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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Yes I breathe, yes I see, where's your proof that God made that possible? The bible? That's not proof, it's a man written book, not a God written book.

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So far I have not used the Bible as proof of God. You keep bringing up a strawman.

If you breathe and see, can you tell me how those capabilities came to be?

Which scientific explanation do you believe?

No, I'm not a scientist.

If you claim that God gave us these gifts, then where is your proof?

I'm not saying that God didn't help create everything, I'm simply saying that there is too much scientific proof that God didn't create it all single handedly.

Like I said before, I think he may have helped science along, but did he do it alone? I don't think so. I don't have any proof, that's just what I believe.

I do believe in God. I also believe in science. Science I have proof of, God, I do not.

So tell me, should I believe in something no one can prove? I do, but I will be the first to admit that it is only belief, not fact.

If you have actual proof of Gods existence, then why are we still having this conversation? Just show me your proof. I don't have any, but obviously you think you do.

I'd love to see it.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

No, I'm not a scientist.

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I have a degree in science and I have examined the evidence, both the evidence regarding evolution and the evidence for the Bible.

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If you claim that God gave us these gifts, then where is your proof?

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Let's go through the questions at hand first, and I am sure that all will become clear in due course.

John claims scientific background, but he never got any farther than you have in providing OSE for evolution.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Therefore, a book written by human beings, although possibly written about actual events, will not have the whole truth in it. That's just the way human beings are, fallible, not perfect. Therefore, the bible, in my opinion, is not accurate, as it was written by man.

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I don't think "accurate" is the right word. You are on one corner of an intersection. I am on the corner diametrically opposed. Two cars crash. The police come and interview you and me as witnesses. Is your account of the accident inaccurate? No, it's not. It is accurate according to what you saw. Is my account of the accident inaccurate? No, it's not. It is accurate according to what I saw. Does your account match mine, and mine match yours? No. You and I saw the accident from two different vantage points. Neither is wrong, but neither tells the whole story of the accident.

I did marital counseling for several years. I got one version of the marital relationship from the husband, and a different one from the wife. Neither was wrong; neither was 100% right. Each was telling about the relationship from his own point of view based on his own experiences and interpretation of those experiences. The wife reported as accurately as possible as she saw it, and the husband reported as accurately as possible as he saw it, but the real truth lay somewhere in the middle. Thankfully, my job wasn't to find out the real truth, but to help the couple listen to each other and find a way to compromise.

The Bible isn't inaccurate because humans are fallible and imperfect, but because each writer experienced an event from one perspective. That's why it's so important to read and examine and even question the point of view of a writer to figure out on which "corner" he was standing when an event occurred. That's why some Christians here say that the Bible supports itself. They look at all the writers and their points of view to figure out what the truth of the Bible is.

Altenweg,
I believe in some forms of evolution that science had proven, but not some of the theory about no God.
I also believe in God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Altenweg,
I believe in some forms of evolution that science had proven, but not some of the theory about no God.

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What evidence is there for evolution, Fred?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I have a degree in science and I have examined the evidence, both the evidence regarding evolution and the evidence for the Bible.



Let's go through the questions at hand first, and I am sure that all will become clear in due course.

John claims scientific background, but he never got any farther than you have in providing OSE for evolution.

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There's more proof of evolution then there is God.

Like I said, I'm not a scientist, heck, science is my absolute worst subject. Don't ask me to provide OSE for evolution, I wouldn't know where to begin. That will be up to someone else to prove,not me.

I don't need proof of God, I believe without it. But you are claiming to have proof, so why won't you provide it?

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

There's more proof of evolution then there is God.

Like I said, I'm not a scientist, heck, science is my absolute worst subject. Don't ask me to provide OSE for evolution, I wouldn't know where to begin. That will be up to someone else to prove,not me.

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If you or anyone else is going to make a claim that there is any proof for evolution, then it is important to have investigated what evidence there is, otherwise evolution is in fact a faith and a religion - because your belief that there is proof is taken on faith that it exists.

You see, I used to believe in evolution. I defended evolution time and time again, and I wanted to strengthen my defense of evolution so I took the time to get into the evidence that existed for evolution in order to prove that evolution was scientifically based, and that the Genesis account was just a story. What I found shocked me. I found that the evidence showed the exact opposite.

I even tried to back off to what is called theistic evolution to try to deal with the problems that I found, but that was even less compelling, so I found that if I was to be honest to the facts at hand, I had to accept that the Biblical account was true, not just because of my faith in the one true God, but also because the scientific evidence in favour of the Genesis account was so compelling.

I wonder if you are aware that an increasing number of secular scientists are abandoning evolution and coming up with alternate theories simply because the problems with the theory of evolution make evolution unpallatable.

You say that you do not understand science. Science is the study of God's creation. The evidence for God is all around us, but the strongest evidence is in science. That is why I am trying to get in the scientific evidence.

Tj3,
We have been over that about my belief in evolution several times on other broads.
I'll NOT go over it again with you because you refuse to accept why I believe as I do.
You believe as you wish, so does cred and Alemweg.
I believe as I wish.
Accept it or not, that is your choice.
You are NOT going to change what we believe so why bother trying to do so continually?
Fred
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
We have been over that about my belief in evolution several times on other broads.

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Fred,

You have never provided any evidence for your believe in evolution. That is why I asked.

I have no problem with you believing as you wish. I do think that it is interesting that you describe evolution as your "belief" because that is what it is, a faith, a belief.

Well then, I guess that's what I believe. Evolution and the existence of God. I told you, I'm an anomaly. ;)

I cannot start studying evolution now, science is beyond my capabilites, sad to admit, but true. I have to rely on scientists to do the research and studying for me, and hope that what they find is accurate.

Fred, so true. We all have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

I am more than willing to hear of any evidence, be it scientific or spiritual. But in order to convince me that the bible is accurate, I will need proof. You see, the bible is something I have researched, and I cannot accept that it is the "word of God".

Peace.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Fred,

You have never provided any evidence for your believe in evolution. That is why I asked.

I have no problem with you believing as you wish. I do think that it is interesting that you describe evolution as your "belief" because that is what it is, a faith, a belief.

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Tj3, so is God. :)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Tj3, so is God. :)

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Yes it is, but it is not a blind faith.

It is also important to note that evolutionists claim evolution is a science, but yet when it comes down to it, we see that it is something which is believed through faith. Evolution is in fact a religious belief.

Tj3,
As I said. NO!
I will not go over that again with you.
I have told you WHY I believe in the forms of evolution I do believe in several times.
QUIT saying that I have not for I most certainly HAVE DONE SO.
Fred

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Well then, I guess that's what I believe. Evolution and the existence of God. I told you, I'm an anomaly. ;)

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I once believed that also, but when I examined the facts, including the scientific evidence, I was force to accept what the evidence showed and to abandon evolution completely.

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I cannot start studying evolution now, science is beyond my capabilites, sad to admit, but true. I have to rely on scientists to do the research and studying for me, and hope that what they find is accurate.

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Which scientists? This is the point. Scientists are of various opinions, and even those who believe in evolution will tell you, if they are honest, that the belief in evolution is based upon mounds of assumptions.

The facts behind evolution are not so difficult that a layman cannot understand. What you need to do is to look at the claims of evolution, and ask questions. Ask what evidence there is to validate that. Ask about the assumptions, and the holes in the evidence, and see where that leads. That is a good starting point. There are also excellent scientific books available. One written by a leading scientist in the field, Michael Behe is called "The Edge of Evolution". This is entirely a science book, but written so that a layman can understand it.

Fred, so true. We all have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

I am more than willing to hear of any evidence, be it scientific or spiritual. But in order to convince me that the bible is accurate, I will need proof. You see, the bible is something I have researched, and I cannot accept that it is the "word of God".

Peace.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
As I said. NO!
I will not go over that again with you.
I have told you WHY I believe in the forms of evolution I do believe in several times.
QUIT saying that I have not for I most certainly HAVE DONE SO.
Fred

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No Fred, you have no never given any evidence for your belief in evolution. All you have given is the refusal such as you are doing now. But if you cannot or will not validate your belief, that is fine. You are certainly welcome to have faith in whatever you wish to place your faith.

This is Freds thread and I think we should respect his request and no longer discuss evolution, we have once again strayed from the topic.

There are other threads that would be better suited for this type of discussion. I'd be glad to hear your arguments there. :)

I apologize Fred.

Peace.

Tj3,
I see you have gone back to you old habit of making false accusations about what I have or have not done.
I'll not respond any more to you because of that.

Fred

Nothing has changed with Tj3 but his handle, and his use of his engineering degree as a "science degree" (if that were true, I have 2 such "science degrees" !

Once more I like to go back to the topic, that is about "Christian integrity".

I wonder : many Christians here seem to be rather intolerant to deviating views.
However : I also note aggressive creationists who post about a 6000 year old universe, and who insist that "God" is the "Creator", and who attack every opposing view with creationist - unsupported - babble that claims to be scientific, but that is anything but scientific.

Very few Christians here dare to admit that as far as they are concerned they accept science and scientific findings (like evolution) as reality.

Just a very small group of religious fanatics "color" this religious discussion board with their creationists views. However these same fanatics seem to lack one of the basics of Christianity : love and forgiveness.

Now : how is that for "Christian integrity"??

:rolleyes:

.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I see you have gone back to you old habit of making false accusations about what I have or have not done.
I'll not respond any more to you because of that.

Fred

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Fred,

You responses on here prove what I said.