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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

And it still isn't, except to a few hypersensitive people with a big chip on their shoulder.

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Why do you have to insult them by calling them hypersensitive? Can you or any non-Christians on this forum have a simple discussion without resorting to name callling and insults?

No, in my opinion, they are not hypersensitive. They are simply responding to the anti-Christian atmosphere which has pervaded the country in the last 40 years.

And no, the term "Happy Holidays" meaning "Happy Christmas Holidays" is not offensive. But the idea that we must always and everywhere say "Happy Holidays" and we are forbidden to say "Merry Christmas", that is offensive.

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You are confusing the issue of government-sponsored actions that promote and establish Christianity with the issue of freedom of speech for private individuals and organizations.

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No, I'm not. Department stores are rarely government sponsored and certainly, small restaurants and stores are not government sponsored. They have been harassed in the past and are continually being harassed for saying "Merry Christmas". As have private individuals.

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If you want to attach an anti-Christian meaning to the term, I suppose you can do that, but don't blame the ACLU for it. They don't have that much influence.

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Apparently, they do. They were a major force in changing the longstanding law against abortion...

The ACLU was the first national organization to argue for abortion rights ...
American Civil Liberties Union : The ACLU And Women's Rights: Proud History, Continuing Struggle

... and are now a major force in making anti-Christian legislation. They are not alone of course, they have allies in some of the media and other areas.

But, if you can prove that they have nothing to do with it or that they have only a minor role in this plan, provide your evidence.

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Some people opt for a greeting that includes everyone, while others insist that their Holy day should be the only one to be acknowledged, even by (and to) people who don't celebrate it. So who's trying to control whom?

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Now you are simply being argumentative. I explained our side of the argument. In my opinion, a minority of is being led by the ACLU in an anti-Christian agenda which intends to impose the will of the minority on the majority.

At this point, you have already stated that opinion before, if you have nothing new to support it, then move on.

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This right is not under attack, and never has been.

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Another argumentative opinion without proof. I have provided the evidence that it is under attack. Either provide something new or there is no need to continue repeating your opinion.

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And it still does, by widely-shared usage and any reasonable definition. Your insistence that it doesn't is preposterous.

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I disagree for previously mentioned reasons. Again, unless you have anything new, continued repetition of the same statement is simply argumentative.

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No one is being prevented from mentioning Christmas, and no such redefinition of Happy Holidays has occurred.

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For previously mentioned reasons, I believe it has. Again, unless you can substantiate your answers a simple repetitive denial of my assertions does not make you right. Contrary to Hitler's opinion, repeating a lie often enough does not make it believable.

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No one is being censored, and no such redefinition has occurred.

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Again, for previously mentioned and documented reasons, I believe it has. What are you going to do, just keep coming back with unsupported denials. If you've got a new argument, make it. If not, why continue? Do you just want to have the last word?

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Then I trust that you will temper the tone of your future communications to avoid the misunderstandings that have occurred here

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What? Up to now you've been the most polite non-Christian I've spoken to on this forum. But here you're insinuating that I've not been "tempering" my tone on this forum. That's the same game the others have been playing. Accuse, infer and insinuate. Provide the proof that I have not tempered my tone in any of my communications.

What you should do is learn to respond to the message which is written. Not to your wishful thinking. You wish that I were being untempered. But I simply meet fire with fire and I back up my fire with facts.

So, here's some advice, if you want a tempered tone from me, address me in a tempered tone. Otherwise you get what you dishout. Fair enough?

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No one is trying to censor your right,

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Yes, regardless of your continued protests on the matter it is evident that some people are trying to do just that.

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and you are not being persecuted.

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Not yet. But we will remain vigilant to make sure that no one ever gets the power to actually do so in this country as they are already doing in others.

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You have the freedom to greet others and observe the holiday in any way that suits you.

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No need to tell me. Inform your anti-Christian friends. Cause we don't intend to change any further.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by Soldout

It is an obvious fact that Christmas has been the most prominantly celebrated traditionaly in the US. & if you dont know that you are just in denial.

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It's the word "exclusively" in your statement that makes it factually incorrect. Christianity has been the religion of the majority, yes, but other religions and their traditions have been present and flourished here from Colonial times, and tolerance of all religions is firmly embedded in the Constitution.

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Originally Posted by Soldout

Like i said before, democracy means majority rules. Christians are a majority in Christian Holidays are going to be more prominant. If you take offense to that then you can move to a country where the majority are athiest, muslim or what ever religious beliefs you subscribe to.

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Yes, and thankfully, a majority of US citizens and voters still honor the Founders' vision of tolerance for all religions, and understand the wisdom of prohibiting the Government from establishing or favoring one religion over others.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

But here you're insinuating that I've not been "tempering" my tone on this forum. Thats the same game the others have been playing. Accuse, infer and insinuate.

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Ever stop to think that maybe it's not a 'game the others have been playing' and that there might be some truth to the things being said?

And by the way, do not assume that I know nothing about Christianity or Christians.

Raised Catholic. Attended religious ed from grades 1-10. Participated in youth group from grade 9-12. Upon graduation from high school I volunteered as a Youth Leader in the church youth group for 4 years and taught 4th, 5th and 6th grade religious ed. Volunteered for at least 4-5 years in summer Vacation Bible School. Gave talks at teen retreats and lock-ins. Chaperoned and participated in annual summer retreats. Attended and participated in church events sponsored by both Catholic and other Christian denominations. I was surrounded by Catholics and Christians my entire life.

So please, do not tell me that I have limited exposure to Christians and Christianity.

Do not make assumptions about me that suit your need to make me look like I have no ground to stand on when I make a statement about something Christian-related.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Do you just want to have the last word?

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No, I hereby offer it to you.

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Originally Posted by margog85

Ever stop to think that maybe it's not a 'game the others have been playing' and that there might be some truth to the things being said?

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I gave you an opportunity to prove that it was true. But there's a good reason why you couldn't. I never made the offending statements you attributed to me and insinuated about me. Therefore, I can easily identify the game you are playing. It is a form of fallacious argument called "building strawmen":
Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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And by the way, do not assume that I know nothing about Christianity or Christians.

Raised Catholic. Attended religious ed from grades 1-10. Participated in youth group from grade 9-12. Upon graduation from high school I volunteered as a Youth Leader in the church youth group for 4 years and taught 4th, 5th and 6th grade religious ed. Volunteered for at least 4-5 years in summer Vacation Bible School. Gave talks at teen retreats and lock-ins. Chaperoned and participated in annual summer retreats. Attended and participated in church events sponsored by both Catholic and other Christian denominations. I was surrounded by Catholics and Christians my entire life.

So please, do not tell me that I have limited exposure to Christians and Christianity.

Do not make assumptions about me that suit your need to make me look like I have no ground to stand on when I make a statement about something Christian-related.

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I guess exposure to a subject does not equate to koowledge or love of the subject.

Sooo? Why are you accusing me of making assumptions about you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Ok, if you'd like a list of the things you've said which were condescending, nasty, twisting-what-was actually-said to suit your needs, exaggerations, etc. here it is. I'm sure I missed quite a few, but I'm in a rush right now:

MARGOG85: You give examples of oppressive belief systems in other countries but that exists here too, just in different ways.'

DE MARIA: Not happy here are you? Funny how folks that are unhappy in the US won't leave.

(Making assumptions based on what I said to make me seem anti-American, when I was simply stating that there are still groups within the U.S. that are oppressed.)

MARGOG85: (In regard to the Christian belief that gay marriage should not be legalized) And that is your belief, based upon Christian morality, which you feel should be imposed upon others who may not share your belief.

DE MARIA: Again, you accuse me of imposing beliefs on someone? Is it just your style or do you not know how to articulate your sentences to say what you actually mean? Or do you not understand what I'm saying?. Apparently you simply aren't happy with the idea of majority rule. You would be real happy if you could impose your beliefs on everyone. But our constitution protects us from people who want to impose their beliefs upon us.

(condescending and accusatory- acting as thought I want to impose my beliefs upon others when I'm merely advocating that people should have the freedom to make their own decisions and not have their private lives dictated by laws which stem from religious beliefs that are not their own)

DE MARIA: In this country we have the freedom to care. If you object to someone being vocal, then why only when Christians are vocal do you object? Why not when nonChristains are vocal?

(again, making assumptions- I do not object to people being vocal, I simply speak up when I disagree with their perspective to try and bring some logic into view- and what makes you think I am only objecting to things Christian and nothing else? making the assumption that I agree with all things non-Christians may say and am against everything Christians say is a stretch in what you could actually know from this brief discussion)

DE MARIA: Have you ever heard of the term, "democracy"? That means we arrive at decisions based on voting. That means that the minority should not impose their will upon the majority.

(condesending)

DE MARIA: imposing homosexuality upon society would be just that, an "imposition" to something which is against our very nature.

(twisting my words- I never said homosexuality should be imposed upon society, simply that limiting the freedom of others based on the religious beliefs of one group is wrong)

DE MARIA: See the little "?" at the end. That means it's a question.
(condescending)

KP2171: as a Christian, itd be personally nice for others to wish me a Merry Christmas, since thatd mean I was around others who believed as me, but I'm not getting my panties in a wad cause somebody tells me happy holidays. If a gay man wants to celebrate Felis Navidude I couldn't care less.

DE MARIA: But your panties are in a wad because others don't act like you? Are you setting yourself up as the example we should all follow?

(Condescending and sarcastic)

MARGOG85: Anti-christian bigotry or a generalization based on observation and interaction?

DE MARIA: You admit you are bigotted against Christians. Thanks for the admission.

(twisting things I've said)

MARGOG85: And people like ME make you feel victimized

DE MARIA: You said it yourself.

(removed the question mark from my statement to twist it into what you wanted)

DE MARIA: What irritates you is that you want everyone to agree with your anti-Christian agenda. But I won't.

(accusations without basis- my agenda is not anti-Christian it is pro-inclusion; I am not at fault if some hypersensitive Christians feel that including others in turn excludes them)

MARGOG85: That is not an admission to an anti-christian bigotry. It is a statement indicating that my experiences with Christians have provided me with the perspective I now have

DE MARIA: That is bigotry. You are generalizing based upon your limited knowledge.

(condescendingly making the assumption that my statements are based upon limited knowledge)

DE MARIA: you come to the Christianity forum and attack Christianity and Christians in every way

(I've done no such thing- intentionally distorting the truth)

MARGOG85: I hold nothing against the Christian religion itself- and I respect and admire many Christians who are respectful of others and lack the self-righteous edge that you so proudly display.

DE MARIA: In other words, as long as Christians listen to you quietly, you don't mind them being around. But as soon as Christian defend their beliefs, why they're self righteous and rude.

(twisting what I've said to make me out to be the bad guy)

MARGOG85: Inclusion

DE MARIA: Oh, I see. You want Christians to say, "Oh no, you're right and we're right and everyone is right." Nope. There is such a thing as truth. If you believe you have the truth, then by all means, stand up for it. But Christ is the real Truth and that's who I stand up for.

(twisting what I said and making inferences without grounds)

MICHAELB: Back on topic though Christians are free to shop where ever they wish this Holiday season.

DE MARIA: Thanks. But we know.

(sarcastic and condescending)

MICHAELB: What bothers me is when christians harass low paid holiday workers when they say "Happy Holidays".

DE MARIA: I don't know what you mean by harassment. Is it only when Christians demonstrate their concerns with a store's policies that you consider it harassment? Or do you also consider it harassment when nonChristians express their dissatisfaction to low paid holiday workers for saying, "Merry Christmas"?

(condescending and accusatory remarks made in response to a simple statement)

DE MARIA: NonChristians assume that Christmas is the celebration of Christmas day alone.

(assumption that only Christians know what they're talking about)

DE MARIA: why should we, Christians, the majority in this country, be made afraid to say "Merry Christmas" under threat of litigation and harassment...
The idea that we must always and everywhere say "Happy Holidays" and we are forbidden to say "Merry Christmas", that is offensive.

(exaggeration of the situation at hand- no one is making Christians fearful of saying 'Merry Christmas'- Christians are reacting to non-religious institutions, such as WALMART not recognizing their religion)

And as far me having exposure to Christianity but not having a love for or knowledge of it- I do have an appreciation for Christianity and I have a wealth of knowledge, more so than many Christians I've encountered in my time. - if I did not at a time have a love for it, why would I have been involved in the long list of activities, events, and volunteer positions I listed to you? As I've already said, I spent a great part of my life in church, teaching, volunteering, praying, reading the Bible, as well as a number other Theological texts- as I was growing up my mother was obtaining her Masters degree in Theology and we discussed her classes and the information she was learning regularly. I assisted her in reviewing and writing papers. When she became a Theology teacher in a Catholic high school I assisted her in the development of lesson plans. I taught Christianity to children. I am knowledgeable in theological matters and have enough experience under my belt to make informed statements and observations without being ridiculed for being just another critical, stupid atheist as you apparently wanted to assume I was.

So please do not make the self righteous, arrogant, and entirely incorrect assumption that because I disagree with you I do not have any appreciation for or knowledge of Christianity. I simply have come to realize that it is not my path.

In the words of Gandhi- 'I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

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Originally Posted by Soldout

So i just dont get it, if christians are really self righteous, arrogant, and condescending individuals then why are you on the Christian domain of the cite. Why dont you spend more time on the other hundred of topics out there on this site. Why come and judge and harass Christians about what they beleive?

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Because I believe that discussion with those of alternate opinions are an essential component of becoming a well rounded and intelligent person. I also believe that I have a right to my opinion, just as you have a rigt to yours. Although I may not agree, I present my perspective, which I believe to be logical. Contrary to your accusation, I am not harassing Christians about what they believe- I never criticized a Christian for believing in Jesus as their savior, for belief in one God, for belief in the resurrection, for their celebration of their holidays. I have no qualms whatsoever with Christianity. It is with the attitude of Christians that I take issue- and this is an issue which impacts not only Christians, but others as well.

I'm sure we can continue debating until next Christmas and never get very far- I persist because my perspective seems to me to be simple and logical- if you don't know what someone celebrates, why assume? Celebrate your holiday as you wish. Wish those who you know celebrate Christmas a Merry Christmas. But don't expect to hear it from those who just don't know and opt not to make an assumption that you are Christian. Don't harrass those who are working their a$$es off to make ends meet at a minimum wage job for saying 'happy holidays' instead of 'merry christmas'. As someone said before on this thread, it just seems so petty.

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Originally Posted by margog85

Ok, if you'd like a list of the things you've said which were condescending, nasty, twisting-what-was actually-said to suit your needs, exaggerations, etc. here it is. I'm sure I missed quite a few, but I'm in a rush right now:

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Thanks for posting these. Although you put your own spin on the matter, they pretty much highlight that I responded in kind to condescending statements.

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MARGOG85: You give examples of oppressive belief systems in other countries but that exists here too, just in different ways.'

DE MARIA: Not happy here are you? Funny how folks that are unhappy in the US won't leave.

(Making assumptions based on what I said to make me seem anti-American, when I was simply stating that there are still groups within the U.S. that are oppressed.)[/I]

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No. Here you actually argued that the US is as oppressive in some ways as countries like Red China and some Islamic countries and I responded sarcastically to a ridiculous statement. I still consider your response ridiculous. I think you were simply being argumentative. If you want me to take your statement seriously, simply provide one instance of an American situation like Iran lining up an shooting all the gay people and Red China putting Christians in death camps.

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MARGOG85: (In regard to the Christian belief that gay marriage should not be legalized) And that is your belief, based upon Christian morality, which you feel should be imposed upon others who may not share your belief.

DE MARIA: Again, you accuse me of imposing beliefs on someone? Is it just your style or do you not know how to articulate your sentences to say what you actually mean? Or do you not understand what I'm saying?. Apparently you simply aren't happy with the idea of majority rule. You would be real happy if you could impose your beliefs on everyone. But our constitution protects us from people who want to impose their beliefs upon us.

(condescending and accusatory- acting as thought I want to impose my beliefs upon others when I'm merely advocating that people should have the freedom to make their own decisions and not have their private lives dictated by laws which stem from religious beliefs that are not their own)

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No, and your new response shows that my statement was right on the money. First, you accuse me of wanting to impose my beliefs. Which I don't. I want "due process." That means I will live with whatever the majority agrees upon. That is the American way.

But to you, the American way, the democratic process, is apparently a system in which the majority's beliefs are imposed on the minority. Well, I guess you have the right to look at it that way. But its an erroneous viewpoint and the democratic process beats the pants out of having the minority dictate what the majority should do.

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DE MARIA: In this country we have the freedom to care. If you object to someone being vocal, then why only when Christians are vocal do you object? Why not when nonChristains are vocal?

(again, making assumptions- I do not object to people being vocal, I simply speak up when I disagree with their perspective to try and bring some logic into view- and what makes you think I am only objecting to things Christian and nothing else? making the assumption that I agree with all things non-Christians may say and am against everything Christians say is a stretch in what you could actually know from this brief discussion)

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Actually, that is just a question. All you had to do was clarify any false assumptions. Why not just answer with, "For your information, I object when nonChristians are vocal about such and such...." But instead, you chose to pretend you were being victimized?

So, prove me wrong. To which non-Christian cause do you object?

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DE MARIA: Have you ever heard of the term, "democracy"? That means we arrive at decisions based on voting. That means that the minority should not impose their will upon the majority.

(condesending)

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No. Sarcasm. You live in a democracy and pretend it is an unjust system imposing the will of the majority on the minority.

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DE MARIA: imposing homosexuality upon society would be just that, an "imposition" to something which is against our very nature.

(twisting my words- I never said homosexuality should be imposed upon society, simply that limiting the freedom of others based on the religious beliefs of one group is wrong)

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Note that I didn't say that YOU were imposing homosexuality upon society. So again, you pretend to be victimized when you are not being victimized.

[

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B]DE MARIA[/B]: See the little "?" at the end. That means it's a question.
(condescending)

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No, a simple question that I addressed to Jillian. Here it is and I quote, "...are you insinuating that only Christians do childish things?"

A reasonable person would have simply answered it, "yes" or "no".

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KP2171: as a Christian, itd be personally nice for others to wish me a Merry Christmas, since thatd mean I was around others who believed as me, but I'm not getting my panties in a wad cause somebody tells me happy holidays. If a gay man wants to celebrate Felis Navidude I couldn't care less.

DE MARIA: But your panties are in a wad because others don't act like you? Are you setting yourself up as the example we should all follow?

(Condescending and sarcastic)

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In response to a condescending and sarcastic remark, "panties in a wad".

And this is a clear example of YOUR lack of partiality. Its fine and dandy for this fellow to characterize Christians who object to "Happy Holidays" as having their panties in a wad. But when I respond in kind, you accuse me of rudeness?

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MARGOG85: Anti-christian bigotry or a generalization based on observation and interaction?

DE MARIA: You admit you are bigotted against Christians. Thanks for the admission.

(twisting things I've said)

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No, I explained why your conclusion is anti-Christian bigotry in the next response.

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MARGOG85: And people like ME make you feel victimized

DE MARIA: You said it yourself.

(removed the question mark from my statement to twist it into what you wanted)

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That is true. It was sarcasm and a play on words.

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DE MARIA: What irritates you is that you want everyone to agree with your anti-Christian agenda. But I won't.

(accusations without basis- my agenda is not anti-Christian it is pro-inclusion; I am not at fault if some hypersensitive Christians feel that including others in turn excludes them)

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You pretty much proved your anti-Christian agenda with your biggotted statement, which you haven't withdrawn I might add.

As for this "inclusion" thing. Understand that forcing people to include or be included is a form of coercion. As Christians we believe in the equality of people and respect their dignity in the eyes of man. But we reserve the right to choose that into which we will be included.

CONT'D

CONT'D

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MARGOG85: That is not an admission to an anti-christian bigotry. It is a statement indicating that my experiences with Christians have provided me with the perspective I now have

DE MARIA: That is bigotry. You are generalizing based upon your limited knowledge.

(condescendingly making the assumption that my statements are based upon limited knowledge)

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That's not an assumption, that is a fact.

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DE MARIA: you come to the Christianity forum and attack Christianity and Christians in every way

(I've done no such thing- intentionally distorting the truth)

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Ok, I guess that two.

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MARGOG85: I hold nothing against the Christian religion itself- and I respect and admire many Christians who are respectful of others and lack the self-righteous edge that you so proudly display.

DE MARIA: In other words, as long as Christians listen to you quietly, you don't mind them being around. But as soon as Christian defend their beliefs, why they're self righteous and rude.

(twisting what I've said to make me out to be the bad guy)

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It sure seems that you want to force me to agree with you. Otherwise, you should have agreed to disagree a long time ago. But you keep coming back and twisting my words as though that's going to help convince me of your argument.

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MARGOG85: Inclusion

DE MARIA: Oh, I see. You want Christians to say, "Oh no, you're right and we're right and everyone is right." Nope. There is such a thing as truth. If you believe you have the truth, then by all means, stand up for it. But Christ is the real Truth and that's who I stand up for.

(twisting what I said and making inferences without grounds)

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Again, explain yourself. I think I have plenty of grounds. Apparently you feel jilted if you aren't included in something. Or perhaps if someone doesn't agree with you. Otherwise, explain yourself. That's the impression I get. If you don't.

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MICHAELB: Back on topic though Christians are free to shop where ever they wish this Holiday season.

DE MARIA: Thanks. But we know.

(sarcastic and condescending)

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I think it sarcastic and condescending of him to pretend to tell me what I already know. How do you suggest that I respond, " Oh thanks, I sure didn't know that. I'll go right out and shop at the nearest store of my choosing."

Get real!

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MICHAELB: What bothers me is when christians
Harass low paid holiday workers when they say "Happy Holidays".

DE MARIA: I don't know what you mean by harassment. Is it only when Christians demonstrate their concerns with a store's policies that you consider it harassment? Or do you also consider it harassment when nonChristians express their dissatisfaction to low paid holiday workers for saying, "Merry Christmas"?

(condescending and accusatory remarks made in response to a simple statement)

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Honest question. He complains when Christians express their frustatrions. Does he complain when nonChristians do the same?

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DE MARIA: NonChristians assume that Christmas is the celebration of Christmas day alone.

(assumption that only Christians know what they're talking about)

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Its not an assumption. Many non-Christians assume that Christmas is the celebration of Christmas day alone.

Here's just one example from Google:

Why Does Christmas Last So Long? - The PhoneBoy Vox
Why in the hell does Christmas seem to start before Thanksgiving and end at New Years? It's one day, and oh by the way, it's meant to celebrate the birth of Christ...
Phoneboy.vox.com/library/post/why-does-christmas-last-so-long.html - 77k -

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DE MARIA: why should we, Christians, the majority in this country, be made afraid to say "Merry Christmas" under threat of litigation and harassment...
The idea that we must always and everywhere say "Happy Holidays" and we are forbidden to say "Merry Christmas", that is offensive.

(exaggeration of the situation at hand- no one is making Christians fearful of saying 'Merry Christmas'- Christians are reacting to non-religious institutions, such as WALMART not recognizing their religion)

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Since so many Christians are expressing concern over the matter, you just have to Google the internet to find out, I don't think I am exaggerating at all.

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And as far me having exposure to Christianity but not having a love for or knowledge of it- I do have an appreciation for Christianity and I have a wealth of knowledge, more so than many Christians I've encountered in my time. - if I did not at a time have a love for it, why would I have been involved in the long list of activities, events, and volunteer positions I listed to you? As I've already said, I spent a great part of my life in church, teaching, volunteering, praying, reading the Bible, as well as a number other Theological texts- as I was growing up my mother was obtaining her Masters degree in Theology and we discussed her classes and the information she was learning regularly. I assisted her in reviewing and writing papers. When she became a Theology teacher in a Catholic high school I assisted her in the development of lesson plans. I taught Christianity to children. I am knowledgeable in theological matters and have enough experience under my belt to make informed statements and observations without being ridiculed for being just another critical, stupid atheist as you apparently wanted to assume I was.

So please do not make the self righteous, arrogant, and entirely incorrect assumption that because I disagree with you I do not have any appreciation for or knowledge of Christianity. I simply have come to realize that it is not my path.

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You didn't answer my question. Why did you feel that I had asked you for your life history? I don't remember saying anything about you directly which would result in your giving me your entire life history. I mean, its nice and everything, but what's the point. You still behave like an anti-Christian.

And, if you respect Christians as you say, you might want to exhibit that respect. I won't take it for granted that you respect Christians when you continually belittle their efforts to keep Christ in Christmas.

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In the words of Gandhi- 'I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

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Another example of your anti-Christian bigotry..

For information, Gandhi was a Hindu. His personification of Christ as a total pacifists was a complete misunderstanding of the Scriptures. Here is what Jesus would say about those who misuse the Word of God:

Matthew 23 33 You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell?

Therefore, Jesus did not respond kindly to people misrepresenting His Word. As for me, I follow Christ. As St. Paul, another follower of Christ once said:

1 Corinthians 9

16 For if I preach the gospel, it is no glory to me, for a necessity lieth upon me: for woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel.

And saying Merry Christmas is my small way of preaching the Gospel.

Sorry for the lengthy response. I didn't want to leave anything out lest I be accused of selectively responding to the message.

Sincerely,

De Maria

margog I had to spread some more rep; but I think you have identified the troll in this conversation, point by point! :)

I don't have the time right now to go through all of that- there were a number of things I'd like to respond to, and will attempt to do so when I have the time.

My point is still that hearing someone you don't even know say 'Merry Christmas' should be of little concern- it's not what people say that is important, it's how they behave. Black Friday, for example, when people line up outside of stores at 5am and trample each other to get the best deals- the commercialization of Christmas- the way that it has turned into a consumer frenzy and the true meaning of the holiday is often merely a backdrop to the commercial aspect.

Hearing an under-paid store associate say 'Merry Christmas' to you while you're overloaded with bags full of unnecessary material items... and then becoming offended in an instance where they don't say it... it just does not make sense to me. Why preach the gospel while simultaneously being a hypocrite and feeding into the commercialism of your sacred holiday? Why not protest the commercialization of Christmas by refusing to excessively buy gifts or protesting stores that push materialism and lines of credit and deep discounts to rope in consumers- instead of feeding into all of that, and then complaining when those same companies fail to recognize Christmas in other ways? They are already distorting the true meaning of the holiday anyway.

The simple words 'Merry Christmas' don't hold as much significance as the actions of people this time of year. That's where the focus should be- but it's not.

In the words of St. Francis of Assisi-
'Preach the gospel wherever you go- and if you must, even use words.'

Wow. 14 pages already?
I've been thinking. The stores provide Christmas lights, Christmas trees, Christmas Decorations. Do other holidays in December use these items? Hanukkah? Nope. Kwanza? Nope. So While the stores are trying not to offend anyone by saying Merry Christmas. Arnt they really offending them by having Christmas things, excuse me, Holiday things in their store? I don't know about you, But I haven't seen any items for Kwanza or Hanukkah at Walmart or Target.

Even as someone who doesn't believe in any religion, I see nothing wrong with saying, "Merry Christmas!". The only time it's a problem is when you can't know someone's religious affiliation. I mean, how would Christians like it if everyone assumed they were Jewish and wished them a happy Hannakuh?

This is just common sense and I can't see why people get so offended. It's not just non-Christians getting offended by being told to have a merry christmas, it's Christians being offended by being told to say, happy holidays if they aren't sure. Is that REALLY so hard? If you don't know, what's so wrong or hard about simply saying happy holidays? Geesh!

Is there anything wrong with Christians saying Merry Christmas, Jews saying Happy Hannukah, and whoever else wishing happy whatever? Why can't we just say what our beliefs are and leave it?

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

margog I had to spread some more rep; but I think you have identified the troll in this conversation, point by point! :)

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Lol! You're funny!

Here is the definition in google:

Participate on a mailing list or discussion board long enough and you'll find that there are certain people who pop in and add messages that are either diametrically opposed to the shared values of the group or subtly insulting or demeaning. If the author is just offensive, well, there are people like that everywhere, unfortunately. They're just, well, offensive.

Lets see who fits this description, you or I?

people who pop in and add messages that are either diametrically opposed to the shared values of the group

I'm a Christian on a Christian thread giving my Chrstian perspective on the matter of whether to say "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas".

You are a nonChristian on a Christian thread disagreeing with Christians.

Duh?

or subtly insulting or demeaning.

You're the one calling me a troll.:

Case closed.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Is there anything wrong with Christians saying Merry Christmas, Jews saying Happy Hannukah, and whoever else wishing happy whatever? Why can't we just say what our beliefs are and leave it?

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Just to clarify:

I hope you mean Christians saying Merry Christmas to other Christians, and Jews saying Happy Hannukah to other Jews. Surely you're not suggesting that a Christian wish a Jewish person a Merry Christman and visa-versa, are you?

Why not? If someone said Happy Hannukah to me, I would say Merry Christmas to them.

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Originally Posted by margog85

I don't have the time right now to go through all of that- there were a number of things I'd like to respond to, and will attempt to do so when I have the time.

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Whenever you have time is fine with me.

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My point is still that hearing someone you don't even know say 'Merry Christmas' should be of little concern- it's not what people say that is important, it's how they behave.. .

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Ok, so it seems we're starting over. But keep in mind my point is we should vote with our dollars.

Are you asking me to comment on your point above?

Are you saying that we as Christians should put ourselves in the position of judging whether someone is worthy of saying, "Merry Christmas"?

Are you saying that if a person who appears to be a Hindu comes up to me and says, "Merry Christmas!", I should say, "Stop that, you aren't worthy to utter those words!"

But as Christians we are told by the Master not to judge, lest we be judged. So that would go against our religion.

In addition, I don't see any reason why a nonChristian can't wish me a "Merry Christmas".

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Black Friday, for example, when people line up outside of stores at 5am and trample each other to get the best deals- the commercialization of Christmas- the way that it has turned into a consumer frenzy and the true meaning of the holiday is often merely a backdrop to the commercial aspect.

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You are off topic.

The issue is not whether people are hypocrites, nor whether Christmas is being commercialized, nor whether Christmas has become a consumer frenzy.

The issue is, should we be offended by someone saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays".

My answer is no. But vote your preference with your dollars.

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Hearing an under-paid store associate say 'Merry Christmas' to you while you're overloaded with bags full of unnecessary material items... and then becoming offended in an instance where they don't say it... it just does not make sense to me.

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Nor to me.

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Why preach the gospel while simultaneously being a hypocrite and feeding into the commercialism of your sacred holiday?

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We are not being hypocrites when we preach the Gospel in or out of season. That means that we preach the Gospel when its convenient and when its inconvenient.

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Why not protest the commercialization of Christmas by refusing to excessively buy gifts

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Most Christians that I know already do so. But "excessive" is a relative term.

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or protesting stores that push materialism and lines of credit and deep discounts to rope in consumers- instead of feeding into all of that, and then complaining when those same companies fail to recognize Christmas in other ways?

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Because we place the blame where it belongs. No one is twisting anyone's arm to get into debt. It is ultimately the individual's responsibility to watch his budget.

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They are already distorting the true meaning of the holiday anyway.

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We are working on that one also. For years, Christians have been concerned about the over commercialization of Christmas. Probably for decades.

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The simple words 'Merry Christmas' don't hold as much significance as the actions of people this time of year. That's where the focus should be- but it's not.

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I think you are over reacting to one little thread on a little forum on the internet. If you go to Church, to prayer services or to Mass, you will find that many times Christians speak of these concerns. In fact, I've never heard a homily on whether to say "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays", but I have heard many on focusing on Jesus during this tumultous part of the year.

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In the words of St. Francis of Assisi-
'Preach the gospel wherever you go- and if you must, even use words.'

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St. Francis is a wonderful Saint and one of my favorites. But St. Francis is not the Church. And the Church is calling us to evangelize by word as well as works.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

Why not? If someone said Happy Hannukah to me, I would say Merry Christmas to them.

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I suppose... As long as you wouldn't be offended and just trying to offend him back.

What if someone said happy roshashana, or yom kippur to you? Now you have no comparative holiday to respond in kind to. Would you be offended that this person assumed you were Jewish and celebrated Roshashana? Just being the devil's advocate here. ;)

I don't think it's wrong for people to express well wishings to others.

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Originally Posted by savedsinner7

I don't think it's wrong for people to express well wishings to others.

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The Great Flying Spagetti Monster looks down on you and wishes you well.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

The Great Flying Spagetti Monster looks down on you and wishes you well.

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Merry Christmas to you! :D

Well, when someone tells me "happy holidays", I just say, "thank you, Merry Christmas". I work at a bank and I tell my customers merry Christmas. It is just natural to me. I've never thought of saying "Happy Holidays". It's not something I spend hours on thinking about.
I think some things are way over thought. I mean, have you heard, Santa can't say
"Ho, Ho, Ho" anymore. It is offensive to some, especially after the Don Imus thing this year. Santa should say "Ha, Ha, Ha' now. Come on people, is this what it has all come down too?

I think it's important to wish people happy holidays using a specific holiday greeting that suits the one that THEY choose to celebrate. Happy Hannukah, Peaceful Ramadan, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Joyous Quanza, etc. All I need to do is ask them what holiday they're preparing for before I open my mouth. Simply casting a holiday greeting without regard for the recipient is disrespectful.

Being that this is a Christian discussion, I'd like to wish y'all a very merry and blessed Christmas!

Wonder why nobody ever says Merry Mitramass: after all December 25th is HIS birtday, not Christ's.

Interesting thought Aton3.

No wonder my 2yo is scared to death... I would be too if some big guy came up to me saying ha, ha, ha... now we laugh about christmas?? What kind of message does THAT send? I got the email too... it gave me chills, so true.. so true

It should just be Merry Christmas because ALL of these stores have Christmas lights, Trees, Santa etc so if they really want to be "inclusive" of all religions they should not display Christmas lights, play Christmas music e.t.c Because that means the store is sending a message that they do support Christmas anyway. So Why not say Merry Christamas.

They put those lights up because it's all about sales, not the birth of anything.

A lot of those stores DON'T cater specifically to Christmas. They carry Christmas items because they SELL, and the whole point of a retail store is to SELL things that their customers want to buy.

I simply wish a Happy Solstice, or Happy Saturnalia to anyone that wishes me Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays. My holiday has many of the same traditions--as a matter of fact, Christianity as a whole "borrowed" those pagan traditions centuries ago.

So... I'm not Christian, but I put up a tree, have a wreath, exchange gifts, and light candles. Instead of angels and Santas on my tree, though, I have icicles and images of the goddess, and mistletoe and a LOT of lights--symbols of MY religion.

While I agree that there are fewer pagans than Christians or Jews or Muslims--the stores are NOT just catering to Christians.

You want Christ back in Christmas? Then by all means wish people a Merry Christmas. Just don't get mad when they wish YOU happy holidays because they aren't Christians.

THAT is where the problem is: Christians get all huffy and self-righteous about OTHER religions celebrating something at THEIR holiday time, and want people to JUST acknowledge Christmas. Well, guess what? I make a POINT of offending Christians that get all huffy about something as dumb as saying "happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"

As far as taking it out on minimum wage employees who are just doing what they're told to do--why not ask a manager instead? Why not write a letter to the company in question? Why take it out on some poor kid trying to earn money for the HOLIDAYS? Why not just turn the other cheek and wish them a Merry Christmas in return and move on? Why get so angry about it at all?

Don't you have anything more important to worry about? ARen't there millions of people NOT having a merry holiday this year--shouldn't you take a dollar every time you get mad at a store clerk for saying "happy holidays" and give it to the Salvation Army to show what a good Christian you are?

Vote with your dollars if you like--I do the same--but don't get mad because people are sick of being told that Christians (who've had their way for DECADES) feel oppressed.

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Originally Posted by Soldout

It should just be Merry Christmas because ALL of these stores have Christmas lights, Trees, Santa etc so if they really want to be "inclusive" of all religions they should not display Christmas lights, play Christmas music e.t.c Because that means the store is sending a message that they do support Christmas anyway. so Why not say Merry Christamas.

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My former boss (a Jew) decorates his house with garland, mistletoe, ornaments, lights, wrapped presents, reindeer, wreaths and an enormous tree (he calls it a Hanukkah bush for fun). He also enjoys Christmas music, especially the instrumentals. So it's not just Christians who buy and enjoy these things.

ETA:

Even me, a heathen atheist has a tree. I also celebrate with my brothers, cousins and friends each year with "Christmas Beer" (buy lots of exotic beer and sample) and with the women in my family with "Christmas Tea". We also have Christmas Eve dinner and exchange small gifts, then on Christmas morning we have "Christmas Brunch" and open all the rest of the gifts. NO ONE (except my 80-year old grandmother) in my family is a Christian.

You might make life easier on yourself by not confusing the 'Christ' of Christmas, with the Jesus of history. Don't try so hard to take the 'Happy' out of Happy Holidays.

You know, I am one of those "crazy" christians. I almost take offense to be lumped together with a whole group of people by someone who doesn't know me. I digress...

I wish people a merry christmas, because that is what I celebrate. I am doing the wishing. So, Since it is my wish, I wish you a Merry christmas.
Get over it.

NowWhat--Thank you very much! You have a Happy Solstice, this Saturday, and may the New Year bring you peace and happiness!

(See how easy that was? No offense was taken, and BOTH sides got to wish their own holiday!)

Synnen, I didn't take offense to that at all. :)

Wow, two adults able to express their own feelings and no one got offended. What a novel idea.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

They put those lights up because it's all about sales, not the birth of anything.

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Yes so if they want to continue those sales they should go all the way and just say merry Christmas because we know that what they are saying by hanging Christmas lights e.t.c

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Originally Posted by Synnen

A lot of those stores DON'T cater specifically to Christmas. They carry Christmas items because they SELL, and the whole point of a retail store is to SELL things that their customers want to buy.

I simply wish a Happy Solstice, or Happy Saturnalia to anyone that wishes me Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays. My holiday has many of the same traditions--as a matter of fact, Christianity as a whole "borrowed" those pagan traditions centuries ago.

So...I'm not Christian, but I put up a tree, have a wreath, exchange gifts, and light candles. Instead of angels and Santas on my tree, though, I have icicles and images of the goddess, and mistletoe and a LOT of lights--symbols of MY religion.

While I agree that there are fewer pagans than Christians or Jews or Muslims--the stores are NOT just catering to Christians.

You want Christ back in Christmas? Then by all means wish people a Merry Christmas. Just don't get mad when they wish YOU happy holidays because they aren't Christians.

THAT is where the problem is: Christians get all huffy and self-righteous about OTHER religions celebrating something at THEIR holiday time, and want people to JUST acknowledge Christmas. Well, guess what? I make a POINT of offending Christians that get all huffy about something as dumb as saying "happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"

As far as taking it out on minimum wage employees who are just doign what they're told to do--why not ask a manager instead? Why not write a letter to the company in question? Why take it out on some poor kid trying to earn money for the HOLIDAYS? Why not just turn the other cheek and wish them a Merry Christmas in return and move on? Why get so angry about it at all?

Don't you have anything more important to worry about? ARen't there millions of people NOT having a merry holiday this year--shouldn't you take a dollar every time you get mad at a store clerk for saying "happy holidays" and give it to the Salvation Army to show what a good Christian you are?

Vote with your dollars if you like--I do the same--but don't get mad because people are sick of being told that Christians (who've had their way for DECADES) feel oppressed.

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Lol... :D you people crack me up. So do you worship pagon gods, Odin? And the moon god and the sun god?. lol Unless you worship pagon gods you are actually helping Christians celebrate Christmas by putting up christmas lights buying gifts and having a Christmas tree. Gift giving and santa was a tradition adopted by CHristians during Christmas time as a way to symbolise the gift God gave us, His Son. Santa Clause is St Nicholas whose wealthy parents raised him to be a devout Christian. He gave away his wealth to the poor and had a reputation for secret gift-giving juring Christmas. So You can try and non-Christianise it as much as you want but the fact still remains that those tradistions were adopted by Christians hundreds of years ago for the purpose of celebrating Christ's Birth. So if you want to part take in OUR tradition of Christmas and hang Christmas trees and lights that's fine, but don't try and justify yourself by looking to its pagon origins as a way to not look like a Hypocrite for celebrating a Christian holiday. Don't tell people NOT to say Merry CHristmas to you but at the same time you are hanging Christmas lights and decorating trees don't you think that is having double standards? Unless of course you are one of the last 3 people on earth who still worship the moon and sun god.

Believe what you want---pagan worship of the sun and moon and nature has been around longer than Christianity, and had most of your Christmas traditions in place WELL before the birth of Christ.

You can give me websites that tell me that the lights you hang symbolize the star the wise men followed, and I can counter with websites that say it came from the pagan tradition of keeping a light lit through the longest night of the year, in hopes that the Sun would be reborn again in the morning.

You'll point to Saint Nicholas and his tradition of giving gifts of charity to others as the origin of the gift giving, and I'll point out that the Roman Saturnalia existed LONG before St. Nick.

We could go back and forth all day--yet in the end, my traditions are older than yours. I celebrate the Solstice, and we'll be exchanging gifts on Saturday around a fire.

The thing that I think is funniest here--you really don't realize how arrogant you sound, making it as though everyone else has CHRISTMAS traditions, and just calls them something else. Is there enough adult in you to wish me Merry Christmas, and accept Happy Solstice in return, both for the spirit in which they're offered, rather than the religious war you make it?

Lead by your actions. If you act a sulky child because someone doesn't wish you a Merry Christmas, and says "Happy Holidays" because THEY don't know which holiday you celebrate, well--don't be surprised when you give the impression that Christians are sulky children who want their own way. Wishing them a Merry Christmas in return, and really meaning it, would make you out to be more adult, and more faithful, and make you look a better person.

Edit: I never said not to tell me Merry Christmas, btw--I just said that I will wish you a joyful time of MY holiday in return. It's when people get MAD that I'm not following their religion that I get upset. I happily accept all wishes for a joyful holiday--whatever holiday that might be.

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

My former boss (a Jew) decorates his house with garland, mistletoe, ornaments, lights, wrapped presents, reindeer, wreaths and an enormous tree (he calls it a Hanukkah bush for fun). He also enjoys Christmas music, especially the instrumentals. So it's not just Christians who buy and enjoy these things.

ETA:

Even me, a heathen atheist has a tree. I also celebrate with my brothers, cousins and friends each year with "Christmas Beer" (buy lots of exotic beer and sample) and with the women in my family with "Christmas Tea". We also have Christmas Eve dinner and exchange small gifts, then on Christmas morning we have "Christmas Brunch" and open all the rest of the gifts. NO ONE (except my 80-year old grandmother) in my family is a Christian.

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Of course! "everyone" celebrates Christmas there is nothing wrong with that, I am glad you do... I just find it funny that the same people who say Don't say "Merry Christmas" say "Happy Holidays" are the same people buying Christmas lights, lighting candles, decorating Christmas Trees, Buying Gifts, taking their kids to see father Christmas St Nicholas e.t.c It just doesn't make any sense to me because Christians adopted those traditions as a way to express and celebrate the birth of their savior and non Christians want to part take in the traditions but they don't want us to say merry Christmas. So I think non-christians need to make up their minds. If they want to part take in our Christmas traditions, trees stanta etc, they are free to do so but they should not have double standard and demand that we call it happy holiday because it is just a holiday, its Christmas. If on the other hand non-Christians don't want us to say Merry Christmas to people then inturn Christmas should not be made public, so they should stop putting Christmas lights trees in stores and public places so that we don't offend anyone with our traditions. Then we can leave the lights, tress, santa etc to Christians to practice in their homes or at Church. So it is simple you can't have it both ways because it send mixed messages. A store clerk will say happy holidays to you but they have a Christmas tree in the window and a big picture of Santa, that a double standard, and it sends mixed messages. So I like that all religions part take in Christmas traditions, but its just anoying when those same people complain about the Phrase "merry Christmas" but the next day they take their kids to go see Santa.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Believe what you want---pagan worship of the sun and moon and nature has been around longer than Christianity, and had most of your Christmas traditions in place WELL before the birth of Christ.

You can give me websites that tell me that the lights you hang symbolize the star the wise men followed, and I can counter with websites that say it came from the pagan tradition of keeping a light lit through the longest night of the year, in hopes that the Sun would be reborn again in the morning.

You'll point to Saint Nicholas and his tradition of giving gifts of charity to others as the origin of the gift giving, and I'll point out that the Roman Saturnalia existed LONG before St. Nick.

We could go back and forth all day--yet in the end, my traditions are older than yours. I celebrate the Solstice, and we'll be exchanging gifts on Saturday around a fire.

The thing that I think is funniest here--you really don't realize how arrogant you sound, making it as though everyone else has CHRISTMAS traditions, and just calls them something else. Is there enough adult in you to wish me Merry Christmas, and accept Happy Solstice in return, both for the spirit in which they're offered, rather than the religious war you make it?

Lead by your actions. If you act a sulky child because someone doesn't wish you a Merry Christmas, and says "Happy Holidays" because THEY don't know which holiday you celebrate, well--don't be surprised when you give the impression that Christians are sulky children who want their own way. Wishing them a Merry Christmas in return, and really meaning it, would make you out to be more adult, and more faithful, and make you look a better person.

Edit: I never said not to tell me Merry Christmas, btw--I just said that I will wish you a joyful time of MY holiday in return. It's when people get MAD that I'm not following their religion that I get upset. I happily accept all wishes for a joyful holiday--whatever holiday that might be.

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Like I said Synnen since your justification for participating in what most call the perks of Christmas, is its Pagon origin, you can decorate your tree to celebrate your pagon gods. I have no problem with that.