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Well I would say to you all, including classyt... Matthew chapter 7, don't judge another, as Jesus would say. If for instance you say "may God **** you" this is asking God to act, but if you say "**** you" you are assuming yourself equal to God and able to judge other people in His place, the same as when we might speak ill of the dead, people who have already been judged by God. So think whatever you think, but it is none of our place to tell another.
The twelve apostles were Peter, Andrew, James, John, Bartholomew, Matthew, Philip, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was replaced by Matthias Acts chapter 1.
Paul at this time was still a practicing Jew and was present for the stoning of Stephen, the first Christian martyr Acts chapter 7
It was only afterwards that Paul was converted.
I am not for any particular denomination, but Paul means that if we have divisions among ourselves we are not thinking of ourselves as all members of the one body of Christ
There are 66 books. But Paul completed the Bible. That is what he said.. not me. I don't believe that anything that has been have added to the Christian church is biblical. That's all. And if I appear to be judging you, I'm NOT. I really wanted to know where catholic got their belief system.. thats all. Some of it is biblical.. some of it isn't. That is the way I see it anyway. The LORD decided what would be added. Just like he inspired the writers to write the books. And I believe he perserved his Word through men.. (i.e. the scribes)Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
And I agree with you. We are all one body, I don't care what denomination. (as long as you are really saved. )Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
You'll have to show me where it says Paul completed the Bible. Im not familiar with that verse.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Quote:
I don't believe that anything that has been have added to the Christian church is biblical. That's all.
What has been added?
Judge away.Quote:
and if I appear to be judging you, I'm NOT.
Quote:
I really wanted to know where catholic got their belief system.. thats all. Some of it is biblical.. some of it isn't. That is the way I see it anyway. The LORD decided what would be added. Just like he inspired the writers to write the books. And I believe he perserved his Word through men.. (i.e. the scribes)
The simple answer is that Catholics get their commission, authority to teach, authority of sanctification, and supremacy to fix doctrine, from Christ through Peter and the Apostles as taught by their successors as evidenced in Scriptures:
The Catholic Church receives its commission directly from Christ:
Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matt 28:18-20)
The Church has the Scriptural Authority to Teach:
And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give.. . That which I tell you in the dark, speak ye in the light: and that which you hear in the ear, preach ye upon the housetops. (Matt 10:7, 27)
And he made that twelve should be with him, and that he might send them to preach. (Mk 3:14)
And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mk 16:15)
The Church has the authority of Sanctification:
Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)
If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. (John 6:52-53)
And taking bread, he gave thanks and brake and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. (Luke 22:19)
And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. (1 Cor 11:24)
When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (John 20:22-23)
The Church has supremacy to fix doctrine:
Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. (Matt 18:18)
And sitting down, he called the twelve and saith to them: If any man desire to be first, he shall be the last of all and be minister of all. (Mk 9:35)
Christ obliges all to submit to the power of the Apostles.
He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive the reward of a prophet: and he that receiveth a just man in the name of a just man, shall receive the reward of a just man. (Matt 10:40-41)
Amen, amen, I say to you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me: and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. (John 13:20)
He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me (Lk 10:16)
And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:20)
JoeT
There is no indiaction that Judas was God's choice - that is the only Apostle that no mention of God's endorsement is given to. Paul on the other hand was called by Jesus directly and called an Apostle.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
And scripture says that there are only 12 Apostles.
I see nothing about any denomination mentioned there, and this, BTW, is not establishing the authority of any manmade organization.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Yep - again, not referring to any denominationQuote:
The Church has the Scriptural Authority to Teach:
And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give.. . That which I tell you in the dark, speak ye in the light: and that which you hear in the ear, preach ye upon the housetops. (Matt 10:7, 27)
This verse says nothing of the sort. It is the Holy Spirit who sanctifies.Quote:
The Church has the authority of Sanctification:
Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)
Doctrines were set in scripture. No man has the right to alter, add to, or remove from what it says. Nor, according to scripture, can any man intepret scripture, not me, not you, not the pope, no one.Quote:
The Church has supremacy to fix doctrine:
Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. (Matt 18:18)
And sitting down, he called the twelve and saith to them: If any man desire to be first, he shall be the last of all and be minister of all. (Mk 9:35)
This passage not say that but in any case it does not matter since there are no apostles alive on earth today.Quote:
Christ obliges all to submit to the power of the Apostles.
He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive the reward of a prophet: and he that receiveth a just man in the name of a just man, shall receive the reward of a just man. (Matt 10:40-41)
BTW, in order to properly understand what scripture says about the Church, one must first understand what "the church" is according to scripture. First and foremost it is not a denomination.
The verses that speak about unity do not at any time speak about denominations or organizational unity, but rather the unity that exists amongst all believers through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
I see no one on this thread judging others, but we are commanded to judge doctrine and actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
Exactly. WOW... you are pretty smart! I agree totally with that and most people don't see it that way...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Joet,
Colossians 1:25
Whereof I am made minister, according the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God.
That was Paul job, he fulfilled the Word of God and we are warn other places not to add to it.
Judas was a man just like any other, who heard the word of God and then chose to sin and disregard it. I'm saying Jesus while walking on earth before he was crucified, chose the 12, later he chose 72. After Judas left their company the remaining 11 chose another (Matthias) for whatever reason is not clear, maybe it had something to do with there being 12 tribes of Israel. Only sometime later was Paul even converted to Christianity. Paul himself calls these others the Pillars of the Church and the Super Apostles but he was in agreement with them and called himself an Apostle or a follower of Christ.
I like to read the New Testament like a CSI sometimes, maybe this isn't a good idea and it's easier for someone who has never read all of it before and so has no preconceived notions:
If you look at Paul or Saul's early ministry, he was walking in the footsteps of Jesus actually in most of the things he did, which could account for his tremendous success and wide popularity. It seems to this investigator that he almost thought he, Saul named after all for the first king of Israel, should have been appointed king of the Jews--his preaching, his appearance before the Jewish leaders and the Roman rulers.
And again I mention Joshua, who took over for Moses and set up a stone as a witness, just like Laban and Jacob did, and like the Israelites set up an altar in the wilderness that was different from the altar in the temple. After Peter another man and then another was set up as the witness rock.
12 were Apostles, and only 12.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
These are not apostles, so it is not clear what your point is with respect to the 70 (not 72).Quote:
later he chose 72.
Luke 10:1-2
10:1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.
NKJV
Yes, and unlike the other Apostles, this was the only one identified who was not chosen by or endorsed by Jesus. He may have been a very good man - I don't doubt it - but scripture does not show any indiaction that this was God's choice.Quote:
After Judas left their company the remaining 11 chose another (Matthias) for whatever reason is not clear, maybe it had something to do with there being 12 tribes of Israel.
He does not say that they are pillars to the exclusion of others, Indeed the term applies to all believers:Quote:
Only sometime later was Paul even converted to Christianity. Paul himself calls these others the Pillars of the Church and the Super Apostles but he was in agreement with them and called himself an Apostle or a follower of Christ.
Rev 3:12
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God.
NKJV
As for "super Apostles", I believe that you are referring to this passage where he points out that he is their equal:
2 Cor 11:5-6
5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles.
NKJV
It is also not clear who specifically he is referring to here.
So again, with all due respect, it is not clear what the point is that you are trying to make with these references.
Well more to the point what does classyt think. Because I'm not sure she gets this whole reformation business. They left us, we didn't somehow develop independently of them.
I also looked at Deut 1:9--18 elders of the faith
Acts 8:9--19 shows that's God's favor is given like it was to Paul, not something that is handed out to anyone
Deut 18:15--22 gift of prophecy
Paul talks about his ministry at Galatians 1:11--24, 2:1--11, Acts 11:19--26 Acts 15:1--12 here he shows that he started independently but that he met with Peter and the others and they were all in agreement.
That is quite different from, say starting up your own sect and expecting everyone else to follow you, and if they don't leaving the church and starting your own.
Keep in mind that throughout history there have always been Christians outside of the Roman Catholic church, but for most of this timeframe (counted from the start of the Roman catholic church in 325AD) and indeed even in some countries today, one has had to be a member of the Roman catholic church or face penalties which have, at various times and places, included imprisonment or death. Forced unity does not mean that all who were members of that denomination were necessary in concert with the denomination or its leadership.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
It is not clear to me how this relates to the discussion. Scripture does not mandate that we be part of a specific denomination, or that any denomination exist at all.Quote:
I also looked at Deut 1:9--18 elders of the faith
Acts 8:9--19 shows that's God's favor is given like it was to Paul, not something that is handed out to anyone
Deut 18:15--22 gift of prophecy
Paul talks about his ministry at Galatians 1:11--24, 2:1--11, Acts 11:19--26 Acts 15:1--12 here he shows that he started independently but that he met with Peter and the others and they were all in agreement.
That is quite different from, say starting up your own sect and expecting everyone else to follow you, and if they don't leaving the church and starting your own.
Please clarify.
Indeed, I would suggest that denominationalism is entirely contrary to scripture. This does not mean that denominations are wrong, but when we make the denomination the master rather than a tool or ministry, that is wrong.
Well you or maybe I seem to be hung up on Paul's title somehow, whether he is an Apostle or the 12th Apostle.
Like it or not there exist denominations today and we both agree this is not what Christ wants or intended
The fact is that there were ONLY 12 true Apostles (FULL STOP), therefore there is no question as to whether he is one of the 12 if he is an Apostle. If he is an Apostle, he is the 12th.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildandblue
Rev 21:14-15
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
NKJV
Agreed. What is important is that we submit ourselves to God and His word and not to any denomination.Quote:
Like it or not there exist denominations today and we both agree this is not what Christ wants or intended
There are hundreds of diffrences but so much more similarities, I know you didn't mean to cause offence but where I am from(was from moved due to violence) belfast northern ireland is ripped apart by this debate.. my opinion is it doesent matter there are so many religeons out there that christians and catholics should be happy that another religeon has so many similarities because so many other people have so many other beliefs.
OK I've been thinking some more and have more to add. First there was catholicism, and due to people not liking some of the abuses by the churhch the great schism happened , orthodox and catholicism, then in germany luther started the papal bull against the pope due to his abuses of power, basically peoples interpretations of the bible are what started christianity that's the diffrence two people read the same book and two difrent meaanings come from the same words there is no way to solve this argument we juts have to agree to disagree
There are additional issues that exacerbated the situation in N. Ireland. Let's not further complicate this discussion by bringing politics and personalities into it. This thread discussion is focused on doctrine.Quote:
Originally Posted by insomniaticmeat
This has more to do with Catholicism using sources outside of the Bible including the Apochrypha, tradition and others as sources of doctrine.Quote:
Originally Posted by insomniaticmeat
As for different people's interpretations, you have a point there and that is specifically why scripture says that no man is to interpret scripture.
OK but my point is, there are so many religeons and beliefs every single person in the world has difrent beliefs.. are muslims wrong? Are jews wrong ? Hindus? Budhists? I'm saying christians and catholics believe so many of the same things why are people hung up on the diffrences? To be honest I hate both of these religeons because of what they have done to my people, and the world.. its been around for 2000 years? What happened to people before they believed in god? The same thin that happens to us now. I have no problems with peopl ewho are religious most of them are decent people a lot nicer than some other people out there but I think it has become a major thing in peoples lives and this is wrong. People believe in religeon because it makes it easier to accept the fact that we are all going to die:) I ghope I haven't offended you and I wish I had your faith in religeon juts things I have seen have made me question things.
That is a different question, for a different thread. Feel free to start a new thread. But just ponder this - since Christianity is mutually exclusive with all these religions, it is impossible for all to be right.Quote:
Originally Posted by insomniaticmeat
Because many of the difference go to heart of what Christianity is.Quote:
I'm saying christians and catholics believe so many of the same things why are people hung up on the diffrences?
And I now understand your point again apologies and thanks for your input .
Do you mean, big differences between what Protestants teach and what the Catholic Church teaches? If so, I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
The Catholic Church teaches the fundamentals of Christianity. No other Church teaches all of those fundamentals.Quote:
Now i realize under different protestant denominations there are plenty of different doctrines but, in general about the fundementals of Christainity, I think there is more common ground then with Catholicism.
Either you don't understand them or they don't understand their faith. We are the original Christians. It is from the Catholic Church that all other Christian churches broke off.Quote:
I know catholics who do not call themselves Christian.. they prefer catholic.
I know Fr_Chuck said we don't pray to Mary. But we do. I think he meant to say that we don't WORSHIP Mary. Which we don't.Quote:
Now that isn't a great big deal but the fact that they pray to Mary,
Note that the Catholic Church is the only one that teaches the BIBLICAL meaning of the word "pray".
Genesis 12:13
Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
Here, Abram says, "I pray thee" to Sara.
Genesis 18:3
And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
Here Abraham says, "I pray thee" to the Lord.
Matthew 10:42
And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
Matthew 10:41
He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward;...
Matthew 10:41
... and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Here we see that the Bible gives us examples of asking for assistance in the name of another.
Jesus gave His Priests the power to forgive sin:Quote:
confess to a priest,
John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
In order for them to forgive sin, one has to confess their sin to them.
1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:Quote:
believe in purgatory,
I don't think any explanation is necessary. It is very straight forward.
That's your misunderstanding. We believe in a conditional assurance of salvation. Which is what Scripture teaches:Quote:
have no assurance in salvation
Philippians 2 12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
Romans 2 6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Not the way you mean it. We know we are saved when God says so. Not when we say so:Quote:
( some don't even know what saved means)
1 Corinthians 4 4 For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge not before the time; until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall every man have praise from God.
It is foreign to us to judge ourselves.
It is very different from Protestant Christianity. But that is because Protestant Christianity has abandoned the teachings of Jesus Christ.Quote:
and the list goes on... i think it is different than Christianity.
We can examine for instance, the idea of Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura contradicts Scripture. Simply speaking, Jesus Christ never wrote one letter of Scripture. But He built a Church (Matt 16:18), gave it the power to teach the nations (Matt 28:20) and established many other Traditions such as Baptism, Eucharist etc. to impart grace on the believers.
I don't take offense. There was a time I didn't believe the Catholic Church either. I'm looking forward to your response.Quote:
I understand that they believe that Jesus is GOD he died and rose again but for the most part.. i see a big difference.
And by the way, PLEASE do not take offense by any of this.. i am just asking. I'm not putting catholicism down... Fr_Chuck disagrees with me and I just thought I'd asked for some opinions.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Your denomination did not exist until 325AD. There were no denominatyions in the first century.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
In the book "Glories of Mary", One of the most endorsed doctors of the Roman catholic church states:Quote:
I know Fr_Chuck said we don't pray to Mary. But we do. I think he meant to say that we don't WORSHIP Mary. Which we don't.
"The Holy Church commands a WORSHIP peculiar to MARY""
He did not pray to Sara, though. That is much different.Quote:
Note that the Catholic Church is the only one that teaches the BIBLICAL meaning of the word "pray".
Genesis 12:13
Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
Here, Abram says, "I pray thee" to Sara.
He was not speaking to his "priests here. Have another look. He was speaking to disciples:Quote:
Jesus gave His Priests the power to forgive sin:
John 20 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
John 20:20
Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
NKJV
A disciple is a follower. Jesus also did away with the organizational priesthood. All believers are priests.
Nope - that is found nowhere in scripture.Quote:
In order for them to forgive sin, one has to confess their sin to them.
This refers to those in Abraham's bosom who were there before the cross.Quote:
1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
Scripture is not conditional in its assurance of salvation.Quote:
That's your misunderstanding. We believe in a conditional assurance of salvation. Which is what Scripture teaches:
John 6:37-38
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
NKJV
1 Thess 1:5-6Quote:
Not the way you mean it. We know we are saved when God says so. Not when we say so:
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV
You keep saying this but never back it up. We are commanded not to go beyond what is written:Quote:
We can examine for instance, the idea of Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura contradicts Scripture.
1 Cor 4:6-7
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
NKJV
So you deny the Holy Spirit inspiration of ALL scripture? Are you saying that if ONLY the Holy Spirit inspired it but Jesus did not physically put pen to paper, that it not as good?Quote:
Simply speaking, Jesus Christ never wrote one letter of Scripture.
Yes, but did not build a denomination.Quote:
But He built a Church (Matt 16:18),
Yes.Quote:
gave it the power to teach the nations (Matt 28:20)
Grace comes from God, not traditions or denominations.Quote:
and established many other Traditions such as Baptism, Eucharist etc. to impart grace on the believers.
De Maria,
Your post was most helpful. I can see now where some of these things catholics believe originated. I had NO idea where they got the idea of purgatory.. now I do. Thank you very much for your input. ( course I disagree with it.. but I appreciate it.)
Tj3,
I know this is off the subject a bit but I'd love to know your thoughts on the verse in Peter where it says Christ preached to the spirits in prison.
This one is well understood. In Luke 16, we find Jesus describing the location known as Hades and Abraham's Bosom.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Luke 16:22-25
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
NKJV
Note that it was only those who were unsaved who were in torment in hell, whereas across from the gap, the godly men such as lazarus were located awaiting the time of the cross when the price for their sins would be paid on the cross. In Abraham's bosom, these men were in a comfortable place awaiting the time when Christ would come and take them to heaven.
When Christ died on the cross and came to release these men to heaven we read:
1 Peter 3:18-21
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV
Because they looked forward to the coming of the Messiah:
Heb 11:13
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
NKJV
They were therefore saved through the blood of Christ, though the blood had not yet been shed. We see nothing more of Abraham's bosom after this point because Christ freed all those who were saved and took them into heaven.
Tj3,
I don't mean to sound dense. But you think that he was preaching to the 8 souls that were saved... or to all of those who were saved from Adam on down.
I totally get and understand the story of Lazarus and the great gulf.. one side of torment the other a place of rest. But I got confused because he said he preached to the spirits in Prison which I assumed was the torment side and I couldn't imagine what he could have preached . It makes sense that he is talking about the ones who are waiting to be taken to heaven. OK... gotcha.
All who died before the cross. The 8 souls refers to the comparison to those who had a place of refuge on Noah's Ark. This is a comparison to the remnant saved on the ark.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Here is an article which may explain it better:Quote:
I totally get and understand the story of Lazarus and the great gulf.. one side of torment the other a place of rest. But I got confused because he said he preached to the spirits in Prison which I assumed was the torment side and I couldn't imagine what he could have preached . It makes sense that he is talking about the ones who are waiting to be taken to heaven. OK... gotcha.
Resurrection Of The Dead - Chapter 10
If you believe that 1 Peter 3:19 is referring to purgatory, then you believe God destroyed the earth with a flood to kill off those who where actually in God's grace and friendship - not the wicked as is commonly believed.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Rob
Wow tj3 post #110 we covered this recently in our bible study group and no one there explained it this well!
Also I think DeMaria explained well if she'd got here say 7 pages ago she could have saved us a lot of trouble!
That's kind of the point TJ. Purgatory is temporary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
All in Purgatory eventually wind up in heaven.
Rev 20
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Note how in the first resurrection, a few of the dead went straight to heaven. But the rest of the dead LIVED NOT AGAIN until the thousand years were finished.
Where did they go? We believe, to Purgatory.
...
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Now the dead are awakened again. And this time they are judged according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Note here the three distinctives. Death, hell and the lake of fire. Death and hell refer to the Hell of the damned, which is true death and hell refers to purgatory. These are tossed into the permanent Hell of damnation. Into eternal fire.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And those who were in Purgatory, were found in the book of life and went to heaven. But those who weren't went to Eternal Fire.
Sincerely,
De Maria
The scriptural description of Abraham's Bosom is completely incompatible with the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory. For example, purgatory is supposed to be place of fire. Abraham's Bosom is the exact opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Scripture says nothing about purification in purgatory. It is our hope and faith in Jesus which purifies.
Abraham's Bosom ceased when Jesus emptied it. Your denomination claims purgatory has people in it today.
Clearly these are not the same place.
De Maria,
Let's look at that text again:
in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days
of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight
persons, were brought safely through the water. (1 Peter 3:19,20 NASB)
Claiming that those who Christ made proclamation to in prison were actually
In God's grace and friendship goes against the very clear reason why God
Brought the flood. God tells us why he did it in Genesis:
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and
that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in
His heart. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the
face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the
sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." (Genesis 6:5-7 NASB)
It's clear from 1 Peter 3:19-20 that the folks that Christ made proclamation to "in prison" were connected to the account of Noah and the Ark. It's also clear why God sent the flood and destroyed those not in the Ark. Therefore to say that those that Christ was making proclamation to in prison were in God's grace and friendship is clearly mistaken.
Rob
That did help and thanks. Are you this good on end time propehcies too? I could pick your brain all day... ha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
What happened to the Our Father? Did the Church remove that prayer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Choux
I have studied it somewhat, and I am always glad to help where I can!Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
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