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Originally Posted by paraclete

the is a very basic falacy in what is stated here and that is mind or consciousness is the same as spirit. The human being is a tripartied beast.; body, mind and spirit. difficult to prove I know but if I can hear my spirit, I do so with my mind

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A lot depends on whether you are talking science, psychology, sociology, religion or philosophy. Each discipline presents us with a different view of mind, brain, consciousness, spirit and soul. Some disciplines use these terms interchangeably while other assign specific meanings to certain terms.

For example, Sociology is interested as to why people actually believe in spirits, souls and religion. It doesn't actually investigate whether such things actually exist.

Science on the other hand doesn't actually accept the soul or spirit as some type of abstract entity or substance independent of the physical. From a scientific point of view we can say that, "to know how the brain works is to know how the soul works ". In the end science is only investigates physical things in order to turn up physical explanations.

I would assume that different religions tend to have different explanations as to what the soul or spirit actually is. The essence of such explanations is probably centred on the claim that the soul/spirit continues on an existence even after death.

Philosophy provides an interesting history in this area. The idea of soul and spirit was the basis for much philosophical discussions for a thousand years or more. Recent development in the field has largely done away with the idea of soul/spirit in favour of brain and mind identity theories. Soul/spirit has been largely replaced with theories of consciousness.


Tut

Well Tut I don't seek to explain soul and spirit by investigating theories. I understand what spirit is by experience

A soul or spirit can not be explained by any theory, it can not be investigated, once you believe you can, you have lost the concept and faith and belief. There are things that humans can not understand and can not prove. This is one.

Most faiths and religions have very same concept of soul or spirit. From Buddhist to Christians and the dozens between, it is the true person or self that lives past death. Where it goes or how it does it, may vary but the soul is who we are, the body is merely the shell it is in at this time.

I am still in doubt sorry. How can an Atheist start to believe in the soul? There must be some sort of reasoning if not proof.

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Originally Posted by Roddilla

I am still in doubt sorry. How can an Atheist start to believe in the soul? There must be some sort of reasoning if not proof.

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What proof would you like to see? It seems on many subjects short of an actual capture nothing is proof enough.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

A soul or spirit can not be explained by any theory, it can not be investigated, once you believe you can, you have lost the concept and faith and belief. There are things that humans can not understand and can not prove. This is one.

Most faiths and religions have very same concept of soul or spirit. From Buddhist to Christians and the dozens between, it is the true person or self that lives past death. Where it goes or how it does it, may vary but the soul is who we are, the body is merely the shell it is in at this time.

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Hi Fr. Chuck,

I learn towards that opinion, but I can not prove it.


Tut

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Originally Posted by Roddilla

I am still in doubt sorry. How can an Atheist start to believe in the soul? There must be some sort of reasoning if not proof.

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Hi again Roddilla,

I guess the answer to the first part of your question is really centred on individual atheist. In other words, it depends on the atheist. However, I am reasonably confident in saying that most atheists only accept proof of physical things. By proof of physical things, I mean scientific proof.

As far as the second part of your question is concerned I would say there have been many 'proofs' over the centuries for the existence of a soul/spirit. Because we cannot see, touch, smell, or hear a soul then we are restricted largely to metaphysical arguments for the existence of such things.

An atheist may well ask the question in a scientific sense, "Can you let me feel, see, touch or hear a soul?" If we cannot accommodate him/her then, from their point of view, there is no proof a soul exists.

This is the legacy of science and some people believe this is the be all and end all of the argument. I think in scientific terms these are strong arguments that are difficult to overcome.

Kant was probably right when he claimed that the problem with metaphysical arguments is that it is very easy to construct a metaphysical argument that argues for the exact opposite ( in this particular instance-there is no soul). We have no way of determining the valid argument. This is because we cannot test the validity of such arguments in terms of seeing, hearing touching or smelling.

*Please note that Kant did not actually say, there is no soul. I just used that as an example of the reasoning process.

When it comes to science we find it relatively easy to prove the existence of
Physical things. When it comes to the non-physical soul it is easy to prove its existence to ourselves. The problem is proving it to the satisfaction of everyone.

Tut

Tut
The real question is are you in the right place at the right time or are you going to stand on the street corner and watch the bus go by. That's how I see athiests, standing on the street corner saying did you see the destination of that bus.

Spiritual things can be manifested, physically felt, but you have to have faith and really you have to be seeking. An attitude of it doesn't exist because I can't see it will get you nowhere, after all who are you?