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Originally Posted by jillianleab

The things you mention aren't attacking Christianity, they are enforcing equality.

Christmas - assuming you mean the "Happy Holidays" "Merry Christmas" thing, why is it unreasonable to want a greeting that is inclusive instead of exclusive? Remember, "Merry Christmas" only applies to Christians, why should everyone else be excluded?

Voluntary public prayers - I'll give you this, an atheist who attacks someone's right to pray is simply a bad person in my book. But it sort of depends on what you mean by "voluntary". If you mean a time in public school where students are led in Christian prayer and non-Christians are expected to sit quietly, that's a violation of the Constitution. Christians may pray to themselves in school whenever they want; they cannot, however, be led in prayer BY the school. Again, it's an inclusive/exclusive thing.

Under God/In God we Trust - A lot of people don't know this phrase was added to our pledge in 1954, so it doesn't hold the historical significance some think it does. Again, it can be seen as a constitutional violation. "In God we Trust" wasn't present on all money until 1957, and holds the same constitutional violation as "Under God". Contrary to popular opinion/belief, this is NOT a Christian nation, merely a nation which is dominated by Christians.

So if you see those things as an "attack" on Christian values instead of a battle for equal treatment and application of the Constitution, then certainly you are entitled to that opinion. But fighting for those things doesn't imply a belief in a god, so there is great reason why an atheist or non-Christian should care.

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In paragraqh 3 you mention violation of the contitution. The meaning of the separation of Church and State has been really twisted in the past several years. If you will read that clause again, I believe that you will see that the prohibitions are all against the State, not the Church. The State can neither endorse, nor prohibit, religion, and nearly all of the men who established this nation were Christians according to their own testimonies. They failed to confirm the Constitution until after public prayer was offered to God about the matter. They did not establish an Atheist nation, an Anti-God nation, but they established a NON-SECTARIAN nation, which is a significant distinction.

Really, why does it bother you to be present when others are praying, or when someone wishes you "Merry Christmas", or why would you bring a lawsuit to prevent the display of a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn? Why do you hate the display of the Ten Commandments? Our world would be a much better place if more people followed them. Quit complaining and put up your own display, if you can think of something appropriate. Face it. My belief offends you, and you want me to disappear from sight so you won't be bothered. If I'm wrong about that, convince me differently.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Really, why does it bother you to be present when others are praying, or when someone wishes you "Merry Christmas", or why would you bring a lawsuit to prevent the display of a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn? Why do you hate the display of the Ten Commandments? Our world would be a much better place if more people followed them. Quit complaining and put up your own display, if you can think of something appropriate. Face it. My belief offends you, and you want me to disappear from sight so you won't be bothered. If I'm wrong about that, convince me differently.

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Hello again, Gal:

Looks to me like the only one attacking anybody here is you.

You won't be convinced. You're not interested in rational discussion. You misquote. You mischaracterize. You don't understand your own country. You make up stuff. You foment hate.

Actually, I think the world would be better off WITHOUT people like you. If I'm wrong about that, convince me differently.

You ARE perfect for this discussion, however. Thanks for stopping by.

excon

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

In paragraqh 3 you mention violation of the contitution. The meaning of the separation of Church and State has been really twisted in the past several years. If you will read that clause again, I believe that you will see that the prohibitions are all against the State, not the Church. The State can neither endorse, nor prohibit, religion, and nearly all of the men who established this nation were Christians according to their own testimonies. They failed to confirm the Constitution until after public prayer was offered to God about the matter. They did not establish an Atheist nation, an Anti-God nation, but they established a NON-SECTARIAN nation, which is a significant distinction.

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Thank you, but I know very well what the separation of Church and State means; and a PUBLIC SCHOOL leading students in CHRISTIAN PRAYER violates it. Students in a public school are welcome to pray (and they do) but they cannot be LED in prayer by the school. And most of the authors of the Constitution were deists, but whatever.

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Really, why does it bother you to be present when others are praying, or when someone wishes you "Merry Christmas", or why would you bring a lawsuit to prevent the display of a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn? Why do you hate the display of the Ten Commandments? Our world would be a much better place if more people followed them.

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Not that I said any of those things bother me, but I'll play along. It doesn't bother me when people pray in my presence, it bothers me if a public school endorses a certain religion. It also doesn't bother me if someone says "Merry Christmas", it bothers be that (some) Christians think their holiday is the only one celebrated during that time of year, therefore EVERYONE should say "Merry Christmas". The display of the nativity on the courthouse lawn, as long as it was not put up BY the courthouse and as long as all other religions can display in a similar fashion doesn't bother me at all. It's when a nativity gets put up and NO ONE else can display that I get peeved. The display of the Ten Commandments is the same thing; in a government building, it indicates and endorsement of a particular religion. The goal is for secular governmental buildings; how can one be secular if the Ten Commandments is present?

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Quit complaining and put up your own display, if you can think of something appropriate. Face it. My belief offends you, and you want me to disappear from sight so you won't be bothered. If I'm wrong about that, convince me differently.

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Now you're just being rude and making things up. Your belief certainly does not offend me, not at all. Your sense of entitlement because of your religion offends me. Convinced yet? Probably not.

You're putting words in my mouth. Very unsanitary! I never wrote supporting teacher led prayers. Not guilty! Prayers led for someone else are a total waste of time anyway. As to the Ten Commandments, if you will notice, they appear on the front of the US Supreme Court building, and have been there for a long time. To say that the founders of this country were Deists can be disproved by an honest study of history. So, how am I spreading hate? Now my feelings are hurt!

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Why do you hate the display of the Ten Commandments? Now my feelings are hurt!

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Hello again, Gal:

Buck yourself up, and thicken your skin. We play hardball around here. How do you spread hate? Well first off, you accuse people of it. And, that you did. I read it right there. Looks like fomentation to me. Nobody said that word before you did. It's a false accusation, too. Oh, I'll bet that's exactly how your pastor put it, but he's WRONG, just like you.

I don't hate the Ten Commandments. Who could hate them? But, they're religious. That's just so. They don't belong in a public building. Why?? Because there might be some of the public who DOES hate the Ten Commandments. Those commandments might not be part of THEIR religion, and they own the "public" space equally with you. Therefore, it would be fair and just and very American to treat them the same. However, it would be impossible for every religion to be represented in the public square. So we've determined that it's better that NO religion be represented in the public square.

Isn't that a better idea?? Or would you rather have YOUR religion represented but NOT others?? That's not very American of you now, is it?

excon

^^
Well explained excon.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

You're putting words in my mouth. Very unsanitary! I never wrote supporting teacher led prayers. Not guilty! Prayers led for someone else are a total waste of time anyway. As to the Ten Commandments, if you will notice, they appear on the front of the US Supreme Court building, and have been there for a long time. To say that the founders of this country were Deists can be disproved by an honest study of history. So, how am I spreading hate? Now my feelings are hurt!

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Apparently you've never heard of this thing called an "example", which is what my reference to prayer in schools was. Please see my sig. Then see excon's post.

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Originally Posted by excon

It's like pregnant. You either are, or you aren't.

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Sorry, and I know this is off topic, but nobody who had ever been pregnant would say this! Nine months is "very" pregnant. One week isn't. :)

Atheism is a Belief or a Faith because no atheist can scientifically prove that there is no god/creator

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Originally Posted by fancyT

Athiesm is a Belief or a Faith because no athiest can scientifically prove that there is no god/creator

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One does not need to prove a negative.
Negative proof - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
See alos: Russell's teapot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

Simply put, they don't exist.



excon

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wow man you're so atheist you don't even believe in atheist organizations existing. That's totally metal man! I like that...

I agree that most atheist organizations, like almost all other types of organizations, are political front groups. And most self proclaimed atheists are really agnostic. I myself am agnostic, with more leanings to atheism. The only reason I don't call myself an atheist, even though my "religion" is logic and science, is that Albert Einstein believed in god, and he was the greatest physicist of all time. Since he's smarter than me I respect his opinion. If he believed in something, who knows what the possibilities are. I am MORE compelled to believe that a reptilian Annunaki race from the planet Nibiru bio-engineered the human race, than to believe one word in the bible.

to get back to your topic, the church of Satan is probably the closest thing to a true atheist organization, seeing as how they donut believe in Satan actually, they are just anti Christian values, and use the name of Satan to incite the christians

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Originally Posted by interinfinity

to get back to your topic, the church of Satan is probably the closest thing to a true atheist organization, seeing as how they donut believe in Satan actually, they are just anti Christian values, and use the name of Satan to incite the christians

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To me that fails the atheist test: atheists aren't really anti-anything, we just run our lives without any deity whatsover. I don't give a thought to worshipping anything... ever.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

To me that fails the atheist test: atheists aren't really anti-anything, we just run our lives without any deity whatsover. I don't give a thought to worshipping anything...ever.

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Very very good point. Lets just say that the church of satan is a bunch of schizophrenic athiests:)

Hehe. Lost souls indeed.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

To me that fails the atheist test: atheists aren't really anti-anything, we just run our lives without any deity whatsover. I don't give a thought to worshipping anything...ever.

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I usually avoid the topic since it seems to upset so many people, but when it comes up, I generally point out that the "a" in "a-theist" means "without God" not "against God." I don't want to tell others what to believe. Live and let live. I've always thought that the idea of an organization of atheists was odd, like an organization of people who don't play basketball. What would be the point?

Most of you say you are not religious, but that just isn't so. Let's look at the earmarks of religion and then compare yours with mine. Would that be fair? Every religion has certain basic requirements: 1, a deity; 2, writings expaining that deity; 3, some form of spreading that religion (recruitment, eduation, etc.) DEITY: Mine: Jehovah/Jesus - Yours: Self WRITINGS EXPAINING THAT DEITY: Mine: The Bible Yours: The works of Charles Darwin FORM OF SPREADING RELIGION: Mine: Various ministries of the Church - Yours: The public classroom, where only Darwin's ideas are allowed. Face it. Your reaction to my posts is the same as any religious fanatic when his cherished values are challenged.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Most of you say you are not religious, but that just isn't so. Let's look at the earmarks of religion and then compare yours with mine. Would that be fair? Every religion has certain basic requirements: 1, a deity; 2, writings expaining that deity; 3, some form of spreading that religion (recruitment, eduation, etc.) DEITY: Mine: Jehovah/Jesus - Yours: Self WRITINGS EXPAINING THAT DEITY: Mine: The Bible Yours: The works of Charles Darwin FORM OF SPREADING RELIGION: Mine: Various ministries of the Church - Yours: The public classroom, where only Darwin's ideas are allowed. Face it. Your reaction to my posts is the same as any religious fanatic when his cherished values are challenged.

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That's weird, I don't view any of what you've written as correct. But if it makes you happy to believe it then let it be.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

Most of you say you are not religious, but that just isn't so. Every religion has certain basic requirements: 1, a deity; 2, writings expaining that deity; 3, some form of spreading that religion (recruitment, eduation, etc.)
DEITY: Mine: Jehovah/Jesus Yours: Self
WRITINGS EXPAINING THAT DEITY: Mine: The Bible Yours: The works of Charles Darwin
FORM OF SPREADING RELIGION: Mine: Various ministries of the Church - Yours: The public classroom, where only Darwin's ideas are allowed. Face it. Your reaction to my posts is the same as any religious fanatic when his cherished values are challenged.

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Would it be fair? No. :)
1. I'm not a deity; 2. I don't have any writings that explain my deitiness to anyone; and 3. I don't have any means of spreading an alleged religion about my alleged deity self. Generally speaking, people who claim to be deities get locked up... I certainly don't consider Darwin a deity or his works infallible, although he was an excellent scientist and very loving and considerate person as far as I can tell.

I love the word "deities." It tickles.

If you object to teaching evolution in classrooms on the basis that it's "religious," why not also all other science? Why only evolution? Why not geology, astronomy, and physics, all of which include facts and theories that contradict the bible?

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

DEITY: Mine: Jehovah/Jesus - Yours: Self WRITINGS EXPAINING THAT DEITY: Mine: The Bible Yours: The works of Charles Darwin FORM OF SPREADING RELIGION: Mine: Various ministries of the Church - Yours: The public classroom, where only Darwin's ideas are allowed. Face it. Your reaction to my posts is the same as any religious fanatic when his cherished values are challenged.

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Why does everyone claim that darwin is some father of atheism. If evolution is true, which no self respecting scientist claims that it is absolutely correct, then why is it so hard for a christian to believe that maybe, just maybe god created man through evolution... and why must a christian, who represents 50% of the human race, be so scared. Is it maybe because you know deep in your heart your mythology is false??

And what makes science and religion so opposite

Christians: god said let there be light
Science: big bang theory

Christians: god created the heavans and the earth
Science: gravity caused stars and planets to form

Christians: god created two lights, greater light to rule the day and lesser light to rule the night.
Science: the earth revolves around the sun and rotates on its access and has a moon that orbits it

Christians: god creates life in the seas first on the 5th day, cattle and beast on the 6th day and to quote the bible "and god created grate whales and every living creature that moveth, which the waters broght forth abundantly"
Science: life eveolved in the oceans first, and according to evolution the THEORY (not law) is that land animals evolved from whales/dolphins, ancient aquatic mammals

And what about this line in genisis "and god said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over..."

Why is god plural there (gen 1:26)

And when is the last time an atheist flew airplanes into the world trade center. Whens the last time an atheist country started an illegal war (the communists started legal wars if your going to argue that point). There is good and evil in all people, weather or not they believe in fairy tales like the koran or bible, or in imperfect theories like a darwinist, if people spent more time thinking about how similar we were to one another, this world would be a better place

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Originally Posted by interinfinity

why does everyone claim that darwin is some father of athiesm. if evolution is true, which no self respecting scientist claims that it is absolutly correct, t

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I am fine with most of what you have said, interinfinity, but I do want to say that all self respecting biologists would say that evolution is true. It is not controversial among scientists. I agree that Darwin was not a father of atheism at all. He mostly avoided the subject because his wife was Christian and it pained her deeply to think that they would not be together in heaven. Darwin felt bad about hurting her because he loved her. But, still, he was not a believer either. His lost his faith as a young man.