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Originally Posted by De Maria

Although ST. Constantine (a Saint of the Eastern Church) was very active in bringing the Council together, the Council was under the authority of the Pope.

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You have to read history instead of the biassed position of the r/c church.ST Constantine was also the authority who gave Christ the 12/25 birthday. He made it that date so as to have it at the same time as the sun god. He did this so worshippers of the sun god could switch over easialy. Also when Constantine took power Christians were still being sent to the lions in Rome. He stopped that. Why did the pope not take authority over the Nicene Council instead of just sending 2 representatives just as all the other branches of the church and also submitted to all of their decisions? Constantine didn't convert until his death but he was very influential in saving the Christians and their religon.

Of course this is only a concern if you are a Christian and believe Christ as your saviour to be the only way. The bible is the point of reference from a Christian perspective.

If you were born and raised by a family living in India, Iran, or Japan, for example, odds are you wouldn't give this a second thought because it would not be part of your belief system. The vast majority of people grow up believing what they do because of where they were born and/or what their family may have practiced and believed. There are exceptions to be sure, but they are in the minority.

So are all others doomed?
Could you be persuaded to convert to Islam, Buddism, or any other religion? They obviously feel their beliefs are the "correct" point of view and would no more likely convert to Christianity than most Christians would convert elsewhere. After all, it is perfectly natural to hold fast to what you were raised to believe and understand.

Or could it be that God, in a greater wisdom, is present in some form throughout all religions and there is no one way that trumps the others... simply different paths?

Just throwing that out there... thoughts?? :)

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Originally Posted by DoulaLC

Of course this is only a concern if you are a Christian and believe Christ as your saviour to be the only way. The bible is the point of reference from a Christian perspective.

If you were born and raised by a family living in India, Iran, or Japan, for example, odds are you wouldn't give this a second thought because it would not be part of your belief system. The vast majority of people grow up believing what they do because of where they were born and/or what their family may have practiced and believed. There are exceptions to be sure, but they are in the minority.

So are all others doomed?
Could you be persuaded to convert to Islam, Buddism, or any other religion? They obviously feel their beliefs are the "correct" point of view and would no more likely convert to Christianity than most Christians would convert elsewhere. After all, it is perfectly natural to hold fast to what you were raised to believe and understand.

Or could it be that God, in a greater wisdom, is present in some form throughout all religions and there is no one way that trumps the others....simply different paths?

Just throwing that out there...thoughts??? :)

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GOD has manifested GOD(we do not really know what form(s) GOD takes or how manifastations HE has taken. They are all valid and probably all correct. I personaly like The Great Spirit of the Indian nations but I believe in The Holy Catholic Church of the Nicene era

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

GOD has manifested GOD(we do not really know what form(s) GOD takes or how manifastations HE has taken. They are all valid and probably all correct. I personaly like The Great Spirit of the Indian nations but I believe in The Holy Catholic Church of the Nicene era

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If you go back over this question, you will find many different answers in only the Christian religon alone. Think of all the different ways there are in the others. I believe only THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE TRUTH.

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Originally Posted by DoulaLC

Or could it be that God, in a greater wisdom, is present in some form throughout all religions and there is no one way that trumps the others....simply different paths?

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When I was a child growing up in a Missouri Synod (very conservative) Lutheran home, I believed that only Missouri Synod Lutherans would be in heaven.

When I got a bit older, I decided Lutherans from other synods would be in heaven.

In college, after taking some theology courses, I decided to allow Protestants in general and also Catholics into heaven.

When I hit middle age, it seemed okay to allow members of the other two monotheistic religions into heaven. (I worked with a Muslim girl and Jewish woman, and they were both very godly people.)

Now I'm retired, and throughout my library career have worked with and dealt with many people with all sorts of beliefs about the nature of God and people who are not sure and people with no belief.

What used to be so simple to me as a child is now a huge puzzle. I do believe God comes to us where we are, Doula, and the afterlife is a very big place.

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

You have to read history instead of the biassed position of the r/c church.ST Constantine was also the authority who gave Christ the 12/25 birthday. He made it that date so as to have it at the same time as the sun god. He did this so worshippers of the sun god could switch over easialy. Also when Constantine took power Christians were still being sent to the lions in Rome. He stopped that. Why did the pope not take authority over the Nicene Council instead of just sending 2 representatives just as all the other branches of the church and also submitted to all of thier decisons? Constantine didn't convert untill his death but he was very influencial in saving the Christians and thier religon.

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You need to read the so called "biased" position of the Church in order to eliminate from your thinking the biases of those who hate the Church.

The date of 12/25 is from the Bible. YES. From the Bible. From the Old Testament at that. And from the knowledge of Jewish doctrine.

Count back 9 months from December. That gives you March 25. Count forward seven days. That gives you April 1. The first day of the year in the Jewish Calendar.

What is significant about March 25. It is the first day of Creation. And Jesus birth was considered the first day of the New Creation.

I hope that helps.

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Originally Posted by DoulaLC

Of course this is only a concern if you are a Christian and believe Christ as your saviour to be the only way. The bible is the point of reference from a Christian perspective.

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Only since the advent of Luther. Prior to Luther, Christians understood that Jesus did not write even one word of the Bible. But that Jesus established a Church and commanded that Church to teach His Traditions.

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If you were born and raised by a family living in India, Iran, or Japan, for example, odds are you wouldn't give this a second thought because it would not be part of your belief system. The vast majority of people grow up believing what they do because of where they were born and/or what their family may have practiced and believed. There are exceptions to be sure, but they are in the minority.

So are all others doomed?
Could you be persuaded to convert to Islam, Buddism, or any other religion? They obviously feel their beliefs are the "correct" point of view and would no more likely convert to Christianity than most Christians would convert elsewhere. After all, it is perfectly natural to hold fast to what you were raised to believe and understand.

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And yet many have converted to Christianity. Why? Because they recognize the superiority of the wisdom of Christ.

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Or could it be that God, in a greater wisdom, is present in some form throughout all religions and there is no one way that trumps the others... simply different paths?

Just throwing that out there... thoughts?? :)

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God has revealed to humanity the way which trumps all others. It is up to us to embrace that way.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

When I was a child growing up in a Missouri Synod (very conservative) Lutheran home, I believed that only Missouri Synod Lutherans would be in heaven.

When I got a bit older, I decided Lutherans from other synods would be in heaven.

In college, after taking some theology courses, I decided to allow Protestants in general and also Catholics into heaven.

When I hit middle age, it seemed okay to allow members of the other two monotheistic religions into heaven. (I worked with a Muslim girl and Jewish woman, and they were both very godly people.)

Now I'm retired, and throughout my library career have worked with and dealt with many people with all sorts of beliefs about the nature of God and people who are not sure and people with no belief.

What used to be so simple to me as a child is now a huge puzzle. I do believe God comes to us where we are, Doula, and the afterlife is a very big place.

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No doubt, but I don't judge before time. And God gave us a commandment to teach all His doctrines. So, whether they will be in heaven or not is not my job to decide. He is the just Judge.

Whether I am to teach those will listen, that is my job. It is our job. Otherwise, we may also be lost.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

No doubt, but I don't judge before time.

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Neither did I.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Neither did I.

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We agree? :eek: ;)

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Originally Posted by De Maria

We agree?! :eek: ;)

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You weren't kicking me?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You weren't kicking me?

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Moi?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Only since the advent of Luther. Prior to Luther, Christians understood that Jesus did not write even one word of the Bible. But that Jesus established a Church and commanded that Church to teach His Traditions.



And yet many have converted to Christianity. Why? Because they recognize the superiority of the wisdom of Christ.



God has revealed to humanity the way which trumps all others. It is up to us to embrace that way.

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But again this comes from a Christian prospective. Many have also converted to other religions... why? Because they too felt another religion to be superior in their understanding. It is no different.

Many, in years past, had little choice but to convert to Christianity... as was the same for many religions who wanted or needed to obtain valuable acquisitions and grow their flocks.

The vast majority of people do not seek out to fully learn about other religions and will follow what they were raised to believe. For them there is no reason to learn more than perhaps the fundamentals as they obviously believe their own beliefs to be justified and proven over time.

What Christians believe to be the ultimate trump card is not what others believe... and that would be understandable and expected, otherwise they wouldn't be Christians... :)

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Originally Posted by DoulaLC

But again this comes from a Christian prospective. Many have also converted to other religions... why? Because they too felt another religion to be superior in their understanding. It is no different.

Many, in years past, had little choice but to convert to Christianity... as was the same for many religions who wanted or needed to obtain valuable acquisitions and grow their flocks.

The vast majority of people do not seek out to fully learn about other religions

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That is the reason for the Great Commission.

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and will follow what they were raised to believe. For them there is no reason to learn more than perhaps the fundamentals as they obviously believe their own beliefs to be justified and proven over time.

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From my own experience and many whom I've spoken to over the years, there seems to come a time when people question the validity of what they've learned. Yes, even Catholics.

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What Christians believe to be the ultimate trump card is not what others believe... and that would be understandable and expected, otherwise they wouldn't be Christians... :)

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True. But are you arguing that because some people have not been exposed to the trump card, they should never be exposed to said trump card?

You don't seem to be arguing that all religions are equal. But I'll ask, are you?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

You don't seem to be arguing that all religions are equal. But I'll ask, are you?

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Is there a contest going on?

Not really arguing a point at all, and my apologies to the OP for the hijack.

Only point I am trying to make is that for the vast majority of people, their beliefs are based on where they happened to be born in this world, and what the prevailing religion was in that country and/or their homes as they were raised which is evident as you find religious majorities around the world.

I don't believe anyone would change my way of thinking in my own beliefs anymore than I would presume to try and change someone else's if they felt steadfast in what they believed to be true. My own husband is a case in point... we have vastly different beliefs due to how we were raised, personal experiences, and what makes sense to us. Those are the ways people come into a religion.

Sharing what you have learned and believe is one thing, and sharing that information with those who want to know more is great, certainly nothing wrong with it... most religions encourage it. Refusing to understand that others will not believe the same and will holdfast to their beliefs just as strongly as you might, and/or suggesting they are "doomed" because they believe differently is another. (you in a general sense)

I am quite sure that if I were to have been born in another country, within another family, and raised to believe differently from the circumstances I happened to be born into, my beliefs would probably be very different than they are. It only stands to reason.

I think God is more likely to be inclusive than exclusive given the various beliefs that people around the world hold and knowing what is in people's hearts. It is man that takes issue with differences, as is done in every other area in life.

I think God would have a better understanding.

Same destiny, simply different paths in the journey.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Is there a contest going on?

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I wasn't aware of one. Just a discussion. Does argument necessarily mean contest or debate?

I have bolded the meaning I intended from my use of the word.

Definitions of argument on the Web:

* a fact or assertion offered as evidence that something is true; "it was a strong argument that his hypothesis was true"
* controversy: a contentious speech act; a dispute where there is strong disagreement; "they were involved in a violent argument"
* a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal; "the argument over foreign aid goes on and on"
* a summary of the subject or plot of a literary work or play or movie; "the editor added the argument to the poem"
* (computer science) a reference or value that is passed to a function, procedure, subroutine, command, or program
* a variable in a logical or mathematical expression whose value determines the dependent variable; if f(x)=y, x is the independent variable
* argumentation: a course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating a truth or falsehood; the methodical process of logical reasoning; "I can't follow your line of reasoning"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

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Originally Posted by DoulaLC

Not really arguing a point at all,....

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Judging from your opening sentence and Wondergirl's response, my input must be making you uncomfortable. Sorry about that.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Judging from your opening sentence and Wondergirl's response, my input must be making you uncomfortable.

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Neither of us is uncomfortable -- at least I'm not.

Doula makes several good points. We should start a new thread.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Judging from your opening sentence and Wondergirl's response, my input must be making you uncomfortable. Sorry about that.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Nope... not uncomfortable at all... just discussing various points of view... :)

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Originally Posted by DoulaLC

Nope...not uncomfortable at all.....just discussing various points of view...:)

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May I copy and paste some of your words to start a new thread, so we aren't hijacking this one -- or are we on target enough here?

Actually I suppose we are still on target since the orignial post was questioning how one might or might not receive God's grace. (Also providing an example of variations in translation and interpretation.)

The questioning just went further to wonder about the thoughts of others as to the paths taken by those who were not raised in a Christian denomination.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

You need to read the so called "biased" position of the Church in order to eliminate from your thinking the biases of those who hate the Church.

The date of 12/25 is from the Bible. YES. From the Bible. From the Old Testament at that. And from the knowledge of Jewish doctrine.

Count back 9 months from December. That gives you March 25. Count forward seven days. That gives you April 1. The first day of the year in the Jewish Calendar.

What is significant about March 25. It is the first day of Creation. And Jesus birth was considered the first day of the New Creation.

I hope that helps.

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Not only isn't the day of HIS birth not mentioned but many other dates could be devised to get to them as the date. Starting with the historical events mentioned in the bible took place before,look up the death of Herold (3-4 BC) so not only don't we know the day we don't even know the year. Problely somewhere between 7BC till 6AD . So you see the bible was not in sinc with history

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Not only isn't the day of HIS birth not mentioned but many other dates could be devised to get to them as the date. Starting with the historical events mentioned in the bible took place before,look up the death of Herold (3-4 BC) so not only don't we know the day we don't even know the year. Problely somewhere between 7BC till 6AD . So you see the bible was not in sinc with history

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Also why did Mary & Joseph take such a hard trip while she was carrying Jesus? If you check the history books no such census was held at that time. I submit my answer ,that it was Constantine ,who came up with that date was correct.

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Originally Posted by DoulaLC

Actually I suppose we are still on target since the orignial post was questioning how one might or might not receive God's grace. (Also providing an example of variations in translation and interpretation.)

The questioning just went further to wonder about the thoughts of others as to the paths taken by those who were not raised in a Christian denomination.

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We probably will go much further since there is so much difference in thought between Christians,Catholics,Chaple people .etc. Wait until some non Christians come into it. We can on forever or change the original question and go on forever IT WON'T ever come to a conclusion until the HOLEY SPIRIT gives us the answer

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Not only isn't the day of HIS birth not mentioned but many other dates could be devised to get to them as the date. Starting with the historical events mentioned in the bible took place before,look up the death of Herold (3-4 BC)

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Which Herod? There were several of them.

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so not only don't we know the day we don't even know the year.

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I didn't say that we knew the day. I explained why the date was set at Dec 25. You said it was because of Pagan influence. And I explained it is because the first day of Creation has been March 25 ever since Moses established the date for the first Passover.

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Problely somewhere between 7BC till 6AD . So you see the bible was not in sinc with history

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The Bible is perfectly in sync with history. Human knowledge is just catching up to the Bible and is proving the Bible true.

God sent his only son.. Jesus to be the messiah. Jesus died on the cross when he was thirty three years old.

He arose and the plan of salvation
Came to be. You must be born again and to do that you have to be drawn by the spirit.

The Lord will trouble your heart and you will know it's him. You have a choice accept him as your personal Saviour or not.

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Also why did Mary & Joseph take such a hard trip while she was carrying Jesus? If you check the history books no such census was held at that time.

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Yes. There was a census.

The first option is defended by Ernest Martin in CKC:90:

" A Latin inscription found in 1764 about one-half mile south of the ancient villa of Quintilius Varus (at Tivoli, 20 miles east of Rome) states that the subject of the inscription had twice been governor of Syria. This can only refer to Quintilius Varus, who was Syrian governor at two different times. Numismatic evidence shows he ruled Syria from 6 to 4 B.C., and other historical evidence indicates that Varus was again governor from 2 B.C. to A.D. I. Between his two governorships was Sentius Saturninus, whose tenure lasted from 4 to 2 B.C. Significantly, Tertullian (third century) said the imperial records showed that censuses were conducted in Judea during the time of Sentius Saturninus. (Against Marcion 4:7). Tertullian also placed the birth of Jesus in 3 or 2 B.C. This is precisely when Saturninus would have been governor according to my new interpretation. That the Gospel of Luke says Quirinius was governor of Syria when the census was taken is resolved by Justin Martyr's statement (second century) that Quirinius was only a procurator (not governor) of the province (Apology 1:34). In other words, he was simply an assistant to Saturninus, who was the actual governor as Tertullian stated."


The second option is favored by William Ramsey (NBD, s.v. "Quirinius"):

"The possibility that Quirinius may have been governor of Syria on an earlier occasion (*Chronology of the NT) has found confirmation in the eyes of a number of scholars (especially W. M. Ramsay) from the testimony of the Lapis Tiburtinus (CIL, 14. 3613). This inscription, recording the career of a distinguished Roman officer, is unfortunately mutilated, so that the officer's name is missing, but from the details that survive he could very well be Quirinius. It contains a statement that when he became imperial legate of Syria he entered upon that office 'for the second time' (Lat. Iterum). The question is: did he become imperial legate of Syria for the second time, or did he simply receive an imperial legateship for the second time, having governed another province in that capacity on the earlier occasion?. The wording is ambiguous. Ramsay held that he was appointed an additional legate of Syria between 10 and 7 because, for the purpose of conducting the Homanadensian war, while the civil administration of the province was in the hands of other governors, including Sentius Saturninus (8-6 bc), under whom, according to Tertullian (Adv. Marc. 4. 19), the census of Lk. 2:1ff. Was held.

Under either of these scenarios, SOMEONE served twice, and under either of these scenarios, Quirinius could EASILY have been responsible for the census.
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/quirinius.html

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I submit my answer ,that it was Constantine ,who came up with that date was correct.

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No. That's wrong.

Nobody is predestined to go to hell. He said MY grace is sufficient for all.

And this one "For God so LOVED the world that he gave his only begotten, that WHOSOEVER
believeth in him shall not persish,
but have everlasting life".

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Which Herod? There were several of them.

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Herod the Great, obviously.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I didn't say that we knew the day. I explained why the date was set at Dec 25. You said it was because of Pagan influence. And I explained it is because the first day of Creation has been March 25 ever since Moses established the date for the first Passover.

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That doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

The Bible is perfectly in sync with history. Human knowledge is just catching up to the Bible and is proving the Bible true.

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Yet again we agree. We've got to stop doing this!! ;)