So the development of an extremely complex nucleus and nuclear pore complex:
1] developed by mutation? What scientific proof is there of this?
2] what selective pressure was there for a nucleus to be an advantage?
3] How does having a nucleus get a cell more resources? What particular resources?
4] Why are some humans outraged about chimp experiments - especially if it is to our
Advantage in studying diseases?
5] If we are all competing for the same limited resources in order to make sure our genes are passed on, why have social programs like unemployment, welfare, medicaid, disability? After all, survival of the fittest right?
- Or is this religion that teaches us to care.
6] Why do humans still pass along mutations, not "beneficial," like

Harvard Medical School Center for Hereditary Deafness

Cystic fibrosis, huntinton's, sickle cell, hemochromatosis etc.

One only has to Google oncogene mutation herditary to see the scope of mutaions and how harmful they are - and this is the primary mechanism of evolution?

One guy


Evolution is taught as fact when it is not. _ see #5

Why do evolutionist fear intelligent design?

Why not let children know they are especially created, God gives them a purpose, God loves them - is that so bad?

Evolution is taught as fact when it is not. _ see #5
It's taught as science, there's a difference.

Why do evolutionist fear intelligent design?
No fear but teach it in the religion class not the science class.

Why not let children know they are especially created, God gives them a purpose, God loves them - is that so bad?
Children are created by sex between a man and a woman. People give themselves their own purpose.

Inthebox, for the lattert half of your question, humans have, in some limited ways, broken free from evolution through their intelligence. Medicine has meant that people with defective genes don't always die like they would in the wild.

Mutations can go both ways, by definition.

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Evolution is taught as fact when it is not. _ see #5

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Evolution is as much a fact as the attraction of 2 objects with mass, but I don't see you shouting heresy about that.

We can't just say a god did it and still preform science. Once we start saying god did it we have to stop. In that case we would have stopped along time ago. Why cure diseases could we not say they are the work of a god and stop right there.

But to answer your question the article you quote, your taking it to literal there wasn't nothing there was almost nothing. There never was nothing there has always been something we just aren't sure what yet. If your really interested in learning you should check out modern books on string and demential theory. If you really believe in god you should encourage this research because if your theory is correct and science proves god did it, it would prove god.

In the box, you apparently accept mutatations as a fact. I fail to see why you seem to believe that all mutations are detrimental. Many yes, but it only takes one success to improve the species in a positive way and provide some benefit that changes all who follow. Naturally, the negatives do not mean instant death, especially when there are ways to overcome.

As for my education on evolution, it was not presented as fact in a classroom with Catholics, Apostolics, Baptists, Mennonites, Non Believers, etc.

It was clearly stated as a theory. I was allowed to form my own opinion based on what I saw. I have studied mutations and genetics from Mendel's pea experiments... etc... I have personally worked with genetic researchers in Corn... as well as some work with environmental factors that creat mutations in mammals that are passed on to the offspring.

I've seen it and experienced it first hand. Sorry, but I'm still waiting to see any one walk on water.

All of what I am saying does not mean that I do not feel that there are higher powers or laws to govern things than what we as people are able to understand.

It might be interesting to note that even religions seem to be involved in evolution. Through such practices as raising the perfect sheep to offer as a sacrifice, shepherds were promoting positive changes in their flocks.

Look at how the dog species has changed in the last 200 years... that evolution through selective breeding has produced extreme changes in a relatively short time.

No one is saying that your great grand parents were chimps. Instead, the idea is that there is a common link between the two species. For further proof that species change over time, consider the difference between European peoples and the Aboriginees of Australia. At one time, not all that long ago, differences in races caused some groups of people not to be accepted as humans.

If you are saying that all man came from Adam, how do you justify the past belief that these different races of people exhist but can't be human? And if you accept their existence as human, how can you exclude the possibility that humans can change drastically over time into beings that do not seem to resemble their original forms?

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Originally Posted by inthebox

One guy


Evolution is taught as fact when it is not. _ see #5

Why do evolutionist fear intelligent design?

Why not let children know they are especially created, God gives them a purpose, God loves them - is that so bad?

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How about because I don't believe in your god, and don't want it forced on my children?

I was thinking that religions wanted separation of church and state, as long as the religious community gets to do what ever it wants... got to watch those double edged swords!

Attributing humans using intelligence to manipulate facts to make medicine, new technology is NOT evolution. Human choice to manipulate experiments is not evolution. Is it? Is selective dog breeding evolution? {This is human intelligence}
If so who or what forces selected humans to be "breeded" from a common primate ancestor?


Using God given "talents" is Biblical - aka the parable of the talents. I have never stated that God and science or mutually exclusive.

Science observes documents God's glory - from my point of view.


If evolution is a "fact" how come no one can answer the questions on post #61?

What scientific proof is there of creationism? Or of intelligent design?

What PROOF do you have of God?

Let me warn you--it has to be really good for me to believe it. It can't be based on the Bible (written by men). It can't be observations about nature (physics and gravity and spectrums of light and biology is NOT proof of god). It can't be the birth of a child (again, that's biology). It can't be a "miracle" like someone coming out of a coma after seeing a bright light and seeing their great-gramma and Aunt Susie--that's not proof of God. I don't know WHAT that's proof of, but you can't honestly attribute it to God.

So... what proof is there that GOD exists? What scientific evidence proves God?

And--if a God DOES exist---what proof do you have that it's YOUR god? Couldn't it be MY god that you're attributing whatever proof to? Or the FSM?

I agree with what's stated above. I don't have a problem with intelligent design being taught---in an elective class. NOT in Science classes.

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Originally Posted by inthebox

? Is selective dog breeding evolution? {This is human intelligence}
If so who or what forces selected humans to be "breeded" from a common primate ancestor?

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The forces that selected the humans included such things that go along with survival of the fittest. I used the example of dog breeding, because in that case the force that made the determination is the human choice... For the predicessors of man, the force was nature and natural selection. And choice may have also played a part... as in the various forms could have found others like themselves more appealing... either through mental desires or affiliations within a group.

I will now go back to post #61 and offer my thoughts

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Originally Posted by inthebox

So the development of an extremely complex nucleus and nuclear pore complex:
1] developed by mutation? what scientific proof is there of this?
2] what selective pressure was there for a nucleus to be an advantage?
3] How does having a nucleus get a cell more resources? What particular resources?
4] Why are some humans outraged about chimp experiments - especially if it is to our
advantage in studying diseases?
5] If we are all competing for the same limited resources in order to make sure our genes are passed on, why have social programs like unemployment, welfare, medicaid, disability? Afterall, survival of the fittest right?
- Or is this religion that teaches us to care.
6] Why do humans still pass along mutations, not "beneficial," like

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The proof would be in the existence of the process of sexual reproduction as opposed to asexual methods. The very process allows for greater diversity and adaptation. It can be seen in organisms such as viruses that adapt to overcome threats. If you assume that sexual reproduction was always present, then where did the need for asexual means originate?

Consider bacteria without a nucleus, but instead they have a nuclioid or cluster of DNA. The movement of such organisms revolves around some external factor such as water current... a higher single celled organism with a nucleus such as an Amoeba has a means of movent on it's own power through a pseudopod. What advantage does that give in seeking resources? Power to move toward desired location. What makes a nucleus responsible for these changes? An organizational benefit that occurred at the same time as the higher form was developing. It does not mean that one was directly responsible for the other. It does indicate that the development of such structures was for the benefit of the cells through such purposes as providing more protection or structure to the cell. As the cells were successful with the nucleus, it promoted higher development within the nuclues. If it was not successful, the organism would have died out.
People have free will to choose what outrages them. The fact that something is of potential benefit has nothing to do with it. Some people get upset that they can't smoke in certain places despite the obvious health risk. Organisms do not need to consciously decide what or how evolution will affect them. As for the social programs, many people do argue their detriment to the human race. Religion might promote the concept of caring, or you might find that such caring stems from animal type behavior... look at the instinct to protect the young of many animal species... why do they care to protect a competitor? To ensure survival of the species? Or would you believe that a wolf, bear, or lioness protects her young because of religious convictions?

I read through most of the post and just wanted to contribute some of my views and beleifs. Just to share them, not asking you to adopt them and defintely not saying my view is THE view :).

First, I think someone mentioned here if God is eternal, why are we all not eternal? But you see we are. This life is only temporary as we all know that to be a fact, and it is my belief that we are born to eternal life. Meaning, when we pass this life, our souls are joined with God in eternal life.

Proof there is a God? Oh my. That's a tough one. We can obtain proof in probably every aspect of life. Tangible proof. Proof we can touch, feel and see. This is one area that is different. As it takes faith. Blessed are those who believe without seeing. (Sorry, didn't mean to quote). I have been taught, (whether it's correct or not), that each of us will have the opportunity of being "introduced" to the knowledge that there is indeed a God, and will be given a chance to accept and embrace His love or turn away and not believe.

All of you are so bright with your questions and so inquisitive and rightly so. I meant that sincerely, all of you being so bright and intelligent, it comes through in your post, so yes, it must be difficult for you to accept something, that does not have an equation, does not have a tangible beginning, middle and end. Is not something you can see, fully understand, or rationalize. In my heart, I do understand. I smile at some of your questions, as they are excellent and remind me in some ways of very inquisitive children.

What I mean by that is you will continue to ask questions until you get to the bottom of it. And if it takes 40 questions and 40 "Whys", then so be it. And I say, good for you. To want to know, to want to learn and to want to understand.

I wish I could say, here, here is the answer. See, here, right here is God. But I can't provide that visual for you.

Do you remember as children, we would ask our parents, Why? Why does the sun shine? How many stars are in the Sky. Where did my little sister come from? And all the wonderful questions we placed at our parents feet. And bless their souls they answered us, as best they could. Some of the answers, they couldn't provide proof for, but in our little hearts, we knew they loved us and we believed. Some things were very hard to understand and most times, we probably didn't.

I think that is how I equate all of our wonderment. The answers can't be shown, at this time, can't be fully understood but may we all be blessed with faith to help us accept (if that is our choice)

I share all of this with you, not to say I am right, or what I have said is right. I guess I mostly share, that for me, there is no way I could survive this world without having faith in the love of God. I have made so many mistakes, made poor choices so I am not even close to perfect and so far removed from it.

To me, sometimes, life can be a challenge. Hurt feelings, loss of loved ones, loss of things we love, misunderstandings and all the more difficult things in life we all face. For me,
it is God's love and merciful forgiveness that helps lift me up again. So many times I forget and get lost and caught up in this thing called life. And that is when I find I struggle the most. But when I remember to turn to Him, I somehow find myself in a place of peace and understanding.

I want you all to also know, that I believe in God and turn to Him, not because I am a good person, it's because I want to be a good and better person.

Okay, Allheart sermon over. I promise all of you, I only share what is in my heart and what get's me through, yes, in hopes that maybe it will help you see things in a different light and perhaps help you through a difficult time but never to force you to accpet my view as yours.

Would a wolf feed the offspring of a rival pack when the biological mother was around or a lioness feed the young of a female from another pride?

Protecting your own descendants is a given, but attributing alturism as a trait that humans mimicked from lower life forms?

Okay - I remember watching mutual of omaha shows - A pride of lions are hunting wildebeest and invariably they get one that is old or young or unhealthy. Have you ever seen a healthy wildebeest that got away, turn around, and rescue the hapless wildebeest
As one or more lions are tearing into it?

Rival packs are in competition with each other so I wouldn't think the caring would extend beyond the positive affiliation of the animals.

Who is saying that the humans (higher life forms) are mimicking the behavior as they extend outside of their affiliated groups... Instead, it would be an extension of the internal programming as a method of promoting life for the species. As the higher cognitive processes developed, so to do the concepts of charity, compassion, and goodwill... as well as greed, hate, and criminal intent.

It's not hard to picture ancient mammals figuring out that if I help you, you might help me in the future. Such practice would be beneficial for survival. That does not mean that all mammals will follow that practice. Not even all people demonstrate a desire to do so.

There are reported cases of animals helping other species for unknown reasons. Look at examples of animals who provided care for human children lost in the wilderness. That does happen. Many species have formed mutual benefit relationships with other species.

The development of greater caring capacities would be beneficial in allowing higher life forms to form relationships with other species for mutual benefits. This can clearly be seen with the domestication of wild animals for food or service purposes. Caring for those animals kept them healthy longer and thereby increased survival for both species.

I posted this in another thread, but some of you are not there, and it fits this thread maybe even better than the other one.

When all mention of God is removed from the student's education, then the foundation of our culture is taken away. Several of you have let it be known in no uncertain terms that you consider the Bible irrelevant, but read on. The Bible speaks to biology, anthropology, physics, and geology.

It also addresses the subject of public sanitation. There are still countries that could have much healthier populations if they would practice what the Bible prescribes on that subject.

Biology: When did scientists determine that the human body is composed of the very same elements that are found in dirt? How did Moses know that 4,000 years ago?
Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
(KJV)
Anthropology: Science now knows that all humans are related by blood. Dr. Luke told us that 2,000 years ago.
Acts 17:26
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
(KJV)
Physics: How lately have scientists discovered that apparently solid materials are not really solid, but are made up of atoms, with all their sub-atomic parts? Once again, the Bible beat them to it.
Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
(KJV
Geology: The Bible tells us when the Earth's land mass was divided (I assume excluding Australia and Antarctica)
Gen 10:25
25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan.
(KJV)
Definition of the name “Peleg”
6389 Peleg (peh'-leg);
The same as 6388; earthquake; Peleg, a son of Shem:
KJV-- Peleg.
You will respond by saying that the continental drift is too slow for this time frame, but how can you prove that the rate of drift has not slowed dramatically in 4,000 years?

You should stop saying that intelligent design has no place in the science classroom.

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Originally Posted by oneguyinohio

I was thinking that religions wanted separation of church and state, as long as the religious community gets to do what ever it wants... gotta watch those double edged swords!

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I believe if you go back and read that again you will find that all the prohibitions are against the state, not the Church! Like so much of the Constitution, this has been twisted by activist judges who consider the Constitution a "living document" subject to their whim.

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

Both us an modern apes evolved from a single ape-like ancestor. The animal that was left behind died out long ago. We are different twigs on the same branch.

The mutation of genes is random, of course. But the selective pressure that competition for resources provides means that only beneficial mutations are passed on. This is very ordered - a generational selection process of the animals best mutated to take advantage of a resource. There is no intent behind it, it's just a very complex phenomenon arising from a very simple process - similar organisms fighting for the same resources.

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Really? Then why do we have fossil records of primates BEFORE the assumed link, and fossil records of man AFTER the assumed link but no link? If we accept the assumption of the evolutionist theory, there would have to have been links for how long? A million years? More? Less? We have fossils before and after, but no complete fossils between. There should be millions of them. Sorry, no cigar!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separat...urch_and_state

... reflected in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, originally authored by Thomas Jefferson, but championed by Madison, and guaranteeing that no one may be compelled to finance any religion or denomination.

... no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

Since the public is compelled to finance publc education, the above clearly states the founders opinions on the matter.