Tj3,
I do hope that you will continue to remember that and find no need to ask AGAIN.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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Tj3,
I do hope that you will continue to remember that and find no need to ask AGAIN.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred, As long as you don't beat around the bush as you did initially, there is no need to ask again.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Another interesting example of two persons of the trinity is found here:
Gen 19:24-25
24 Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.
NKJV
The word "Lord" in each case is YHWH, so what it says is:
"Then YHWH rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from YHWH out of the heavens."
Two persons, one YHWH.
I'll never understand why people choose to ignore the doctrine of the trinity which is so clearly taught in scripture.
Tj3,
I also find it difficult to understand why so many people who claim to read the bible do not understand what the bible says and indicates about the three persons in one God trinity.
You do a very good job showing the many places the trinity is indicated.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
This is a favorite of mine.. Without a doubt the three in ONEQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
1 John 5: 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE. KJV
sndbay,
That is also a favorite of mine along with the command of Jesus to go out into the world baptizing people in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Both of those verses are good ones for Criado who thinks that there are many more persons in the Godhead.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tj3.
Indeed!
Fred
I am back :) (and sadly for awhile again). It seems I did not missed much.
(Tj)
I am glad this thread is still open. I wish to comment your reply to my last reply but I prefer to be more straight forward since I have limited time.
Assuming for the sake of argument that the Jesus is the speaker, where's the spirit being YHWH?
(Sndbay)
Sadly, this is absent in Greek Manuscript. Assuming for the sake of argument that this does exist in the manuscript, there's no problem at all. The bible did not say they are the SAME.Quote:
1 John 5: 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE. KJV
In fact, there are "n" number of people in bible being called as ONE but are NOT the same entity/being.
Well, let's think about this for a moment. If you spirit is your, then why would God's spirit not be God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
Criado,
I believe that The Spirit was ans is always with Jesus as also the Father.
After all, they ARE a trinity of one being.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
If I have to follow this reasoning, what will make these Spirits not God as well? (Rev. 3:1; 4:5; 5:6)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
BUT, actually, the focal point of my previous argument is not about the Godhood of the Spirit but about the sameness of the Spirit as YHWH.
Again, where can we find the Spirit as YHWH.
I partly agree and mostly disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
There is a difference. Saying that the spirits of "of" God does not mean that these spirits are HIS spirit. However that is what Is 48:16-17 says. Further, Is 48 says that God and His Spirit send Jesus, indicating that they act with equal authority over Jesus (who is also God). These 7 spirits are mentioned another time which you omitted:Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
Rev 1:4-5
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
NKJV
Note that these spirits are before (or in front of) the throne. They do not have the authority of God.
So, do you mean that when bible speaks of "Spirit of God", it has no authority of God while when it says "His Spirit " , then, it has equal authority with Father?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Does equal authority means sameness?Quote:
However that is what Is 48:16-17 says. Further, Is 48 says that God and His Spirit send Jesus, indicating that they act with equal authority over Jesus (who is also God). These 7 spirits are mentioned another time which you omitted:
What makes these spirits without authority of God? Is it because they are not ON the throne?Quote:
Rev 1:4-5
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
NKJV
Note that these spirits are before (or in front of) the throne. They do not have the authority of God.
I'm saying that we need to look at the context and the specific references.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
Not necessarily, but again look at the context. It is not just a spirit with equal authority - it is HIS spirit.Quote:
Does equal authority means sameness?
Already addressed.Quote:
What makes these spirits without authority of God?
Is this Spirit (mentioned in Isaiah) the same as the one sent in the Church as called the Comforter or the Holy Ghost?
Do you mean that the Father and His Spirit is greater than Jesus?Quote:
Further, Is 48 says that God and His Spirit send Jesus, indicating that they act with equal authority over Jesus (who is also God).
Criado,
Yes it is the same Holy Spirit.
None of the trinity is greater than the others.
They (all three) are equally God.
It can not be otherwise for The Holy Spirit emanates from the Father AND THE SON, and The Son is the eternal Word of God made flesh in the form of Jesus Christ.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
No. There are different roles, but all are equal.Quote:
Do you mean that the Father and His Spirit is greater than Jesus?
How come Jesus said that the one sent is not greater than one who sent (John 13:16).
Kindly reconcile with your claim that they are equal. Where can we find that Bible said that They are equal?
The one sent IS the one who is sent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
Maybe you meant:
John 13:16
16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.
NKJV
This does not take away from their equality.
I could write a book on it simply from scripture, and there have been books written addressing this point. But here are a couple of quotes for you:Quote:
Kindly reconcile with your claim that they are equal. Where can we find that Bible said that They are equal?
Heb 1:8
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
NKJV
God calls Jesus God, and jesus claimed equality with God the Father.
Phil 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
NKJV
No; I am positive. It's the one sent is not greater than one who sent (John 13:16).Quote:
The one sent IS the one who is sent.
I don't know what "greater than" means to you. Is it not inequality?Quote:
This does not take away from their equality.
If Father is the SAME as Jesus, how can God be simultaneously not claiming and claiming equality to Himself at the same time?Quote:
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
If Father is the same as Jesus, how can he be simultaneously greater and not greater than Himself?
It doesn't make sense.
Huh? Where did God not claim equality to Himself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
Criado,
Jesus said it... John 10: 30. "I and the Father are one."
That means equal and since The Hply Spirit eminates from the Father and the Son The holy Spirit is equal.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Just to refresh you; you said: God calls Jesus God, and jesus claimed equality with God the Father.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
But since Jesus said "My Father is greater that I" this will appear that God is NOT claiming equality to Himself. This is tantamount of saying: "I am greater than myself; yet I am not greater than myself".
Sorry Fred but I think you are jumping into conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Ah, now I understand what you are getting at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
Unless you are self-employed, you have a boss. A common term to describe your boss is your superior. Does the fact that your boss is "superior" or "greater" than you mean that he is smarter? Stronger? Faster? Better looking? Does it mean that you are in no way his equal?
No, it does not carry that meaning. He may have more experience. He may have administrative skills that you do not have, but you may have far greater capabilities to contribute.
The trinity is made up of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Al;l are equal but have differing roles. In addition, the quote that you used comes from when Jesus came to earth as a man, and as a man had to be perfectly obedient as a man. To be a perfect man, He had to be fully submitted to the Father as any of us are supposed to be.
Phil 2:8
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
NKJV
If he had not submitted Himself to the father, He would not have been a perfect man and would not have been qualified as a the Messiah. But though He was submitted, and in a positional role the Father was greater, He did not cease being equal:
Phil 2:5-7
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
NKJV
This is irrelevant. You are dealing with two persons in your example--the employee and the employer; BUT you are claiming that Jesus and Father is the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
If Jesus is also Father what is to be summitted when He owns Himself?
If Jesus is also Father, I do not believe that is obedience. It is called self-serve as you only do your own desire. Obedience is doing the order of someone whether you like it or not.
When Jesus said " My Father is greater than I", do you agree that Jesus is greater than His Father?
Does EVERYTHING Father knows, Jesus knows?
ERRATUM: I mean do you agree that Father is greater than Jesus?
Jesus and the Father are two persons of the trinity. One God, three persons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
Answered in my last post.Quote:
When Jesus said " My Father is greater than I", do you agree that Jesus is greater than His Father?
BUT in your example, the employer and the employee are not the same entity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Sorry but I would like to hear a more explicit answer otherwise, I will think you're evading. It's just a matter of yes or no. Is it very difficult to type?Quote:
Answered in my last post.
And Again,
When Jesus said " My Father is greater than I", do you agree that FAther is greater than Jesus?
Does EVERYTHING Father knows, Jesus knows?
Yep - and Jesus and the father are two distinct persons within the trinity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
Just asking me to answer the same question again gets you the same answer. If you want additional clarification, ask a question specific to that request.Quote:
Sorry but I would like to hear a more explicit answer otherwise, I will think you're evading. It's just a matter of yes or no. Is it very difficult to type?
I am talking about the irrelevance of your example compare to your claim that Father and Jesus are same. Anyway, just let it be if you can't get what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Clarification request you want? Clarification request you get? This is my clarification question: Is it a yes or a no?Quote:
Just asking me to answer the same question again gets you the same answer. If you want additional clarification, ask a question specific to that request.
I never said that Jesus and the father were the same person. Quite the contrary. I said many times that they are two distinct persons of the trinity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
I don't see how that can be answered yes or no. You seem to be starting with a premise that I have never said nor agree with.Quote:
Clarification request you want? Clarification request you get? This is my clarification question: Is it a yes or a no?
I neither said you said it. I just said "the same". And that is not applicable to your example. Just to quote one line: Does the fact that your boss is "superior" or "greater" than you mean that he is smarter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
If Jesus is also the Father, it would appear: Does the fact that God is "superior" or "greater" than Himself mean that God is smarter?
It makes no sense.
That's why I am asking.Quote:
You seem to be starting with a premise that I have never said nor agree with.
I understand you... caught in between.Quote:
I don't see how that can be answered yes or no. You seem to be starting with a premise that I have never said nor agree with.
You cannot answer yes because you know I will ask you how come God is greater than Himself? And you answer no, you will blatantly defy Christ. This question can be properly answered only if they are separate entity and God.
I guess that's why you neither answering the question: Does EVERYTHING Father knows, Jesus knows?
What makes no sense to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
No, I just don't understand why you are having difficulty on this point.Quote:
I understand you... caught in between.
You cannot answer yes because you know I will ask you how come God is greater than Himself?
Criado,
I must agree with Tj3.
The eternal word of God became man so that he personally could experience what being a human was like.
As such in a human body and acting as a human he saoid that the Father is greater than I as a human.
That does NOT mean that as the divine being of The Word that The Father is greater.
As an eternal divine being The Word id equal to the Father and The Holy Spirit for they all ARE One God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,
You just agreed with Tj3. I'm scared. LOL ;)
I think that you should be. Who knows, maybe next Akoue will agree with me sometime :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
classyT,
Over the years I have agreed with Tom (Tj3) many times anf he with me.
We do have differences and I don't expect that to change soon.
But that's OK. Tom is a friend of Jesus and any friend of Jesus is a friend of mine.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Glad to hear you say that, Fred. It was not that long ago you said that I was going to hell. Even then I offered you my hand in friendship, and I do so once again.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I will never close that door.
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