those, who do not have to apologize or not be able to feel that same freedom.
Do I want people to share my views? NO, not at all. I want them to have their very own views to be and feel loved. I am not sure what my obligation is in reference to sharing God's love to be honest, but share is the oppertive word not force.
God loves all of us and hurts when we hurt each other. He would embrace a non-believer just as he would a beleiver.
But if there are people who don't believe, who am I to judge, condemn or force or say my way is the right way.
We all are brothers and sisters in this world and it is the differenes as well as the similarites that make us grow and learn.
From my heart, I would never want and hope I never have forced my faith on anyone.
May love always surround one and all.
"The ape theory"? Ahaahhahahahhahahhahahha. That is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE
Nope, that's a Liger, and I have it on good authority it's bred for its skills in magic! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by oneguyinohio
(Napoleon Dynamite told me so!)
Don't forget the often overlooked Tigon :(Quote:
Originally Posted by iAMfromHuntersBar
They're rubbish, no magic skills to speak of at all! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
You say teaching intelligent design is teaching religion. I say teaching evolution is teaching religion. I don't want it forced on my grandchildren. There is at least as much evidence to support intelligent design as there is to support evolution as a first cause. How about this? Just give the kids the facts as to what is, and not the why. Your religion has no more place in the classroom than anyone else's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
MY religion isn't in the classroom.
As a matter of fact, most people have never HEARD of my religion, and the majority of those who have heard of it have HUGE misconceptions about it (eye of newt and tongue of bat and all that).
Do I believe that evolution is how everything started? Not necessarily. Do I think that evolution HAPPENS? Yes. Mutations are a form of evolution, and they happen ALL the time. Or would you deny that a virus evolves to adapt to the medications used to fight it? If you're denying THAT--why is there no cure for AIDS? Or the common cold?
I absolutely do NOT believe that tripe about everything ever imagined being created in 7 days. I don't think the Bible is anything other than a history of a people and a possible moral guideline. Christianity is a RELIGION. Evolution is SCIENCE.
The difference between the two is that one is accepted by many different people of many different religions, and the other is generally a Christian thing.
I'm so SICK of Christians trying to shove their religion down everyone else's throat because they're so SURE that they're the only ones that could POSSIBLY be right. Well guess what? Christians once believed the world to be flat, too. Amazing how they bounced back from THAT one.
My religion is just as "right" as yours, only mine is more tolerant and doesn't seek to force everyone to believe the way I do, like yours does.
THAT is why I don't want Christian theories and tenets (like intelligent design) taught in public schools. Christianity in general has a poor track record of being tolerant of any beliefs but their own, and I absolutely do NOT want my children taught intolerance and egoism of that level.
Hey Synnen, I'd give you an agree, but it's not visible for me right now? Anyway, I liked your post!
[QUOTE=Synnen]
I'm so SICK of Christians trying to shove their religion down everyone else's throat because they're so SURE that they're the only ones that could POSSIBLY be right. ]
As in any group, you have those that give a group a very bad name. Not all of those who believe in Christ fit into the negative sterotype.
Bad apples exsist in every bunch.
This is where you are wrong: Evolution does not say ANYTHING about a first cause. Please learn more about the theory you are so opposed to. You're comparing apples and oranges.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
[QUOTE=Allheart]Oh, Allheart--you're right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
I've met several good Christians over the years, They were never pushy, never demanding, and accepted that my religion was as important to me as theirs was to them. They LIVED as Christians, not just said they were Christian and then tried to convert me. Forgiveness and tolerance were very much a part of their day-to-day lives, and frankly, they were some of the happiest people I ever knew.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wewed100606
Read some of the psalms 6,10, 44 for example. The book of Job.
If you read through the entire Bible, suffering is to be expected and is a fact of life.
There is no direct correlalation between "goodness" and lack of suffering and "wicked" and suffering , in this lifetime. Non believers can see this. For believers, there is hope and joy in this life, because of God, no matter the circumstance. 1 Thess 5:16. Our rewards are in Heaven for all eternity.
Personally, I'll give you an example: 21 years ago I was waiting to get accepted to a professional school. I had average qualifications to be accepted according to prior years.
I applied to 13 schools eat of the Mississippi River. Most of my qualified peeres got their acceptance in the Spring. I did not, I got a job after I got by Bachelors. At lunch I would go to a local Catholic church, it was generally empty at that time, and prayed. I never got an answer, and I did question God, "why" "please" etc. It was not till 1 month before school started that I received an acceptance, and later that week , I received 2 more acceptances. - I suffered waiting, it would have been an easier summer knowing what the future held. But God did answer my prayers, and it was that more joyous. And yes, all praise to the Lord.
But you never really answered the question of why Christianity spreads in the most oppressive places?
My answer:
These people already know of suffering - without God, at the hands of their fellow human beings. The Gospel says, come as you are, because we are all sinners. These people, whether the lowest castes in India, or refugees, are already humbled by their circumstances. These are the poor in spirit. They see misionaries that help them - they chose to leave their comfortable first world lives - accept them, tell them that God accepts them and loves them. God gives them hope through His believers.
Now here in the US and Europe - we have it comfortable, we rely on self, we are materialistic, and full of pride in self - it is hard to hear the Gospel message and admit that we are evil in the sight of a perfect and holy God. You see examples of that denial here on this thread. We are the rich man walking away when told to sell all that we have to follow Christ.
While the church is not perfect and committed atrocities in its history, why don't the anti - religious admit to the good that organized religion does?
The Katrina Quandary | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
But does a tornado "build" a house ? - unfortunantly recent events here in the South know otherwise.
The tornado example is not very fitting for evolution. Evolution does not work from building from random parts, but from selective and gradual alterations to an organism.Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
Why does the tornado HAVE to build a house?
The house was built by man, not nature.
Nature actually DOES replace and replenish in places where disaster happened. Look at Mt. St. Helens, for example. The "experts" thought that it would take a very long time for life to return to the area, yet life was there relatively quickly. Now, 25 years later, the scars are actually somewhat hard to see.
Just because Nature doesn't fix the house for man, doesn't mean that the natural forces that happen are all spiraling towards disarray and disorder. Nature abhors a vacuum, and will fill it.
Out of curiosity--in your philosophy, God created tornadoes, right? Well, does HE build houses?
A tornado would build a house if every time it moved a board by 1 micron in the right direction it gave the board a better chance at surviving the tornado and if it didn't give the board a better chance at surviving the tornado the board was removed and you had a nearly endless supply of boards and 4 billion years to do it in. Humans are not the result of evolution, we are here because as we increased our brain power we increased our survival rate so since more smart humans survived, we got more and smarter humans.
Evolution is not a driving force to reach an end point it is a driving force that causes life to fit the environment better than the life before it.
I have a question. If you who say that the (theory!) of evolution does not claim to be a first cause, then what do you think the first cause is? It either has to be chance (evolution) or intellect. What other choices are there?
I asked a question in post #79 that I believe is significant to this discussion, and no one has attempted to answer it.
Why does there HAVE to be a link?
Can't we just take it on faith, like taking the Bible on faith?
I mean, YOU don't have proof that your god created everything, either!
Personally, I DO think it was chance. I've seen some very strange things happen by chance. Ever seen the path of a tornado? Things are strewn everywhere, yet a clutch full of bird's eggs FROM THE SAME PATH will be completely untouched. I've heard of people picked up by a tornado and put down completely unharmed--and completely naked--except for their shoes. Was that god's intervention? Or pure chance? And if god could intervene on behalf of the poor little birdies--why didn't he intervene for the people whose house the nest was on?
Honestly--I really think that every single action has an impact on the world. The wings of a butterfly in Asia could have been what started Hurricane Katrina, for all we know.
The thing is--we don't know everything. How could we? But we learn more in each age of man that helps explain the world around us.
But to me, it sounds more plausible, and more --I don't know. Livable? More sane? More rational? I'm looking for a word here, and it's not coming to me. Anyway, it's more whatever to believe that chance and our own actions influence the world and the creation of NEW worlds than to believe in some all powerful being that stuck us here, punished us for wanting to know more (the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) because "he said so" (like a capricious parent that is angry because his kid is growing up too fast and starting to have a mind of his own), cast us out of perfection to live in a horrid world where the only chance of survival is to beg His forgiveness every day of our lives. So... I sin because my great-great-great-great-etc-grandparents got in trouble as teens? And *I* get punished for it because he still hasn't just said "oh, all right. You're done being punished. Now go out and play!"? We have choice, but we're punished for choosing the wrong one, hmm? That's really no choice at all, you know. It's kind of like--You can be raped, or I'll just shoot you. Gee... wonder what I'll pick? How can you POSSIBLY consider that to be a kind and benevolent god? He doesn't cause disasters to punish people, yet will save SOME of those people, and not others, and His choice is random, not based on how well you serve Him? Sounds insane to me. No WAY would I follow a leader like that!
I personally like the idea put forth in L'Engel's "Wrinkle In Time" books---there are universes within universes--and for all we know, our universe is the cell of a unicorn's stomach lining, and we will die when the unicorn does, just as the universes that exist within our own cells die when we do.
One current theory on how life can to be.
If you can see the video the link is YouTube - 3 -- The Origin of Life made easy
If anyone is intrested I can give you seven good reasons
Why the bible is true.
I can give you seven good valid reasons the bible is true, if anyone is intrested or even wants to know.
Sorry for the repost, it said it didn't go through or something so I did it again.
You just seem to be ignorant of the evidence here. We have many fossils that show gradual changes from ape to human starting at around 3 million years ago. The change that is exibited from these fossils is so gradual that scientists (and creationists) argue about where to draw the line between human and ape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
I see no reason to conclude that there should be millions of them either - fossilization is a rare event.
Evolution does not say anythign about a first cause. It only explains how we got here from the first replicating molecule, and certainly at the beginning of that timeline it has many questions left to answer. As I stated before, evolution is not chance. Not even if you want it to be. Please stop claiming that it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
I'm unsure what you mean by first cause? Do you mean of the Universe? Or of Life? Or something else?
By first cause, I mean what started it all? Regardless of how you explain progression, or for what length of time, there must be a starting point. Either this complex universe (everything included) is carefully engineered, or it is an accident. To me, the idea of an accident exhibiting such ingenuity is preposterous.
So many refuse to read the Bible with an open mind. The first few verses in Genesis give us a wealth of information that could be compared with scientific observations. Are you game?
I agree with you, but let's see your reasons. I may be the only one here who wants to see them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ineedhelpfast
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Are YOU reading it with an open mind? Or with pre-conceived ideas that it's "true"?
I took several Bible study courses, from the religious perspective, the literature perspective and the historical perspective.
I think my mind is pretty open to the possibilities there.
I just don't understand how someone can possibly believe that every minute little piece of this earth was constructed by some all powerful being WITHOUT the possibility of evolution and change. You think god just threw it all out there, and it's all the same as it was when he made it? Or has it "evolved"?
I frankly don't CARE how it all started--but a cosmic sneeze is as good an idea as someone plotting and planning every little detail to make an ecosystem work.
Science has several theories as to what started the big bang. We have no evidence or observations in order to decide which is true yet. God can fit in here if you wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galveston1
Yeah, I like it. I wonder if it was started by God clapping his hands, snapping his fingers, or slapping his forehead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Capuchin
Now man builds a house. I believe man is created by God, so indirectly God builds the house. Everything, including the tornado is from God.
I get the impression from those that have posted, that everything that comes from man's intelligence, like building a house, is from evolution or can be attributed to evolution since mankind is part of evolution. Am I correct?
If this is your belief, then we can disagree, but if this is your belief how did man "evolve" from a single cell organism? How did that single celled organism "evolve " from billions of chemicals?
Gen 1:1-2
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(KJV)
1961 hayah (haw-yaw);
a primitive root [compare 1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):
KJV-- beacon, X altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require, X use.
There is a time gap betrween verse 1 and verse 2 of unknown duration. God did not create the Earth without form and void. Verst 2 tells us it became void. (see definition below) Some catastrophe destroyed everything on this planet for an unknown period. You have as much time to account for various fossils of great antiquity as needed without contridicting what the Bible says.
Gen 1:27-28
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
(KJV)
Here is further proof of a prior creation. The word replenish means to replace something that is lost. The Hebrew word can have many meanings, but the Bible defines itself in this case.
Gen 9:1
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
(KJV)
Here we have words spoken to Noah & sons. The same Hebrew word for replenish is used here, and we know that it means to re-populate the Earth after that flood.
My point is that any seeming conflict between the Bible and true science is explained by a flawed understanding of either the Bible, or science. There have been instances of both things happening.
Thanks Galveston, but book means nothing to us, scientifically speaking. :)
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:59 AM. |