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For whatever it's worth, this isn't even controversial among academics, be they Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, Jewish, or secular/atheist. Scholars love to disagree, but on this point one doesn't find scholarly disagreement. The only people I know of who take a contrary view are non-academic polemicists. But their work has been just obliterated by academic historians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Right. One finds precisely the same view in the early Fathers, and among the Eastern Orthodox. Scripture is one, indispensable, part of Tradition. But it isn't, and was never intended to be, the whole of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Then why did you ask?Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
If scripture tells you all trhat you need to know about the goispel and to be completrely, thoroughly equippped, then what else do you need? In what way do yopu think scripture is inadequate?Quote:
Notice that it doesn't say that Scripture is complete, it says "that the man of God may be complete".
The omniscience of God is in scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Why, do you doubt it?
I asked because 2Tim.3.14-17 doesn't say, nor even intimate, that Scripture is complete, and so I gave you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that you had some other Scripture in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Notice that the passage from 2Tim. That you quote doesn't say that Scripture "tells you all that you need to know" in order to be "completely, thoroughly equipped". It says that Scripture--and the Scripture to which it refers is, of course, the OT--is "profitable", i.e. useful. Scripture is useful in matters of doctrine and discipline (something no one here has denied). Usefulness is a long, long way from sufficiency: The passage you have offered says only that Scripture is useful, not that it is sufficient. The same goes for your frequent mention of the episode with the Bereans: That shows the usefulness of Scripture (again, the OT), not that Scripture is by itself the sole standard. Paul commends the Bereans for studying and searching the OT--the Septuagint, which includes books which you reject. Again, everyone who has so far posted here agrees about the usefulness, the importance, of Scripture. What you haven't nearly shown is that Scripture itself endorses your assertion that Scripture alone is the sole standard. Therefore, your claim is itself un-Biblical.
And you seem to be ignoring those many passages, several of which I have cited, which indicate the authoritativeness (and hence usefulness, to say the very least) of oral Tradition. You also haven't given any Scriptural grounds for choosing the canon you use. So I think it's fair to say that I don't find Scripture do be inadequate. It is your understanding of Scripture that it inadequate. You have misunderstood 2Tim.3, you have failed to take any account of the fact that Scripture repeatedly affirms the authoritativeness of oral Tradition, and you have failed to provide any Scriptural justification for both your canon of Scripture and your adherence to the doctrine of sola scriptura. Taken together, these more than adequately demonstrate that you are not a Biblical Christian, that your claims and the views you espouse are not grounded in Scripture. In fact, the canon of Scripture you use is itself a product of Tradition, the very thing you claim to eschew.
As usual, what I doubt is not Scripture but the veracity of your claims. Where in Scripture is it said that the canon of Scripture was determined by God before the foundation of the world? (This is what you asserted. My question called for you to provide Scriptural evidence for this claim.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
And, if it were determined by God before the foundation of the world, where in Scripture are we told which texts are part of Scripture?
Kindly provide Scriptural validation for your claims.
Tom, et al:
Assuming that ‘Standards’ are critical in our faith, that we must conform to some ‘Standard’ which Standard is Scripturally demonstrated? Why wouldn't Catholic 'Standard' work?
JoeT
Tom, et al:
If 'Standards' are critical for assessing truth, then why must there only be One 'Standard'. I say this considering that In the past you've asserted that one faith was as good as another (excluding Catholicism of course). Why not Catholicism as the One Faith. After commissioning Peter and the Church Christ prayed “And not for them only do I pray…That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”(John 17:20 seq) Is it not the prayer of Christ that we be ONE. If we were ONE after Christ rose from the dead, after the Temple was destroyed, after Constantine made Catholicism the state religion, after St. Thomas and after several hundred Vicars of Christ why then do we need to be the Tom's one standard?
JoeT
Tom, et al:
You have stated the Bible is the only source of revelation of cosmic truths (paraphrasing your comments). This makes the Bible worthy of worship. Do you 'worship' the bible? Is your bible worthy of to receive sacrifice, did your bible hang on a cross, and does a BOOK give your unmerited grace of redemption, salvation, and justification?
JoeT
Keep repeating it enough times and maybe some people will start believing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
No, I am not ignoring them. We have discussed them so many times, that I am choosing not to waste my time on some of your responses. You seem to ignore my answers in any case, constantly repeating the same things over and over even after they have been answered.Quote:
And you seem to be ignoring those many passages, several of which I have cited, which indicate the authoritativeness (and hence usefulness, to say the very least) of oral Tradition.
Do you mean why won't adding man's words (denominational teachings, adding books to the Bible, etc.) to God work? Because they are man's words not God's.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
You never responded to my question last night about how we got the Bible (the canon) as it is today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Because, unlike the New Age teachers, Christianity believes that there is one truth, not many conflicting truths.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Not only have I NEVER said that, I also have frequently spoken against such a belief. Interesting how people choose to mis-represent when the facts don't go their way.Quote:
I say this considering that In the past you’ve asserted that one faith was as good as another (excluding Catholicism of course).
I did respond to that issue (post 63, 65 and 70).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
No, I never said that. You are not paraphrasing, you are choosing to mis-represent once again.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
No, you didn't. You said God inspired men to write the Scriptures. That wasn't my question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
How did the OT and later the NT end up with the books that are in them and in the order they are? Who decided the Gospel of Thomas was not to be included? Who decided Revelation was to be included?
Read again. God chose what was included in scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
You think order is important?Quote:
How did the OT and later the NT end up with the books that are in them and in the order they are?
God. You think God could inspire what was written in the Bible but didn't know what books would be in it?Quote:
Who decided the Gospel of Thomas was not to be included? Who decided Revelation was to be included?
Whom did He tell? How did we get the Bible with the books that are in it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Ever heard of prophetic revelation? Must we keep going around in circles?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
The books have been inspired and written. That part is done. Who then decided which books and mss. of all that were floating around, were the inspired Scriptures?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
So, let me get this straight. God could inspired the books, but was completely helpless in deciding which books should be part of scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
So then how did He know which books to inspire?
You tell me, you’re the one that suggested that there must be only ONE ‘Standard’. I merely paraphrased your words so I could ask the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777Tom, et al:
If ‘Standards’ are critical for assessing truth, then why must there only be One ‘Standard’. I say this considering that In the past you’ve asserted that one faith was as good as another (excluding Catholicism of course). Why not Catholicism as the One Faith. After commissioning Peter and the Church Christ prayed “And not for them only do I pray…That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”(John 17:20 seq) Is it not the prayer of Christ that we be ONE. If we were ONE after Christ rose from the dead, after the Temple was destroyed, after Constantine made Catholicism the state religion, after St. Thomas and after several hundred Vicars of Christ why then do we need to be the Tom’s one standard?
JoeT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
JoeT
My question is who decided which books to include in the canon that we use today?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
God. Clear enough for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
How many different times and different ways must I say it.
Oh, yes you did, in 2004Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
JoeT
Who was inspired by God to include Revelation but not the Gospel of Thomas?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Show us the link.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Joe, are we going to go down this road again? Must you lie?
Many people. Do I know all the names, and where they lived? Do I care and if so why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Yes, you should care and know. This is important history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Really? Then you should go study it. I am satisfied to know that God is the source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Does it say that in Scripture? Does it list the books? Where does it say that the Holy Spirit will bring us different Truths and we're to be tolerant of our individual faiths ? And how do we all have different individual faiths and still be One as John 17 requires. How many different 'standards' are there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Are you questioning or judging the Bible?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Yes, where does it say that?Quote:
Where does it say that the Holy Spirit will bring us different Truths and we're to be tolerant of our individual faiths ?
One standard. One faith.Quote:
And how do we all have different individual faiths and still be One as John 17 requires. How many different 'standards' are there?
Do we have a 'standard' history according to Tom? I must’ve missed that verse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Ah so now after mis-representation, then the lie, now it is going after me personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
How about dealing with the issue, Joe, or is that just too hard?
I'm not judging Scripture; I've got an authority over me to validate the meaning for me. I'm questioning the gospels according to Tom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Where in Scripture does it say "one standard".
He'll never admit who sat around and were inspired to select the books that made it into the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
What is more important - Who? Or the fact that God inspired the Bible?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Clearly we have two different views as to what is important.
Tom dosen't even admit his own words.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
JoeT
It’s very important, especially if it going to deal with the disposition of my eternal soul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
My faith for my salvation is in God's word and in my Saviour Jesus Christ, not in the men that God inspired.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Choose as you wish.
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