Ask Me Help Desk - Justification by faith and the Catholic Sacramental system

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Ok, I guess I'm getting you mixed up. Who is it that said that after justification we must work in thanksgiving to God?

I didn't use the word "must." I said that, in thanks to God for His grace and mercy, we show our love to Him by doing good works.

Has anyone ever given you a gift -- a big one -- and it was totally free with no repayment expected?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I mean that its hard to pin down what Protestants believe. There are too many flavors.

Regarding some things, perhaps, but when it comes to salvation, I'm guessing we're pretty much in agreement.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Regarding some things, perhaps, but when it comes to salvation, I'm guessing we're pretty much in agreement.

Some believe Baptism is required.
Some don't.
Some believe in OSAS.
Some don't.
That's all I can think of right now, but there are several personal quirks to which Protestants give almost every doctrine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Some believe Baptism is required.
Some don't.
Some believe in OSAS.
Some don't.
That's all I can think of right now, but there are several personal quirks to which Protestants give almost every doctrine.

"Personal quirks"?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I didn't use the word "must." I said that, in thanks to God for His grace and mercy, we show our love to Him by doing good works.

OK. Now lets see what Scripture says:
Romans 2:6-9 (King James Version)

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Sounds to me that this verse says that God will give eternal life to those who continue patiently in well DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality.

Verse 8 has that word, "obey" again. This time it sounds as though those who don't obey are condemned. In verse 9, it sounds as though those who don't obey are the ones who do evil.

But to he that does good works, glory, honour and peace.

How do you interpret that section? Is eternal life equivalent to salvation?

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Has anyone ever given you a gift -- a big one -- and it was totally free with no repayment expected?

Yes. But they were generally people who already loved me and whom I loved in return. They didn't go around giving big gifts to everybody for no reason.

That's what you claim that God does. That He gives everyone salvation for no reason.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Yes. But they were generally people who already loved me and whom I loved in return. They didn't go around giving big gifts to everybody for no reason.

Did you try to pay them back somehow? Did you feel any obligation toward them?

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That's what you claim that God does. That He gives everyone salvation for no reason.

He makes salvation available for everyone. Each/any of us can refuse.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Is eternal life equivalent to salvation?

No.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No.

What's the difference between eternal life and salvation? And how do you interpret Romans 2:6-10?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

"Personal quirks"?

Yep.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Did you try to pay them back somehow?

Non sequitur. Our relationship was already set. They didn't give me gifts because I was a stranger to them.

The only ones who ever gave me gifts which I didn't need to pay back were relatives for whom I had done many chores. I was raised in the days that children were sent to the store on the corner to buy all kinds of stuff.

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Did you feel any obligation toward them?

Yes.

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He makes salvation available for everyone.

No, He doesn't. Scripture says so:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

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Each/any of us can refuse.

By disobeying Him. He doesn't send us a questionnaire.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Non sequitur. Our relationship was already set. They didn't give me gifts because I was a stranger to them.

Did a non-relative ever give you a large gift?

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raised in the day when

I was there then too.

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By disobeying Him. He doesn't send us a questionnaire.

Each/any of us can say, "No, thanks," and many do.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Exactly the mystery I'm trying to unlock. Why do they believe that God does not require works?

In my opinion, they locked on to one verse of the Bible and forgot the others.

But, I think too many Catholics, and I was one of them, are in danger of committing the opposite mistake. Perhaps from overzealousness, we have locked on to the other verse by the other Apostle and tried to force that meaning on too many verses which are not talking about that at all.

I recently reviewed some of Hume's philosophy. He is acclaimed by some Protestants as a philosopher who proposes that "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself.” At least in part God and His supernatural creation is denied ; this autonomous intellectual demands the right to be free of moral and social order. Indeed, Protestantism is in conflict with the Church, and perhaps directly opposed to the Divine.

Furthermore, I've come to the opinion that Protestantism is symptomatic of the H1N1 virus of faith. This is a designer virus attacking right reasoning since it's introduction by an errant monk. (I've recently been convinced that he was pathologically mad – but that's for another thread). It's defined by Catholics of that day as liberalism; being somewhat similar to the political variant. Liberalism as Protestantism holds as a right emancipation from Divine Sovereignty in all sectors of life that control and judge any matter, whatsoever. Satisfaction demands that Divine will of God conform to that of man's. Protestantism views itself as the true authority that resides in the interior of the each individual with the power remake God's creation in the Protestant image.

What Liberalism holds for itself is best described by the definition adopted by Herm Gruber; "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself.” At least in part and perhaps in some cases without realizing it, liberalism denies God in pursuit of an autonomous freedom; ultimately finding conflict with the Church. This is true whether the liberal is Catholic or Protestant. Once completely overtaken by the disease, no 'right' or no 'wrong' can be identified; only that which warms the interior, what feels good becomes good. When applied to an exegesis of Scripture, without right reasoning in the Magisterium the Gospels become distorted, to the point of being unrecognizable by its holy author.

As an autonomous authority Protestantism requires “freedom from” morals as well as “freedom to” implement a proxy ethic independent of God's will. As such Scriptures become subjective to the individual, as well as different for each individual (or from group to group); thus we hear the refrain "one religion is as good as another."The regard for the Sacrament of Communion is another example of a proxy faith found Protestant Churches. Faith becomes a social construct based on whether it feels right, changing from time to time depending on expediency. Discipline in faith is exercised less and less, becoming weedy with the passing of time, until all discipline in right reasoning is rejected. The fault seems to be conclusions drawn from an autonomous intellect lacking guidance and authority. As such judgments become rationalizations, without a foundation in an absolute truth such as that only found in Catechism. Protestantism, as does liberalism, becomes the program of rationalism; where “Free thought begets free morals, or immorality- Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. WHOEVER THINKS WHAT HE PLEASES WILL DO WHAT HE PLEASES (sic).”

Like the viruses found in nature, there is no real immunity short of the protection the Church offers. The body of beliefs merely become accustom to invading profanation with each variant of liberalism mutating from simple schismatic sects to complex variants completely void of any vestige of Christianity. There is however a treatment facility, a Divine hospice, the Catholic Church. The medication is found daily in Mass, in the meat and blood of the Real Presence.

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

There is however a treatment facility, a Divine hospice, the Catholic Church. .

JoeT

Not a good analogy Joe a hospice is where you take the dying. Are you suggesting catholics are waiting for death in the busom of the Church?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

I recently reviewed some of Hume's philosophy. He is acclaimed by some Protestants as a philosopher who proposes that "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself.” At least in part God and His supernatural creation is denied ; this autonomous intellectual demands the right to be free of moral and social order. Indeed, Protestantism is in conflict with the Church, and perhaps directly opposed to the Divine.

Furthermore, I've come to the opinion that Protestantism is symptomatic of the H1N1 virus of faith. This however, is a designer virus attacking right reasoning since introduction by an errant monk. (I've recently been convinced that he was pathologically mad – but that's for another thread). It's defined by Catholics of that day as liberalism; being somewhat similar to the political variant. Liberalism as Protestantism holds as a right emancipation from Divine Sovereignty in all sectors of life that control and judge any matter, whatsoever. Satisfaction demands that Divine will of God conform to that of man's. Protestantism views itself as the true authority that resides in the interior of the each individual with the power remake God's creation in the Protestant image.

What Liberalism holds for itself is best described by the definition adopted by Herm Gruber; "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself.” At least in part and perhaps in some cases without realizing it, liberalism denies God in pursuit of an autonomous freedom; ultimately finding conflict with the Church. This is true whether the liberal is Catholic or Protestant. Once completely overtaken by the disease, no 'right' or no 'wrong' can be identified; only that which warms the interior, what feels good becomes good. When applied to an exegesis of Scripture, without right reasoning in the Magisterium the Gospels become distorted, to the point of being unrecognizable by its holy author.

As an autonomous authority Protestantism requires “freedom from” morals as well as “freedom to” implement a proxy ethic independent of God's will. As such Scriptures become subjective to the individual, as well as different for each individual (or from group to group); thus we hear the refrain "one religion is as good as another."The regard for the Sacrament of Communion is another example of a proxy faith found Protestant Churches. Faith becomes a social construct based on whether or not it feels right, changing from time to time depending on expediency. Discipline in faith is exercised less and less, becoming weedy with the passing of time, until all discipline in right reasoning is rejected. The fault seems to be conclusions drawn from an autonomous intellect lacking guidance and authority. As such judgments become rationalizations, without a foundation in an absolute truth such as that only found in Catechism. Protestantism, as does liberalism, becomes the program of rationalism; where “Free thought begets free morals, or immorality- Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. WHOEVER THINKS WHAT HE PLEASES WILL DO WHAT HE PLEASES (sic).”

Like the viruses found in nature, there is no real immunity short of the protection the Church offers. The body of beliefs merely become accustom to invading profanation with each variant of liberalism mutating from simple schismatic sects to complex variants completely void of any vestige of Christianity. There is however a treatment facility, a Divine hospice, the Catholic Church. The medication is found daily in Mass, in the meat and blood of the Real Presence.

JoeT

Hi Joe,

That is a 'big call' at the beginning. What does Hume have to do with being a Protestant? Hume was a important influence in the development of Agnosticism. Are you saying that Protestants are agnostic?

Are you blaming Hume everything liberal? The main body of you thesis is an oversimplification of the development of liberal thought.

There is also a strange call at the end as well. You say, 'Protestantism, as does liberalism, becomes the programme of rationalism;... '

Hume rejects ethical rationalism. In other words, he rejects the idea that we discover morality through a process of reasoning.

Regards

Tut

P.S. I think I get it. We have been though this before. If you substitute 'empirical methodology' for 'rationalism' then it would make sense.

It probably should read 'Protestantism, as does liberalism, becomes the programme of empirical methodology... '

Your definition of rationalism is one that doesn't acknowledge or take into account British Empiricism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

Not a good analogy Joe a hospice is where you take the dying. Are you suggesting Catholics are waiting for death in the bosom of the Church?

You might say that. ”Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall live also together with Christ” (Rom 6:8)

I thought 'hospice' was a right fine choice of words.

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

I recently reviewed some of Hume’s philosophy. He is acclaimed by some Protestants as a philosopher who proposes that "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself.” At least in part God and His supernatural creation is denied ; this autonomous intellectual demands the right to be free of moral and social order. Indeed, Protestantism is in conflict with the Church, and perhaps directly opposed to the Divine.

Furthermore, I’ve come to the opinion that Protestantism is symptomatic of the H1N1 virus of faith. This is a designer virus attacking right reasoning since it's introduction by an errant monk. (I’ve recently been convinced that he was pathologically mad – but that’s for another thread). It’s defined by Catholics of that day as liberalism; being somewhat similar to the political variant. Liberalism as Protestantism holds as a right emancipation from Divine Sovereignty in all sectors of life that control and judge any matter, whatsoever. Satisfaction demands that Divine will of God conform to that of man’s. Protestantism views itself as the true authority that resides in the interior of the each individual with the power remake God’s creation in the Protestant image.

What Liberalism holds for itself is best described by the definition adopted by Herm Gruber; "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself.” At least in part and perhaps in some cases without realizing it, liberalism denies God in pursuit of an autonomous freedom; ultimately finding conflict with the Church. This is true whether the liberal is Catholic or Protestant. Once completely overtaken by the disease, no ‘right’ or no ‘wrong’ can be identified; only that which warms the interior, what feels good becomes good. When applied to an exegesis of Scripture, without right reasoning in the Magisterium the Gospels become distorted, to the point of being unrecognizable by its holy author.

As an autonomous authority Protestantism requires “freedom from” morals as well as “freedom to” implement a proxy ethic independent of God’s will. As such Scriptures become subjective to the individual, as well as different for each individual (or from group to group); thus we hear the refrain "one religion is as good as another."The regard for the Sacrament of Communion is another example of a proxy faith found Protestant Churches. Faith becomes a social construct based on whether or not it feels right, changing from time to time depending on expediency. Discipline in faith is exercised less and less, becoming weedy with the passing of time, until all discipline in right reasoning is rejected. The fault seems to be conclusions drawn from an autonomous intellect lacking guidance and authority. As such judgments become rationalizations, without a foundation in an absolute truth such as that only found in Catechism. Protestantism, as does liberalism, becomes the program of rationalism; where “Free thought begets free morals, or immorality- Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. WHOEVER THINKS WHAT HE PLEASES WILL DO WHAT HE PLEASES (sic).”

Like the viruses found in nature, there is no real immunity short of the protection the Church offers. The body of beliefs merely become accustom to invading profanation with each variant of liberalism mutating from simple schismatic sects to complex variants completely void of any vestige of Christianity. There is however a treatment facility, a Divine hospice, the Catholic Church. The medication is found daily in Mass, in the meat and blood of the Real Presence.

JoeT

I agree. But I caution or at least I feel I should mention that Protestantism is made up of individuals. It is not a monolith. And by the grace of God there go I.

And so I focus on how to bring that grace to them. Scripture says that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. Therefore I seek to convey to them and to all the truth taught by the Catholic Church, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Then they can begin to receive that medication that WE ALL sorely need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Did a non-relative ever give you a large gift?

Not that I can recall.

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I was there then too.

I'm not telling my age.

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Each/any of us can say, "No, thanks," and many do.

But we didn't, did we?

What would you do if a stranger sent you $500?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I'm not telling my age.

I've already guessed it.

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Would you say that to your mother?

Yes, I have, especially when I thought I was smarter than she. Bet you have to.

People say no to God's gift of salvation (in addition to His other gifts) all the time.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What would you do if a stranger sent you $500?

Probably ask what its for?

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I've already guessed it.

Shhh!

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Yes, I have, especially when I thought I was smarter than she. Bet you have to.

Caught that one huh? I changed it because I was confused whether you were referring to the Gift of God or the gift a family member had given us.

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People say no to God's gift of salvation (in addition to His other gifts) all the time.

Yes. But we haven't. So, what would happen to those who say yes, but indeed do not show any gratitude:
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Probably ask what its for?

It's a gift. That's all.