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That is what you say, but not what scripture says:Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
1 John 1:7-8
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV
The blood shed on the cross cleanses us, not suffering in purgatory.
Joe,
You are right.
The original question was "Why is there a belief in Purgatory" and that has been answered here several ways.
There are a great many others Catholic and more that believe in the existence of Purgatory.
Frankly I'm glad there there is such a place to make us completely pure so that we can dwell in God's heavenly kingdom.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I thanks God that He said that when we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord, and that we are cleansed and purified through Jesus sacrifice on the cross. There is no need for any Christian to spend time in a fiery punishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tj3,
Who said that Purgatory is a place of fire.
Our sinful nature is cleaned AS THOUGH it was done by fire.
The people mentioned in the bible who were in purgatory were not described as though they were burning.
Fair enough. So Jessus died protecting us?
Wouldn't it make sense that we are all innocent then? If GOD truly knows us all and Knows ALL, then he knows why we all did what we did, why we think, feel, act and generally behave the way we do. Especailly since he created us! Haha, so he knows what we will do, how we will do it, and there for forgave us all before we ever even existed.
I mean really, "he" (I use this term loosely, I don't think GOD is of gender, nor of entity, more of everything that is. Like the force in star wars. Key word "LIKE") made us, knowing everything we'd ever do. There for, he created us to do what is is we do, no matter what we "choose". So, do we have free will? Or are we a product of "his" creation and therefor subject to do what "he" created us for?
Why have a pergatory, and where, what is pergatory?
Scripture says that our sinful nature is cleansed by the blood on the cross. If you want to keep telling us this, why not post some scriptural validation?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
He died on the cross paying the price for our sins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestorian
God gave us freewill. When you are given a gift, you have the option to accept it, or reject it. The same is true here. Jesus paid the price, and you have the choice to accept it, or reject it.Quote:
Wouldn't it make sense that we are all innocent then? If GOD truly knows us all and Knows ALL, then he knows why we all did what we did, why we think, feel, act and generally behave the way we do. Especailly since he created us! Haha, so he knows what we will do, how we will do it, and there for forgave us all before we ever even existed.
There is no purgatory.Quote:
Why have a pergatory, and where, what is pergatory?
You may have missed my point, I know it's my choice to accept or decline my "free will", but if we were created by GOD, and he knew what we'd do to start with, then is it really free will, if he knew?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
He made us who we are, everything that we do is dictated by our brains no? SOme of us can resist behaving in some way or another, but what about some one with say a mental illness, like Bipolar? GOD made that person with Bipolar, and now they behave irradically, and possibly kill some one, while on a manic high. Not even realising what they are doing... Tell me then, is that person to be blamed for their sin?
Tj3,
It has been posted here on this thread. I believe that Joe was one of the posters of those references.
The one about fire was 1 Cor 3:15. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
That's one of the several places in the bible that speak of the existence of Purgatory.
A persons bad works are clean up but the person will be saved.
There are several posts here that speak of what purgatory is like and some folks that are or have been there.
But all things are open to interpretation, on account that we have a free will and all...Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Nestorian.
Even though God know all past, present and future He does not interfere with our free will.
Yes He knows what our future will be, but we do not.
It us we who decides what our future will be not God,
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Are you sure about that? Because I'm almost sure, that some one born with a disability, or that gets cancer, or develops some kind of mental illness due to genetics is not a personal prefrence, nor choice...Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
We make choices baised upon what we are, we have needs, and baised upon those needs we react. Choice thoery, by William Glasser.
1)Physical needs, such as water, food, shelter, etc.
2)Belonging/ love, such as being apart of some kind of social circle/ family/ loved ones.
3)Freedom/ responsibility, self explanitory.
4)Power/ significants, once again self explainitory.
5)FUN, self explainitory.
These are the needs that generally have to be met for us to enjoy life. IF GOD created us, then a man/ women who is mentaly ill and thinks they see demons in people and kills countless people, as I'm sure this has happened before though I can not recall any specifics, to protect us and themselves from these "demons"; then tell me, where is the free will.
To say that they could logically say, well deomons don't exsist, or that it's not right to hurt people, is a little lame. That would be like me telling you that a big freeking truck coming at you full speed won't hurt you, it's not real. You'd be blindfolded, and staning in front of it. But the truck would past you harmlessly by, if you didn't move, if you did, you'd have a fifty/ fifty chance of survival. See my point. You don't know, but GOD did, does, Will. GOD would have had to KNown what you'd do when you'd do it, then created you to act just as you do. We are not able to simply ignore our biological funtions, that takes training, and time.
I don't think GOD knows, knew all. Other wise that would violate the idea of Free will. No? Unless you have some secret power to manipulate the world around you that we don't know about, then I'm sure you are like most and are a product of both Nature, and nurture. Biological responses, and cognitive figured responses. Eh?
I'm not entirely sure we have free will, if we need to react in specific ways to sufice our feelings of anxiety or fear so we can feel comfortable... Think about it, you're going to defend your belief for what ever reason, but you feel a need to do so, for what ever that reason is.
“Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealously. The shadow of greed, that is.”-yoda
Forgive me if it seems odd, but how is this any different form your beliefs in GOD? Pergatory, heaven, hell, and earth..?
1 Cor 3:11-16Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV
This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.
Where are they?Quote:
That's one of the several places in the bible that speak of the existence of Purgatory.
Fred, you are changing you claim about purgatory again. Previously you said that it purified or cleansed the person's sin nature. Now you say that it burns up the person's work's. Not only does this not have anything to say about purgatory, you are being inconsistent in your argument as to what purgatory is.Quote:
A persons bad works are clean up but the person will be saved.
There are several posts here that speak of what purgatory is like and some folks that are or have been there.
Those are man's words which led to deception. I have offered God's promise and His Words of Truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
It is not that I avoid the question, but I avoid the doubt that lies within the question, and in all that Christ flesh has offers us.
I can tell you again, being born again purified of the soul through the Holy Spirit in love for The Word which is Christ.
Here is His Fire..
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
And this word fire goes on to reference his power to purge the floor where God resides within us.
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Do you Believe His Words?
Are you baptized as The Word has shown, and as Christ ensampled?
Many are not... they have followed man
I saw it, and tried to address it in my last post. The point is that foreknowledge does not mean that God has removed your freewill. Even though He knew, you still have the ability to do as you will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestorian
Mental illness and other problems that vary from the perfection that god created come from man's sin, and his exercise of freewill. That is not God's doing. On the other hand, what is God's doing is to provide a way to be freed by the enslavement to sin and to be freed from the impact of sin, which is eternity in hell.Quote:
He made us who we are, everything that we do is dictated by our brains no? SOme of us can resist behaving in some way or another, but what about some one with say a mental illness, like Bipolar? GOD made that person with Bipolar, and now they behave irradically, and possibly kill some one, while on a manic high. Not even realising what they are doing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
That fire is done in baptism... That fire remains within us that are baptized.... He that suffers loss, is to suffer in fullfillment just as Christ did. And yes ye are saved, and by perservance of fire.. The fire which burns all that comes by the sins of flesh, where the Holy Spirit resides within you.
Those that believe in Christ can be baptized.... suffer to fulfillment of righteousness as Christ did. WE drink of His blood that was shed for us in rememberance of all that is possible in Christ.
~in Christ
Matthew 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (Also Luke 3:9)
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
If one can not believe that all things are possible in Christ Jesus .... they are left with fire which is found to destroy satan's deception
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth...
Then you are left with satan... in torment as shown by the scripture written
. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
Not just any man's words. It was the words of our former Pope John Paul II.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
So, if you're unwilling to answer this simple question, then I guess I can take your previous comments as little more than debate rhetoric? Apparently you don't intend to answer any questions candidly, rather skillfully like a good propagandist?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
I can tell you that it's once saved, always saved is deceiving and not normally found. Everybody, from day to day, falls short of the Glory of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
But, do these verses contend you will be perfect, without blemish, for the rest of your journey of life?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
There's that word again, 'purge'.
Yes, as taught by the Magisterium in harmony with Tradition and Scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Yes, I was baptized as an infant.
Agreed many don't, and those like Jan Hus, John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, and others, will find that they built their foundations on a crust of fragipan, not Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
JoeT
That may mean something in your denomination, but that does not mean anything to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Are you saying that GOD, who created me, you and all. Who knows all, simply made us to live our lives our way?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
But he created us with needs!! Five as far as choice thoery goes, and that is something any one could see. Other wise, why do people need to talk to one aother, why even be apart of society, the very society that is changing our planet! We feel the need of greed, and sad to say, but we are all subject to these needs, some times we can resist, but very few indeed. I mean really how smart is it to cut down as many trees as we do, dig up as many mines as we do for raw matierials? We NEED those things for our PHYSICAL SURVIVAL, the most basic of needs and still we continue to live as we do. You and I are no exception. Oh yes, GOD created me, with free will knowing what I'd do even before I'd do it, he had a repsonsibility to cahnge alter things so that "he" wouldn't know what the out come would be, other wise, GOD created me to do exactly as "HE" for saw. No, I don't think that GOD could have , known everything, and created me with freewill. That is a responsibility GOD would have to take on "his" own shoulders. I'm not saying I'm innocent, but I'm saying, that GOD created me to be everything I am. SO I have no free will, unless he didn't know everything... Because to know is to take responsibility.
"Knowledge is power, with poewr comes great responsibility, With responsibility comes Freedom." - Various sources.
Mental illness came from Man's Sin's? Are you sure about that? So then tell me, where does bipolar come from, what sin does one have to commit for one to get that kind of illness? GOD knew we'd sin, so created punichments? If you say that it's a thing of the devil, then why doesn't GOD correct his faults,and get rid of the devil? So we have to make a choice, but he knows what we'll choose any way.
You are describing and judging God by human standards. He is so much more than you give Him credit for. He is not you; He is God -- beyond our understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestorian
Yes, He gave us free will. We are not His puppets. We can choose to do good or we can choose to do ill.
When God gave man a choice (cf. the Garden of Eden story), man chose to do what benefitted himself even though it was the wrong choice. According to Gen. 3, the world then fell into a sinful condition with weeds in the garden and pain in childbirth and mental/physical illness. Temporal death was the sentence for all earthly creatures. But there will be a happy ending to the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestorian
Nope. I neither said nor implied that. God gave us a set of rules which were for our benefit, in much the same way that you parents told you what to do for your own benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestorian
What I said was "Mental illness and other problems that vary from the perfection that god created come from man's sin, and his exercise of freewill."Quote:
Mental illness came from Man's Sin's?
So, yes, God created this world in perfection, but through sin, we have seen deterioration. This is not referring to sa speciofic sin causes a specific condition, but rather nature itself suffers as a result of sin starting in the garden.
So are you saying that you would prefer to be a robot with no choices, no freewill?Quote:
GOD knew we'd sin, so created punichments? If you say that it's a thing of the devil, then why doesn't GOD correct his faults,and get rid of the devil? So we have to make a choice, but he knows what we'll choose any way.
And did he expect just a yes or no answer?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Joe this was my answer.. It is bold print..... This will be the third time I confirm the question with the same answer.
"I can tell you again, being born again purified of the soul through the Holy Spirit in love for The Word which is Christ."
Everyday and hourly we are all tempted.. confessing sin known and unknown is done through prayer to Our Father... It was taught to us by Christ in the prayer he told us to pray to the Father...Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Our Father, who art in heaven,hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation,but deliver us from it's evil.
For thy is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever, and ever. Amen
2 Sa 7:27 For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.
And now, O Lord GOD, thou art that God, and thy words be true, and thou hast promised this goodness unto thy servant: Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O Lord GOD, hast spoken it: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed forever. Amen
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joe, I believe in my heart of conviction in the love of God and His will. And I trust as his servant , he does hear and answer my prayer... therefore perfection is granted by God as Matthew 5:48 tells us
Note: The idea of once saved always saved is not something I have ever said.. because scripture tells us it can happen,, That is why prayer is imporant, and why we are to pray for His strength to be the house that He can use as a faithful servant unto love for God.
Hebrew 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
2 Peter 3:7 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
That is the desire of love for God within my heart. To rest in Christ and all that is possible through Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Example:
We acknowledge that Paul was not a god, and we can also acknowledge God's hand that does fans the fire to keep us safe. ..Paul was known first to be a sinner by flesh, yet kept free from sin unto righteousness. And let's not forget that God gives the angels charge over us that follow in obedience.
Acts 28: 3-5 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand. And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
Joe,
satan is that viper that will attempt to attach himself to us. We must shake him off into the fire that God fans to purify us. We do suffer but are saved..
We are liberated by Christ's love but we can still choose to reject his love or respond half-heartedly. When we die not many of us are saintly enough to go to heaven. We need to atone for our lack of love and neglect of those less fortunate than ourselves. The Greek idea of catharsis, i.e. purification by suffering, is an antidote to the modern tendency to insulate ourselves from all discomfort and hardship. It foreshadows belief in purgatory. A person who has never suffered has not fully developed and cannot be united to others. Otherwise Christ would not have allowed himself to be crucified...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
This suggests that it is by our merit or our suffering that we qualify ourselves for heaven. That is un-scriptural. The only hope that we have for heaven is through have Christ's righteousness imputed to us:Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyrey
Rom 4:22-25
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV
It's really, really difficult for Christians to believe that salvation is a free gift, isn't it. Human nature screams in protest and feels obliged to find a way to participate. After all, we've been told by our parents since we were toddlers that there's nothing free in this life...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
That is so true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Yes a set of rules to follow, that isn't freedom. That is restraint. Its like when the slaves worked hard, "We wont kill you or tourcher you if you work hard", the "Slave owners" may have said. God says, follow me, pray to me, and do as I commant and you won't be tourmented, tourchered and forsaken to hell/ pergatory Etc. That's not very Free to mee. I think GOD is different thank my luckey stars, but really you seem to be thinking that free will is simply being able to make a choice between, pain and rebellion, or pleasure and compliance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Mental illness is caused by a person sinning? Yes or No...
To be honest I question perfection, and wonder if it's not perfect as it is... Yes, life and all that is, is as GOD saw it to be come, so then it much be perfect no? Haha. All things must return to whence is came. It is the nature of things, we maybe speeding it up, but really we are here and we are of natural beings of the earth, for we are aprat of it, and it apart of us. We breath it's air, it breaths our CO2, we drink it's H2O and leave acidic urine. We eat of it's flesh, and leave... (we'll skip that on, haha.) OUR MOTHER EARTH, and we still don't take care of it, rather sad, but with out this revolation we'd not understand the very value of that very idea... Be thankful for what you have, what you are, and that you are, because you never know when it will be your time to go back to the earth and give back your contrabution to the earth.
I don't think that what you are talking about is "free will", freedom of choice maybe, but free will is being able to choose what you want with out consequence... I do not think there is such a thing thogh, for that is for a place of "Perfection", or heaven. As you may call it.
Also, we are pretty much very complex robots. Think about it, our brains work off firing electrical signals from one neuron to the next sending messages, information, and commands. We truly are robots, with very complex electrical systems. Eh? Think about it, our brain tells us what to feel, when to feel it, what to remember, what's imporant, what to believe, and how to act. Facianting, like a mechine, but with oddly made components.
Have you ever heard of the Anunnaki, some say they were the first civilization of man. And they mapped out the stars/ constelations. I've also heard they are the lost civilisation know as atlantis.
No one has to follow them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestorian
No, not because that particular person did a particular sin.Quote:
Mental illness is caused by a person sinning? Yes or No...
You live in this world and hear about abused children and animal cruelty and wars and people murdering other people, and think that's perfection?Quote:
To be honest I question perfection, and wonder if it's not perfect as it is...
But not as He made it to be. We screwed it up.Quote:
as GOD saw it to be come
Yup, that's what happens here on earth, no consequence or punishment for making a wrong choice (unless you get caught by another human).Quote:
I don't think that what you are talking about is "free will", freedom of choice maybe, but free will is being able to choose what you want with out consequence...
You really don't believe that, do you? If we are robots, we would be limited in what we can do. We aren't. The human brain has enabled us to fly like the birds and wipe out entire cities with the bomb and invent computers that started a huge room-sized things but now can fit into your pocket. My grandparents would be knocked over to know about cell phones, the Internet, a black US president. As far as emotions or personalities or even looks go, no two people are alike. We are robots? I don't think so.Quote:
Also, we are pretty much very complex robots.
That is what children say when they are told things for their own protection. They feel that they are being restricted, unaware that rules designed to keep us safe are in fact enhancing our freedom. If a person fails to follow the rules of the road and ends up seriously disability or dead, that is more restrictive on freedom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestorian
I agree with Wondergirl, and I think that my last response made that clear. It is also possible for people to do things which will cause mental illness directly (i.e. taking drugs), but that is not what I was referring to.Quote:
Mental illness is caused by a person sinning? Yes or No...
It is a story about false gods which was made up. There is no evidence for such a civilization in reality.Quote:
Have you ever heard of the Anunnaki, some say they were the first civilization of man. And they mapped out the stars/ constelations. I've also heard they are the lost civilisation know as atlantis.
Nestorian,
God's all knowing does not interfere with our free will.
We can live our lives as we want to, following rules or not.
Yes God knows how we will turn out but we do not.
Our job in this life is to live it the best we can.
Some do that some do it half heartedly and others do it as well as possible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Salvation is not a free gift without works and faith... We are offered the joy of His salvation when we follow. Then His salvation becomes our salvation. God is the Rock of our salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
(Psalms 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. )
Job 13:6 He also shall be my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him.
Christ died to free us from being slaves to sin... He set us Free to do Our Father's will in righteousness.. We are now His servants unto the will of God our Father..
If we do not do the will of God we reap affliction for going our own ways. That is why God says to fear Him and Love Him. As a child that would fear correction from wrong doing we should rejoice .
Psalms 119:75 know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.
Psalms 119: 107-109 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word. Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments. My soul is continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law.
Psalms 119:144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live. (follow Christ as you are a bought servant to do the Will of God)
That is why Faith without Works is dead...
Oh, I don't think it's any psychological incapacity. I think it's an honest disagreement with your understanding of Scripture. People like me look at the following verses (this isn't a comprehensive list by a long shot) and think that you're mistaken:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Mt.7.21
Mt.24.10-20
Mt.25.31-46
Lk.10.25-28
Jn.5.29
Rom.2.6-7
Gal.6.7-9
1Cor.6.9
1Cor.13.2-3
Jas.1.22
Jas.2.24
Phil.2.12-13
Heb.5.9
1Jn.2.3-7
Morever, people like me look at the pericopes that are cited in defense of your view and think that you've misunderstood a bunch of them (especially those that are drawn from Romans).
I think that Luther's work was profoundly interesting, and I take it very seriously, as I think you know. I'm not in sympathy with those who think it is devoid of merit. But I also think that E.P. Sanders (in Paul and Palestinian Judaism) and Wayne Meeks (in The First Urban Christians) have pretty well devastated his interpretation of Romans.
Yes I get that, but to punish a child for doing wrong is such a harsh way, as to hit them. I'd have to say when I see some one hit a child I almost consider walking up to them and just swatting them for it, upside the heaad. Then asking them how retarded they are. YOU DON"T HIT CHILDREN, so why send them to hell or pergatory?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Oh we choose that for our selves? Thats like putting a child in a room, lockin the door, and saying if you do as I tell you I will feed you, and give you water, if not, i will beat you. I do not think you or I will agree on this. I don't believe GOD is uncaring. Also, GOD can not love unconditionally, if there are conditions as to wether or not he lets you have a privliage of being in heaven with him. Seems a little conditional to me, but thats just, me. I guess that is why there is to each thier own, because when you see a green apple, i see and apple that is reflecting the colour green. The apple has no colour.
As for mental illness, yes some do cause mental illness, but what about people who are born with it, who dont do drugs?? I later did do drugs, but after my irradic behavious started. I was told i was depressed, I know now that was totally off. I am bipolar, and was when i was younger going though episodes of deep depression, then elated euphoria. Then i got messed up and started partying, drinking, and smoking pot. Good think i quite all that non-sense. I realised how slef stupidifying it really is. Not all mental illness is caused by a sin. My grandma killed her self because of her mental illness, and I just happen to get a another form of it. I"m not sure how it's linked to biological connections of generation to generation, but I do know that, most of my family on that side is affected with some kind of mental illness. Not because we did drugs, or that, but because it's in out genetic make up, possibly making us more pron to it I guess, I'm not a scientist.
So, what about that, am I a horrible perosn for when I was off my rocker when I was a child of 13, and thoguht that people desereved nothing but death? Oh yeah, I know psychotic right? But that's what was messing with my head, I was compleately messed up. Some people don't get it as bad, others worse, how can you assume that mental illness is a choice? People so drugs for different reasons, some to escape, some because it's "fun", others because they want to die in the first place... You idea is cold and I find it heartless, missguided, missunderstanding, and well sorry but foolish. If I can forgive them why can't GOD? Jessus would, and he died for our sins.
Acctually, it's believed by many, even a few of my more religious friends, agree that it is a possibility. Did you know that the Egyptions had batteries? Yeah, possibly used to go into the deep underground passagways of the pyramids, to give energy to lights, like light bulbs. I find that idea facinating. THe possibilities are endless. They have found mechanical devices that are said to have mapped out the stars, and their positions. I believe they siad it was like an astrological device. Used to tell some one what their traits are and what not. JUst facinating. I think there was a nother civilization called, Sumerians, Very intersting stuff, who talked of these beings coming down from the heavens and such. Super interesing indeed. At any rate I really don't think it matters what I think, nor what you think, it only matters that we are...
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Originally Posted by Wondergirl
You sound like fun wondergirl, I will be back to comment, and I'll clerify things for you. But just so you know, one person's view of a robot is not the same as another's. Also, I find it interesting that you would mention bombs and killing... Also, you don't seem to believe people can feel guilty do you?
Perhaps I shall share with you my personal beliefs.? :rolleyes: later.
First thing to realize is that most of the consequences that we face are of our own doing. God has given us rules for our own good, and when we choose to stray outside of those rules, we find out why. It is like if a child's parents tell them not to play around the stove, and they end up getting burned. Was that the cruelty of the parents that burned them? Or was it the child's disobedience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestorian
First, purgatory does not exist, so let's put that question to sleep right now. Second hell is real, but was not created for men to go to, but men choose hell over God. Hell was prepared for Satan and His demons:Quote:
Then asking them how retarded they are. YOU DON'T HIT CHILDREN, so why send them to hell or pergatory?
Matt 25:40-41
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
NKJVWe've been through that a few times already. Sickness, birth defects, mental illness, old age, etc. all these things have resulted from sin. It is a corruption of the perfect creation that came from God. I was clear when I stated that some situation may occur from direct action on the part of the person (i.e. drugs), but I was not presenting that as the primary cause. Please go back and reread.Quote:
As for mental illness, yes some do cause mental illness, but what about people who are born with it, who don't do drugs?
Of course, people can feel guilty. In fact, most people do when they are thinking of or actually breaking the law or doing something against what would be considered the moral and right. Conscience was something God instilled in humans when He first created them. Conscience is what usually keeps us well-behaved. (Freud called it the super ego.) Unfortunately, humans are also capable of ignoring their conscience (as they exercise their free will) -- that is, despite their conscience screaming at them, they continue to do that bad thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestorian
Because sin has caused a corruption of human nature and a universal depravity/death, individuals sometimes seem to be born without (or at least sometime in childhood develop emotionally and spiriturally without) a conscience. Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker, Edward Gein, Ted Kaczynski, and Diane Downs are a few of the famous ones. Did any of those feel guilty? Case histories and court reports say no, or at least no regret was ever expressed. Will God look closely at them on Judgment Day to determine if their lack of conscience and subsequent crimes were willful and deliberate or were simply because of a mental illness (corruption of human nature) that they had no control over? I think as I write this, if I ever saw a need for purgatory, this would be it, to rehab amoral individuals.
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Originally Posted by Tj3
Everything is open to interpretation. No, GOD made us to need things. That is in direct violation of my right to freedom. No? Imagine everything you value being taken from you... All that you love and care for, gone. Then what? YOu have no money, can't get work, no one cares about you, you have to steal to get food, or mug people to survive. Tell me, how is that Freedom, either steel or die of starvation? No you can't grow food you have no land, no seeds, nothing. A pair of old pants and a ragged old shirt. That's it, and shoes, I guess. I spose we could choose to die, but that is suicide. No? P.S. No social supports either, that's just cheating.
P.s. The child has the need to understand, and a natural curiosity.
So why in the name of GOD would we ever, go to hell, we are not satan nor demons? Mind you I've heard of them, and I've hear a story that convinces me that Jessus has bin here since his crusifiction. Hey, believe what you want, but all things are subject to interpretation, and are only of relative importance.
And just so you know, I think that Hell is only a word. The place is much worse, though I do not believe GOD to send us there, or let us got there for any reason. GOD your idea of GOD any way, in my mind, would be just as understanding as me, and forgiving. My idea is well, more complex. It could simply be my relation ship with GOD is different from that of yours. Niether of us is right nor wrong.
I question if there is a pergatory, but then my view of the after life/ existence is far different from what most would believe. Does it make me worng to believe differntly than you, even if I'm more true to your "morals" and have a bunch more that make me even more caring loving, understanding, and accepting than you? I just don't think GOD would as of us what is in the Bible, some yes, but not all. (THIS is a hypothetical question, as I do not really know where I stand on much matters, and where you stand on others.)
"Sickness, birth defects, mental illness, old age, etc., all these things have resulted from sin. It is a corruption of the perfect creation that came from God." - You
But GOD created us to be everything that we are? Everything we say think and do, is his making, he made us the way we are. Didn't he? We are supposed to have these things happen, other wise they wouldn't. He saw it and knew, and created us to be just that way. He took the responsibility when he knew all. That is his burden, is it not? We carry it, he watches it unfold. No?
As I've said, everything is open to interpretaion, clearification is not needed, but rather an idepth look at why you think it is so clear, for I do not believe as you do, or if I do, it's under a different name. I do believe all things are one, there for some one calles it GOD, another Science, GODS, our mother earth, the force, the source, Life, essence, creation/ existence and so on. All pieces of the same puzzle, but in reality, all are the same.
Very compelling and interesting, Wondergirl, I am curious about where your insights came from.
I do have to point out that you mentioned GOD having to inspect one upon judgment day, but um... Doesn't God already know? He shouldn't need to think, inspect, or ponder, he is all knowing. The choice was made before we even existed, on account that he created us, and Knew all. See how free will is stripped from us?
I don't actually believe that, but on the relative idea that GOD knew all to start with, and so ceated us with free will? Come on he had, has, and will have responsibility on himself for everything we do. I don't mean to sound snide or rude, not at all, but it sounds too human. I can't see GOD being like that. I mean if I can forgive people for what they are doing to the earth (I haven't yet, I still feel our race should burn in hell, but I'm hoping I'll learn to forgive myself and all people.) by changing it so fast, and killing animals, forests, the children who must carry our burdens, and so on. I do, for some odd reason, I understand why individuals do things, and I simply forgive them. I just don't like groups of people. I'll have to learn that one as I go I spose.
What I'm saying is how could GOD not forgive those people when I can? That would be rather well, I don't know what. A paradox I spose. GOD is spose to love all Unconditionally, and I do not, but I forgive all, even hitler. For what ever reasons I forgive them, they are my own. NO I'm not nuts, though I am bipolar. Still, I'm a regular person just like you, and I have needs just like you. I'll leave it at that for now...
Believe me the wrabit hole goes much deeper.
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