 |
Hi Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
That's exactly what I mean; making the speaker not the Redeemer. Thank you for making it simpler.
I had coloring and color-identifying mistake lately. It's been edited now. I am very sorry if it confused you. But I am glad you got my point.
You logic escapes me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
I never thought that you were suggesting that that the speaker was says "Thus says the lord". That is a description portion of the test written by the person who penned the book of Isaiah to identify who the speaker was. But that changes nothing because having identified the speaker, the same identification given in verse 12, you are left with the speaker being Jesus.Quote:
Likewise,
Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
The red colored text is the speakers' words and He is talking about what the Lord said and not about Himself.
That makes the speaker not the Redeemer the speaker is talking about.
I think I should be the one who should tell you this. Read below.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Now, you're changing declaration. If I am not mistaken, you are the one who confirm that the one who said "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" is the speaker. I even asked you to clear it to me TWICE and you said it is the speaker who said that phrase. (please refer to post #54 and #58). And now, you are saying it's the person who penned the book of Isaiah? Now, I am clueless about your stand.Quote:
I never thought that you were suggesting that that the speaker was says "Thus says the lord". That is a description portion of the test written by the person who penned the book of Isaiah to identify who the speaker was.
It does change something, that makes the speaker, not the Redeemer.Quote:
But that changes nothing because having identified the speaker, the same identification given in verse 12, you are left with the speaker being Jesus.
Of course, I don't expect you to change your mind. Since this is now irreconcilable, I decided switch the issue based on what you previously pointed out, but then, since my time is running out ( I am bound to leave on Sunday, the latest, and don't know when I'll be back again), I just decided to laid out my final statement to give me the opportunity to give my insight regarding this since you already laid your points. But in order for me to do that, I need to ask you several questions in order for me to assess if we are agreeing on different concepts. Will you allow me to ask you several questions for that purpose?
That is what scripture says - do you disagree?Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
Let's not play games here. I did not think that you were suggesting that what is clearly a commentary was being spoken -I thought that you were referring that was the introduction to. So no, I am changing, and I do not think that trying to trip someone up on word games is debating the issue honestly.Quote:
I even asked you to clear it to me TWICE and you said it is the speaker who said that phrase. (please refer to post #54 and #58). And now, you are saying it's the person who penned the book of Isaiah? Now, I am clueless about your stand.
That line does not make sense. It makes the speaker what?Quote:
It does change something, that makes the speaker, not the Redeemer.
That is the best way to debate an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
Truth does not depend upon my view. I have never found that playing "20 questions" gets us closer to what God is saying in his Word. What I have found is that if the person does not know the context of your questions (i.e. the point that you are leading to), the answer may be made against a different context, which may end up in further disclarity regarding the positions, and thus tends to lead to the same mis-understanding that we had above. If you have points to make, the best way is to make the point and provide your reasons for believing as you do.Quote:
But in order for me to do that, I need to ask you several questions in order for me to assess if we are agreeing on different concepts. Will you allow me to ask you several questions for that purpose?
Precisely. That specific phrase is from "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" is the word of the speaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Now, I am very confused with what your stand really is: First, you said that the speaker tells that phrase (#54 and #58)
When I told you the parallelism, you told me: "I never thought that you were suggesting that that the speaker was says "Thus says the lord". That is a description portion of the test written by the person who penned the book of Isaiah to identify who the speaker was."
Now that I said "Now, you're changing declaration. If I am not mistaken, you are the one who confirm that the one who said "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" is the speaker"
Now you're telling me "That is what scripture says - do you disagree?"
And now I am the one playing games? Sigh.
--NOT makes the speaker the Redeemer.Quote:
That line does not make sense. It makes the speaker what?
What's verse 12 has something to do with it. Verse 12 is another supporting verse to tell Jesus is the speaker; the one sent. It is not an issue if He is Jesus or not. The issue here is who said the phrase "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" Is it the speaker or is He not?Quote:
BTW, I notice that you keep pusing on this line while ignoring the context. I notice that you won't even acknowledge that verse 12 provide additional validation as to who the speaker is.
First, you said it's the speaker; Second, you said it's the person who penned the book of Isaiah; Now, you said it's speaker again. This is driving me insane.
My question was clear and I don't know why you don't get it while Fred does.
Perhaps, I will not continue to the questions and statement anymore. I fear that after I laid my final statement, I was gone then. I don't want you to think I let you hanging and don't want to be questioned about that post. I also fear you'll give me different answers for a question again. So I guess, it ends here.
Regards,
That makes no sense. Like I said before, I cannot comprehend how you can possibly come to such a conclusion. It would defy the context of the chapter and indeed of the chapter and surrounding chapters. I note that you continue to ignore the context, and specifically the fact that there are other passages which identify who the speaker is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
I mis-understood what you were saying as I said before - perhaps you did not read my last post. The logic that you are using is so out of line with what the passage says that I could not imagine anyone even making a suggesting as you are now making.Quote:
Now, I am very confused with what your stand really is: First, you said that the speaker tells that phrase (#54 and #58)
So, no I am not changing anything. Read what I said at the start of this thread and throughout. And this has now been clarified twice with you. This is why I also don't agree to playing "20 questions" with you or others who ask questions for the sake of twisting the answer to be something else. Are you planning to play wordgames and word tricks or do you want a honest discussion?
Same speaker speaking continuously and he identifies himself in verse 12 and verse 17 (and elsewhere).Quote:
What's verse 12 has something to do with it.
BTW, I notice that you keep pushing on this line while ignoring the context. I notice that you won't even acknowledge that verse 12 provide additional validation as to who the speaker is.
Let's look at the wider context that you keep avoiding:
Isa 48:9-11
9 "For My name's sake I will defer My anger,
And for My praise I will restrain it from you,
So that I do not cut you off.
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.
NKJV
Now I presume that it is clear to you who is speaking. If you understand what "profane" means, you will understand that the opposite of it is "holy". Whose name is "holy"? Who refines us?
Isa 48:12-13
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
NKJV
I should hope that it abundantly clear from verse 12 who is speaking. I would find it hard to believe that anyone could miss who it is, but if you don't know, we can do a study of who the first and the last is, and who laid the foundations of the earth.
Isa 48:14-15
14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
NKJV
Note here, as in verse 16, the speaker refers to the lord, and yet identifies Himself as God by the authority that He claims. And this is still the one and the same speaker.
Now the passage in question.
Isa 48:16
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."
NKJV
Note that it is still the same speaker who identified Himself as God throughout this chapter. Verse 17 is a more convenient way to see who it is, but there is so much more in Chapter 48 which makes His identity undeniable.
And verse 17 makes it abundantly clear who it is in case there are still those who could not see it in the prior verses.
Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV
Criado,
Now Tj3 is confusing me also.
Fred
Fred, you surprise me. I thought that you believed in the trinity. Maybe you listened to Ronnie too much :pQuote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tj3,
I do believe in the trinity.
But your last several posts on what you claim that passage says confuses me for it looks like you are going one way then another.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Then you need to read more carefully. I have said nothing different from the start. It was criado who mis-represented me.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Do you believe that the speaker is Jesus as the speaker claims?
Do you believe that it is God the Father and God that Holy Spirit that He says sent Him?
I have said nothing different from the start - check it out.
If you disagree with any of these statements, then I see why we have differences.
Tj3,
I have already told you what I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
As I told you, Fred. But your last comments have me wondering.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tj3,
It is Your posts that got me to wondering about you.
So we wonder about each other.
So be it.
LOL
Fred
Well Fred, as shown earlier in this thread, you make all sorts of accusations against me, so that does not bother me in the slightest. I, on the other hand, am trying to discuss doctrine and God's word.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Well Fred, as shown earlier in this thread, you make all sorts of false accusations against me and have for years, so that does not bother me in the slightest. I, on the other hand, am trying to discuss doctrine and God's word. So let's see if we can get back on track, shall we?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
So once again, let's look at the wider context of this passage:
Isa 48:9-11
9 "For My name's sake I will defer My anger,
And for My praise I will restrain it from you,
So that I do not cut you off.
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.
NKJV
Now I presume that it is clear to you who is speaking. If you understand what "profane" means, you will understand that the opposite of it is "holy". Whose name is "holy"? Who refines us? Does scripture say that this is anyone but God?
Isa 48:12-13
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
NKJV
I should hope that it abundantly clear from verse 12 who is speaking. I would find it hard to believe that anyone could miss who it is, but if you don't know, we can do a study of who the first and the last is, and who laid the foundations of the earth.
Isa 48:14-15
14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
NKJV
Note here, as in verse 16, the speaker refers to the Lord, and yet identifies Himself as God by the authority that He claims. And this is still the one and the same speaker.
Now the passage in question.
Isa 48:16
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."
NKJV
Note that it is still the same speaker who identified Himself as God throughout this chapter. Verse 17 is a more convenient way to see who it is, but there is so much more in Chapter 48 which makes His identity undeniable.
And verse 17 makes it abundantly clear who it is in case there are still those who could not see it in the prior verses.
Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV
Here the speaker says that He is the Redeemer and we know who that is.
Do you agree or not? If not, please provide validation from scripture for your position, rather than personal attacks.
Tj3,
I made no accusations against you.
I asked a question that you never answered.
But that's OK.
I let it go.
I still pray for you.
Peace and kindness, Fred
Your memory is getting worse, Fred. You made false accusations even in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
So you claim. Talking about questions that you won't answer, how about an answer to the question that I asked?Quote:
I asked a question that you never answered.
So once again, let's look at the wider context of this passage:
Isa 48:9-11
9 "For My name's sake I will defer My anger,
And for My praise I will restrain it from you,
So that I do not cut you off.
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.
NKJV
Now I presume that it is clear to you who is speaking. If you understand what "profane" means, you will understand that the opposite of it is "holy". Whose name is "holy"? Who refines us? Does scripture say that this is anyone but God?
Isa 48:12-13
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
NKJV
I should hope that it abundantly clear from verse 12 who is speaking. I would find it hard to believe that anyone could miss who it is, but if you don't know, we can do a study of who the first and the last is, and who laid the foundations of the earth.
Isa 48:14-15
14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
NKJV
Note here, as in verse 16, the speaker refers to the Lord, and yet identifies Himself as God by the authority that He claims. And this is still the one and the same speaker.
Now the passage in question.
Isa 48:16
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."
NKJV
Note that it is still the same speaker who identified Himself as God throughout this chapter. Verse 17 is a more convenient way to see who it is, but there is so much more in Chapter 48 which makes His identity undeniable.
And verse 17 makes it abundantly clear who it is in case there are still those who could not see it in the prior verses.
Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV
Here the speaker says that He is the Redeemer and we know who that is.
Do you agree or not? If not, please provide validation from scripture for your position, rather than personal attacks.
Tj3,
I do agree.
As I said before I have already told you what I believe.
And that has been several times on several different boards.
Here it is again in a nutshell called the Apostles' Creed.
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord.
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
He ascended into heaven,
He is seated at the right hand of the Father,
And he will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
The holy catholic church,
The communion of saints,
The forgiveness of sins,
The resurrection of the body,
And the life everlasting.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I am glad to see that you have finally clearly stated your view. That helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:54 AM. |