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-   -   What makes you a mature Christian? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=223496)

  • Jun 29, 2008, 03:04 AM
    Allheart
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Yes Allheart. That may indeed be that way. However : "Oxham's razor" states that almost always the simplest answer to a question is the correct one. Therefore it seems more logical to assume that there is no "God" at all, as that explains the lack of regrowth of limbs perfectly and convincingly ..... All other assumptions require another unsupported suggestion or questionable additional claim.

    "God's ways are inscrutable" is a clincher, not an explanation !

    :rolleyes:

    ·

    Dearest Cred,

    First, psssst a little secret I will share with you... AMHD has more then one of those little faces... they have :p and :D and :) and even :( , would you make my day, and just try a different one. Even if it doesn't apply? It would make me smile. ( okay, squeezing in a little levity, or trying to)

    For me Cred, it is far more logical to know there is God then not. Look at all the beautiful humans that surround you, the smiling happy children. I've said this before, have you ever seen a special needs child? And what do they usaully always where on their face? A big beautiful smile. And that is because they are God's special children, and He watches over them, and places great joy and delight in their heart.

    To attribute all the beauty, all the intelligence, all the love and giving, to nothing, doesn't sound very logical, at least to me.

    Grant you God's love demonstrates a different type of proof then which we are accustomed to. But yet, it still remains to be proof. Such as, the amputee, who is able to survive and strive and so wonderius things, despite their limitation, of which, they begin to
    Accept, that they really are not limited.

    If I never had a hurt, or a pain, how could I ever help or identify with someone who has.
    It's all part of God's loving plan.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 03:42 AM
    Credendovidis
    Apologies for the many quotes... It's Sunday... But I'm off to the beach soon !

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    AMHD has more then one of those little faces.

    Yes, but I prefer :rolleyes: as that shows better the feeling I have for what I reply to.
    But watch the last line : all for you!! LOL

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    ... have you ever seen a special needs child?

    Yes Allheart : almost every day : I am volunteer worker at a center for physical and mental crippled children (I deliberately do not call them "motorized and mental impaired or challenged" because the basic term is crippled).

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    And what do they usaully always where on thier face? A big beautiful smile.

    Yes Allheart. That is because we feed, wash, dress, support, and pamper them. And they feel fine. But most of them have no idea what the heck is happening around them. And "God"? Although they have heard that word, it is beyond their capacity of understanding.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    And that is because they are God's special children, and He watches over them, and places great joy and delight in their heart.

    With all respect Allheart : cr*p : "God" does not do anything. It are my colleges and I who watch over them, and places - where that is possible - great joy and delight in their heart.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    To attribute all the beauty, all the intelligence, all the love and giving, to nothing, doesn't sound very logical, at least to me.

    Neither does it to me. I attribute that instead to the billions of cells and cell structures that existed before me and you, and by their development (evolution) allowed us to grow to what we are today.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    Grant you God's love demonstrates a different type of proof then which we are accustomed to.

    What "God"? Where is it? Where is the objective supporting evidence for it's existence and capacities?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    ... But yet, it still remains to be proof.

    Yes : SUBJECTIVE evidence, i.e. a claim and nothing else.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    Such as, the amputee, who is able to survive and strive and so wonderius things, despite their limitation, of which, they begin to
    accept, that they really are not limited.

    Well... The legs-less amputees I see are limited. And that is why society puts them in centers, as they feel threatened and guilty in some strange way by their presence.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    If I never had a hurt, or a pain, how could I ever help or identify with someone who has. It's all part of God's loving plan.

    I suggest you put your legs on the railroad track, so you soon can experience God's loving plan for amputees for the rest of your life... Cynical ? Yes ! Logial ? Yes, just as well !

    So specially for you Allheart :

    :D :mad: :p :cool: :eek:

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 03:59 AM
    Credendovidis
    Apologies for the many quotes... It's Sunday and I have all the time of the world...

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    AMHD has more then one of those little faces.

    Yes, but I prefer :rolleyes: as that shows better the feeling I have for what I reply to.
    But watch the last line : all for you!! LOL

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    ... have you ever seen a special needs child?

    Yes Allheart : almost every day : I am volunteer worker at a center for physical and mental crippled children (I deliberately do not call them "motorized and mental impaired or challenged") because the basic term is crippled.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    And what do they usaully always where on thier face? A big beautiful smile.

    Yes Allheart. That is because we feed, wash, dress, support, and pamper them. And they feel fine. But most of them have no idea what the heck is happening around them. And "God"? Although they have heard that word, it is beyond their capacity of understanding.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    And that is because they are God's special children, and He watches over them, and places great joy and delight in their heart.

    With all respect Allheart : cr*p : "God" does not do anything. It are my colleges and I who watch over them, and place - where that is possible - great joy and delight in their heart.

    TELL ME : Where was that smile on the orphan and mental crippled children's faces in the centers in Rumania a decade ago ? If you are correct God was there. But there were not enough people there to do the real actual work.
    Another strong hint at the non-existence of "God" as far as I am concerned !


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    To attribute all the beauty, all the intelligence, all the love and giving, to nothing, doesn't sound very logical, at least to me.

    Neither does it to me. I attribute that instead to the billions of cells and cell structures that existed before me and you, and by their development (evolution) allowed us to grow to what we are today.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    Grant you God's love demonstrates a different type of proof then which we are accustomed to.

    What "God"? Where is it? Where is the objective supporting evidence for it's existence and capacities?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    ... But yet, it still remains to be proof.

    Yes : SUBJECTIVE proof, i.e. a claim and nothing else.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    Such as, the amputee, who is able to survive and strive and so wonderius things, despite their limitation, of which, they begin to
    accept, that they really are not limited.

    Well... The legs-less amputees I see are limited. And that is why society puts them in centers, as they feel threatened and guilty in some strange way by their presence.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    If I never had a hurt, or a pain, how could I ever help or identify with someone who has. It's all part of God's loving plan.

    I suggest you put your legs on the railroad track, so you soon can experience God's loving plan for amputees for the rest of your life.
    Cynical ? Yes ! Logial ? Yes, just as well !

    So specially once for you, Allheart :

    :mad: :p :cool: :eek: :o

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 04:15 AM
    Allheart
    Ahhhhhhhhhh I love all the different faces. Thank you Cred :). My prayers were answered! Gotcha, hee hee, just kiddin. But thanks for them, I chuckled.

    Now Cred, take this with the intention that it is given, you see, what a special person that you are... the gifts that you may not know you possess. Not everyone has the capacity, to take care of those beautiful and wonderful children. But you do. Like it or not, that is a very special gift.

    No, the children are unaware of God's prescense, but trust me, He is never unaware of theirs and I promise you, He blesses them every minute of every day. Many of the blessings He does give them, is people like you to lovingly take care of them.

    And you are right, no, I would not lay on a train track, to extend my love, or to be able to know actually what it is like to be an amputee. Very good point and I know that even though God is right there with them, if they did have a choice, they would want their limbs back. I do feel for them, very much.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 04:24 AM
    Credendovidis
    1 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    Ahhhhhhhhhh I love all the different faces. Thank you Cred :)

    Pleasure ! :D

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    ... but trust me, He is never unaware of theirs and I promise you, He blesses them every minute of every day. Many of the blessings He does give them, is people like you to lovingly take care of them.

    With all respect : No, I don't trust you on that. I am sure you mean well, but what you stated is - as far as I am concerned - what you BELIEVE. It lacks the Objective Supporting Evidence (OSE).

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    .... if they did have a choice, they would want their limbs back.

    My point is : why does "God" not restore limbs?.

    ·

    I moved this to here ....

    ·

    Here is a picture out of a Romanian Governmental orphanage made around 1995. Does that show that God watches over them, and places great joy and delight in their heart ?
    That is precisely why I am a Secular Humanist : if we leave it to this (to me seemingly) imaginary entity called "God", you can make pictures like these everywhere.
    People should place the concern and care for each others as a focus in their life. And keep "God" as pastime on Sundays and/or when they have nothing else useful to do...

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 04:30 AM
    Allheart
    Cred,

    That is heartbreaking more then words can say, but that picture says it all. And far too many children to suffer.

    And you are more then right, that we need to focus on helping each other and taking care of each other.

    It is hugely my belief, when ones like yourself and the many other ones, who do make a difference in the special children's lives, when you do have days, where you think to yourself, why is this happening? How can I go on caring for this children who suffer so much? When the human mind and heart has taken on the tragedy it can ingest, what do you think makes you or anyone else, get right back to it the next day? I believe it is God's love and strength that keeps these good people going.

    Look at Mother Theresa. What do you think inspired, or who do you think inspired all the great, unselifsh and loving acts and deeds she performed?

    God enters into our hearts, so that we are able to keep going, keep giving even when we think we can give no more.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 04:40 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    Cred, That is heartbreaking more then words can say, but that picture says it all. And far too many children to suffer.

    Let's keep to the subject...

    Why does "God" not restore amputated limbs?
    Specially when "God" is claimed to do so many wonders daily...

    Could all these wonders not be just "luck"?
    Could it be that "God" just does not exist or that "God" does not care about you, me , or anyone else?
    I know that may sound terrible to you, but still it is a fair question to ask !

    For sure it are perfect reasons limbs are never restored...

    :(

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 04:45 AM
    Allheart
    Cred,

    You would rather hang your hat on "luck" then faith? Luck is hard to prove as well, isn't it?

    And I honestly don't know why God does not restore the lost limbs. I wish that He would, but His plan for all is in His loving hands and I know, trust and believe in His plan.

    This life is only temporary, and those limbs one day will actually be restored, hurts, pains, trauma and tradegedy will one day be all removed and be replaced with great peace.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 06:05 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    Cred, You would rather hang your hat on "luck" then faith? Luck is hard to prove as well, isn't it?

    No, not on "luck". But I do hang my hat on my own capacities, on my own responsibilities, on my own tolerance for those who had less "luck" than I had in life, and on my feelings of concern and need of others for care. Only that way we can reach here on earth what theists hope to get after they are dead : peace !

    I do not need a deity that has never been objectively proved to exist. As a Secular Humanist I care for - specially - the poorest and the weakest under us mortal humans.
    Because it is sure THAT many such people exist, and that they require our support.
    And while no deity seems to exist, although it is claimed to have gigantic capacities but has never shown itself in an objective way to humanity, I am very skeptic to it's existence.

    If only all these theists were less busy trying to improve their odds on a "good" chance for the hereafter, and more busy by spreading the word in an indirect way (by taking better care of their social responsibilities)... How much better this world would be...

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    And I honestly don't know why God does not restore the lost limbs. I wish that He would, but His plan for all is in His loving hands and I know, trust and believe in His plan.

    And you never ask yourself really why amputees NEVER restore limbs, but you believe all these wild claims on "God's" mysterious answering of other people's prayers - all but regrowing amputated limbs? That does not ever plants a little seed of doubt in your mind? Really ?

    :)

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 06:28 AM
    JoeCanada76
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
    Mature Christian, I do not believe any of us are Mature Christians. I would say Maturing Christians, because as believers we are constantly growing and learning. So is it fair to say that some believers are more mature then others. We are told not to judge one another,, but I see that all the time. Saturday night I was at a catholic service and one lady before service started just came out of confession, sat down in the pew and this other lady sat beside her. They were gossiping about other people the whole service. Talking through the whole thing. Judging others. I could not believe it. I still extended my hand out in piece but am I being judgemental towards them? I am not perfect, no one is. We all fall short. So I guess we need to lift each other up. No matter what our faults may be. Love is to truly be there for one another. Continually growing and learning and maturing, but there is no such thing as a mature Christian in my personal opinion.

    Cred, You have told Allheart to stick to the original question. Well I think you should follow your own advice. What was the original question of the OP, before you HIJACKED THE THREAD? Please get back to the original post. Thank you. Can you answer what makes a mature Christian? What you think a mature Christian is?
  • Jun 29, 2008, 06:28 AM
    JoeCanada76
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wildandblue
    Can anybody give advice on what makes you a mature Christian? Maybe share some examples. I'm considering St. Paul's advice to become mature in your faith, to not need milk like a babe. I mean so many I know are constantly going over the same old themes, Garden of Eden, Moses' life story, Noah and the Ark. Constantly rehashing every little piece of Scripture (should THIS be taken literally??) like their life depended on it. Or those I know that talk behind my back or think they can't play certain songs or use certain bad words around me. I mean, get real. Is it reaching outside your self, truly caring about other people whether they do in return? I will consider any answers you've got.

    Here is a reminder.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 06:38 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
    Cred, You have told Allheart to stick to the original question.

    Dear Joe : No, I did not told her that : I told her to keep to the subject we were at that moment discussing , and that for sure is related to the original question : how can anybody ever becomes a "mature" Christian, when there is no supporting reason for being a Christian in the first place, and so many reasons to drop Christianity completely as religion?

    If you want posts to keep on their narrow Christian-only base, they should be posted in Religion - Christianity, and not here.

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 06:42 AM
    N0help4u
    Do you consider your wife a mature Christian Cred??
  • Jun 29, 2008, 06:44 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jesushelper76
    The Greatest blessing in my World, Is my Wife and my Beautiful son.
    Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.
    Give not over thy soul to sorrow; and afflict not thyself in thy own counsel. Gladness of heart is the life of man and the joyfulness of man is length of days.

    Joe, isn't it funny that I agree with most of that?
    Only I do not call it blessing, but good fortune, and that I have 2 daughters, 1 son, and 6 grandchildren.
    All that is a little questionable is the suggested-to-exist "soul". Call it "thinking" and I'll buy it !

    :)

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 06:50 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    Do you consider your wife a mature Christian Cred?????

    The only "mature" item in my life is the cheese I like.
    But my wife is for sure a deeply believing and serious Christian, who does not only babble about "the word", but spreads it too, in both word and deed, N0help4u ! Specially in deeds ! And that is why I respect her views above that of many others, who talk about that, but do in reality very little with it.

    :)

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 06:55 AM
    N0help4u
    Well seeing we are stuck on the computer it does make it rather hard for us to live up to your wife in your eyes cause you see her living it everyday but that doesn't mean many of us do not live in deed by the things we do for others and so forth.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 07:03 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    well seeing we are stuck on the computer it does make it rather hard for us to live up to your wife in your eyes cause you see her living it everyday but that doesn't mean many of us do not live in deed by the things we do for others and so forth.

    You are not in competition with my wife's religious values or validity.
    If what you state is true, why do you post so many empty words here, and instead tell people on HOW and WHY you implement the Christian Mission into your and other people's lives?

    The proof is not in the babble cake, but in the custard reality of your actions...

    Oh... I know, I know : that is not what you wanted to see here...

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 07:13 AM
    N0help4u
    Like you said I and others are not in competition so I do not have to prove anything.
    Not what I wanted to see here..
    Your words not mine and

    I like how you refer to stuff as empty words when you don't know what else to say.

    Tell people on HOW and WHY you implement the Christian Mission into your and other people's lives?
    Good question for another post
    I might even enjoy replying to it!!

    I do believe I did reply to a couple similar questions here before.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 07:22 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N0help4u
    I do believe I did reply to a couple similar questions here before.

    Let me say it this way, N0help4u : My wife implements her Christian values in her life in word and deed.
    And I implement my Secular Humanistic values in my life also in word and deed.

    If all theists would do the same, we would have heaven here on earth.
    So why don't we have heaven here? Because most people only TALK about it, and than continue mainly with their own interests. They do not "spread their word".

    Think about that, and later to day I will follow up here. The beach is waiting with lot's of sunshine and a nice breeze from sea. Adios!

    :)

    ·
  • Jun 29, 2008, 07:25 AM
    N0help4u
    I hear you. I am always saying too many people CHRISTIAN OR NON are too stuck in their rut and very complacent. How many times have I said people go to work, go home, run to Wal Mart, run home, cook and then sit in front of the TV and when anything is brought up they say it doesn't affect them so they do not care.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 07:39 AM
    Allheart
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    No, not on "luck". But I do hang my hat on my own capacities, on my own responsibilities, on my own tolerance for those who had less "luck" than I had in life, and on my feelings of concern and need of others for care. Only that way we can reach here on earth what theists hope to get after they are dead : peace !

    I do not need a deity that has never been objectively proved to exist. As a Secular Humanist I care for - specially - the poorest and the weakest under us mortal humans.
    Because it is sure THAT many such people exist, and that they require our support.
    And while no deity seems to exist, although it is claimed to have gigantic capacities but has never shown itself in an objective way to humanity, I am very skeptic to it's existence.

    If only all these theists were less busy trying to improve their odds on a "good" chance for the hereafter, and more busy by spreading the word in an indirect way (by taking better care of their social responsibilities) ... How much better this world would be ...


    And you never ask yourself really why amputees NEVER restore limbs, but you believe all these wild claims on "God's" mysterious answering of other people's prayers - all but regrowing amputated limbs? That does not ever plants a little seed of doubt in your mind? Really ?

    :)

    ·


    Hi Cred,

    My hand to heart, I have never in my 45 years questioned God, His love, His mercy, and I never ever even uttered "Why, God". I mostly say, "God, please help me and others through this".

    When my Father-in-law, who has passed, who I miss with all my heart, who I love with all my soul, became an amputee, I never questioned God, but I did pray so hard, to help us all through it. And Cred, He did. He brought my Father-in-law home, to a place of peace and had the most peaceful and loving passing. I am so grateful to God for that.

    What does my heart so good, is that you have a beautiful loving wife, who does believe in words and in actions. Now Cred, I am going to be hyprocrital here, and apologize in advance because I could never even consider, for one second, to contemplate, hmmm maybe God doesn't exsist. I'm sorry, I just couldn't do that. It would be like you having the most loving Father, who was always there for you, held your little hand through all your scrapes, and one day you approach him and ask, "Are you really my father?". So, Cred, I couldn't ever consider it.

    And here is where I become hyprocrital, did you ever, even for a second, think, that maybe, just maybe, God bless you with your beautiful wife, not only to bring you great happiness, but through her, in His heart, He is hoping her love for you and your love for her, can bring you to God's love?

    Our Father, tries so many loving ways to bring us to Him, but if we keep hanging up the phone on Him, there will be a day, He stops calling.

    I hope you take all of this in the loving way it is truly meant.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 11:29 AM
    wildandblue
    I don't mind him hanging around my thread. He obviously wants something. Like he says he's discriminated against having no forum of his own. And if he didn't hang around there'd be no opportunity to witness to him. Although from what other members have said he's been witnessed to by Bushg and Maria for over 8 years, so don't hold your breath. I'd like to say that I was once bitten by a brown recluse spider, this spider bite causes gangrene and the tip of my finger turned black and fell off. But it grew back. Apparently a finger cut above the last joint will do this too. So there may be an answer out there for regenerating whole limbs some day in stem cell research or some other place. Like at one time we knew nothing about CPR or open heart surgery (or surgery of any kind)I'd like to know how when a caterpillar turns into a butterfly, how does he do that, and where do all his legs go?So if a little butterfly can grow wings where he had none before, there is something at work there that we don't yet understand.
  • Jun 29, 2008, 05:02 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wildandblue
    I don't mind him hanging around my thread. He obviously wants something.

    The idea here is to discuss : that is why it is called : Religious Discussions.
    And I do not care if you mind or not. That is totally irrelevant.
    I react on the posts made here, and I provide my opinion within the greater framework of the question and all related follow-up and background information.

    All I want is to discuss here on equal terms, and with full freedom of expression.
    Most of what I have seen so far are frustrated and angered Christians who can't accept that this is NOT some second board of Christianity where their views are beyond any scrutiny.

    :rolleyes:

    ·
  • Jun 30, 2008, 12:39 AM
    Allheart
    Cred, I am actually glad that you are here. You never said you don't believe, just that you want proof.

    Stick around and hopefully you will see proof, but not in the way we normally obtain it.
  • Jun 30, 2008, 02:39 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    Cred, I am actually glad that you are here. You never said you don't believe, just that you want proof.

    As convinced Secular Humanist I do not expect ever to believe in a religious world view. If it were a live or die situation I would become a Buddhist. Because they do not demand that one accepts any supra-natural define entity / deity.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    Stick around and hopefully you will see proof, but not in the way we normally obtain it.

    Yes for sure, I doubt that, If so it should be! :)
    To "see" proof it has to exist, and I sincerely doubt that !

    ;)

    ·
  • Jun 30, 2008, 08:45 AM
    wildandblue
    Well as Jesus said, this generation seeks a sign, but no sign shall be given it, except the sign of Jonah. People in Jesus' day were constantly flocking to him to cure them of every sort of problem. They were missing the point, that this body is passing away, whether it is perfect or not. If He didn't cure them, they didn't want to believe. What good would it do them to be perfectly healthy and wonderfully dressed, etc if they were on the road to destruction? Like He said, better to get to heaven with one good eye than to be cast into Gehenna with two good ones.
  • Jun 30, 2008, 12:15 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wildandblue
    Like He said, better to get to heaven with one good eye than to be cast into Gehenna with two good ones.

    So.. . And that makes you a mature Christian ?

    :D :D :D :D :D

    ·
  • Jul 1, 2008, 10:49 AM
    wildandblue
    I don't understand this question. It's not about me, I'm quoting part of the Bible there, and if I was a mature Christian I would hardly be asking questions about how to become one. I'm thinking St. Paul had maturity in mind as some have responded here, living your faith, not just constantly debating about ideas. The Israelites in the wilderness were fed with manna. But they complained that they had to go out and pick it up! Like they thought they should just stand there like a baby bird with it's mouth open and the food would drop in or something. So we must mature, not constantly need milk like a helpless babe.
  • Jul 1, 2008, 04:56 PM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    That is not true and honest : most of your posts are full of twisting words, sentences, and complete meanings of what was posted earlier.

    Just because you say it doesn't make it true Credendo. Prove it. Show where I twisted anyone's words.

    Quote:

    lso your posts do not reflect the goal and intention of the Christian mission : "go forth and spread the word" (not only in your words, but specially in your attitude and deeds). You and your attitude on this board have already done more harm to Christianity than an army of angry atheists ever could achieve - if they wanted to do so.
    Lol!!

    I have faith in God. Not in my words. I am not surprised that you and a great many here. Even many believers get upset by my messages. They also get upset at the Master's messge.

    John 15 18 If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you.


    You and those like you are only upset because I follow Christ and not you.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Jul 1, 2008, 05:15 PM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
    Yes, I would expect you to disregard the teaching of both Jesus and St. Peter and return insults for insults.

    Oh, you're just upset because I always prove you wrong. The fact is that you and others like you feel that Christians should be pushovers who don't talk back. But that isn't the case. Neither Jesus nor St. Peter were such.

    Although Scripture says we should not render evil for evil, that has nothing to do with debate. That has to do with persecution and affliction. This is the basis of the Just War doctrine. When we are attacked, we defend ourselves, and when God grants us victory, we don't abuse those who lost. We treat them with as much dignity as possible under the circumstances.

    In debate, we are called to:

    2 Tim 4: 1 I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: 2 Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. 3 For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: 4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. 5 But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.

    Of course, if I find that the individual with whom I'm speaking isn't worth my effort, I'm called to:

    2 Tim 3:1 Know also this, that, in the last days, shall come dangerous times. 2 Men shall be lovers of themselves, covetous, haughty, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, wicked, 3 Without affection, without peace, slanderers, incontinent, unmerciful, without kindness, 4 Traitors, stubborn, puffed up, and lovers of pleasures more than of God: 5 Having an appearance indeed of godliness, but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid.

    So, if you ever notice that I'm avoiding a discussion with you, you'll know why.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Jul 1, 2008, 05:50 PM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    DeMaria,

    This is exactly what I was trying to communicate to you. How does the above demonstrate a loving follower of Christ.

    Easily. I emulate Jesus Christ as closely as possible. You seem to be under the false impression that Jesus Christ never issued a harsh word. You are wrong. Jesus Christ frequently spoke harshly to many:

    Read this:
    Douay-Rheims Bible, Gospel According to Saint Matthew Chapter 23

    Where did you get the impression that Jesus would remain silent in the presence of sin? Do you believe that Jesus' did not admonish the sinners when He dined with them?

    Have you not heard:
    2 Timothy 1 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power, and of love, and of sobriety. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but labour with the gospel, according to the power of God, 9 Who hath delivered us and called us by his holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the times of the world. 10 But is now made manifest by the illumination of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath destroyed death, and hath brought to light life and incorruption by the gospel:

    This is how the Apostles lived, this is how the Saints lived. They didn't worry about hurting a few people's feelings if it might save their souls.

    Quote:

    Any good that may be in your messages, is lost with this type of thinking.
    That's not for you to judge. I just plant seeds. It is God who waters. Besides, I've had many who thank me for the message I bring.

    Quote:

    I did try to respond to your last PM, but when I hit send, it blinked away. I took it as the will of God. I truly did.
    That's fine, but then why did you write this?

    Quote:

    There should be no harshness amongst those who believe or even amongst those who don't believe.
    Where did you learn that?

    1 Corinthians 4 14 I write not these things to confound you; but I admonish you as my dearest children.

    Now, I've tried to admonish you that you seem to be approving of the sin of homosexuality. But instead you've taken that as an insult. That is your problem.

    Again, as Scripture says:
    Ez 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have made thee a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore thou shalt hear the word from my mouth, and shalt tell it them from me. 8 When I say to the wicked: O wicked man, thou shalt surely die: if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked man from his way: that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand. 9 But if thou tell the wicked man, that he may be converted from his ways, and he be not converted from his way: he shall die in his iniquity: but thou hast delivered thy soul. 10 Thou therefore, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: Thus you have spoken, saying: Our iniquities, and our sins are upon us, and we pine away in them: how then can we live?

    Oh I know what you'll say. "Now he's calling me wicked!" That's fine, if you want to take the admonition in that manner, I've done my duty by you. To repeat, in case you've forgotten the message, I've informed you that it is not love to permit people to believe that they may remain in their sin and God will love them still.

    Quote:

    You may think I trade the praise of man for being in favor in God's eyes, but as I told you in my PM back to you, that could not be further from the truth. In life, my thoughts, heart, and viewpoints, usually make me stand alone and it's where I choose to stay, for I would not change what I believe in my heart for anyone's approval, except Gods.
    If that be so then believe when I tell you that God wants you to help your brethren shed their sin:

    James 5 19 My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: I mean this with all sincerity, I wish you great joy and pray that love touches your heart and surrounds you. 20 He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

    Quote:

    May you see the good in people as well as areas that may need improvement and share God's word and love, in a way that will bring others to Him.
    Thank you. I pray the same for you.

    Quote:

    And may you no longer judge me wrongly and may I not do the same of you.
    I don't judge you. I judge your words. As I said in my pm, your message seemed to approve of the sin of homosexuality.

    You said, and I quote:
    Quote:

    For those of you, who have never been hurt by other's comments - Judge the gay community.

    For those of you, who have never felt different, been teased or ridiculed for being different - Point your finger at the gay community and tell them how horrible they are.

    For those of you who have never felt overweight, underweight, too tall, too small - Stand up and let your negative voice and opinions be heard in reference to the Gay community.


    For those of you, who never felt heartache from not being able to be with the one you love, whose hearts have never been broken - Lash out at the gay community for wanting to love.

    But for all of those who know what it feels like to be different, to have your feelings hurt, to feel unloved and wanted by so many - remember that pain - and embrace all that share that pain - black, white, gay, bi, straight, tall, short - your brothers and sisters.

    Don't try and stand in God's shoes - they will never fit any of us.
    Apparently, you say that because you think I'm too harsh in saying that homosexuality is a mortal sin that will lead people to hell if they persist in it.

    I don't believe its harsh at all. I believe it is the truth.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Jul 1, 2008, 07:41 PM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    Oh, you're just upset because I always prove you wrong.

    The only thing you've proved is that you have a chip on your shoulder.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    The fact is that you and others like you feel that Christians should be pushovers who don't talk back.

    I don't "feel that Christians should be" any particular way, and I know that each one interprets Jesus' teachings for himself, just as you have demonstrated. But I will say that I haven't found your degree of belligerence to be typical of "Christians" generally. You're in a class by yourself.

    Then again, maybe my friendly and helpful Christian neighbors would be just as argumentative and insulting as you are if they had the anonymity of the internet to hide behind, who knows?
    ...

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    So, if you ever notice that I'm avoiding a discussion with you, you'll know why.

    I would welcome that, should it ever happen, no matter why.
  • Jul 1, 2008, 08:19 PM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
    The only thing you've proved is that you have a chip on your shoulder.

    No, no. I've proved that I knock chips off anti-Christian shoulders. But I have no chip on mine.

    Quote:

    I don't "feel that Christians should be" any particular way, and I know that each one interprets Jesus' teachings for himself, just as you have demonstrated.
    Actually, no. I interpret Scripture according to the Spirit in which it was written, the culture and times in which it was written and according to Church Tradition. Just as the Church teaches.

    It is you who interprets Scripture according to your particular way. Right now, you are simply using Scripture to attempt to prove me wrong. But you are not a person who cares one whit about Scripture, therefore you know nothing about it.

    If you had any knowledge of Scripture, you might be able to discuss that intelligently. But instead you just make uninformed accusations. That is your way. You think because you say so, it must be true. But it isn't.

    Quote:

    But I will say that I haven't found your degree of belligerence to be typical of "Christians" generally. You're in a class by yourself.
    Belligerence?
    Hostile and inclined to be aggressive.
    Library.thinkquest.org/CR0211900/call/vocabulary_for_chapter_ii.htm

    You believe that a person who believes in defending himself is hostile and aggressive. How do you feel about those who want to insult me?

    Do you understand the concept of "Justice"?

    Justice is a collective name which can be divided into two broad perspectives. Just behavior; a concern for genuine respect and treatment, which is to be regarded as fair and equal.. .
    En.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice

    Or do you believe that nonChristians can insult Christians with impunity? Please tell me, why am I unjust if I defend myself from insult and your antiChristian brethren are not unjust when they insult me and other Christians?

    Quote:

    Then again, maybe my friendly and helpful Christian neighbors would be just as argumentative and insulting as you are if they had the anonymity of the internet to hide behind, who knows?
    There you go with veiled insults of all Christians.

    And maybe my friendly nonChristian neighbors would be just as insulting and aggressive if they had the anonymity of the internet to hide as well.

    So what's the point? Are you belligerent towards me and other Christians because you hide behind the internet?

    Quote:

    I would welcome that, should it ever happen, no matter why.
    That's too bad. So far you haven't crossed that line. And as long as I can use your messages to pass on Christian teaching to those who may want to learn, I reserve the right to do so.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Jul 2, 2008, 12:20 AM
    Allheart
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    No, no. I've proved that I knock chips off anti-Christian shoulders. But I have no chip on mine.



    Actually, no. I interpret Scripture according to the Spirit in which it was written, the culture and times in which it was written and according to Church Tradition. Just as the Church teaches.

    It is you who interprets Scripture according to your particular way. Right now, you are simply using Scripture to attempt to prove me wrong. But you are not a person who cares one whit about Scripture, therefore you know nothing about it.

    If you had any knowledge of Scripture, you might be able to discuss that intelligently. But instead you just make uninformed accusations. That is your way. You think because you say so, it must be true. But it isn't.



    Belligerence?
    Hostile and inclined to be aggressive.
    library.thinkquest.org/CR0211900/call/vocabulary_for_chapter_ii.htm

    You believe that a person who believes in defending himself is hostile and aggressive. How do you feel about those who want to insult me?

    Do you understand the concept of "Justice"?

    Justice is a collective name which can be divided into two broad perspectives. Just behavior; a concern for genuine respect and treatment, which is to be regarded as fair and equal. ...
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice

    Or do you believe that nonChristians can insult Christians with impunity? Please tell me, why am I unjust if I defend myself from insult and your antiChristian brethren are not unjust when they insult me and other Christians?



    There you go with veiled insults of all Christians.

    And maybe my friendly nonChristian neighbors would be just as insulting and aggressive if they had the anonymity of the internet to hide as well.

    So whats the point? Are you belligerent towards me and other Christians because you hide behind the internet?



    Thats too bad. So far you haven't crossed that line. And as long as I can use your messages to pass on Christian teaching to those who may want to learn, I reserve the right to do so.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria


    De Maria,

    I honestly was wondering and praying that you were all right as I have not seen you around. I am glad to see you are okay.

    But you still get me wrong and I will just share with you that I have God's love in my heart
    And I am not agreeing with you or disagreeing, just wishing you peace.
  • Jul 2, 2008, 04:39 AM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    Belligerence?
    Hostile and inclined to be aggressive.

    You believe that a person who believes in defending himself is hostile and aggressive.

    I'm not generalizing, I'm talking about you, specifically, as an individual. Based on your posts on this site, I'd say "Hostile and inclined to be aggressive" is a pretty accurate description.

    Quote:

    How do you feel about those who want to insult me?
    I feel that they also fall short of the ideals embodied in the teachings of Jesus and St. Peter, but I sympathize with their temptation.
    Quote:

    And as long as I can use your messages to pass on Christian teaching to those who may want to learn, I reserve the right to do so.
    Glad I could be of help.
  • Jul 2, 2008, 06:49 AM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
    I'm not generalizing, I'm talking about you, specifically, as an individual.

    I understand that you are referring to me.

    Quote:

    Based on your posts on this site, I'd say "Hostile and inclined to be aggressive" is a pretty accurate description.
    Show me one of my posts which fits that description which was not in response to a poster who was hostile and aggressive towards Christians or towards me.

    Quote:

    I feel that they also fall short of the ideals embodied in the teachings of Jesus and St. Peter, but I sympathize with their temptation.
    You don't strike me as person who has ever studied the teachings of Jesus Christ. Much less do you strike me as one who understands their teachings. But that is only to be expected:

    Hebrews 11 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him.

    Without faith in God, you will not understand the Scriptures.

    Quote:

    Glad I could be of help.
    You're welcome.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Jul 2, 2008, 11:07 AM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Allheart
    De Maria,

    I honestly was wondering and praying that you were all right as I have not seen you around. I am glad to see you are okay.

    I'm fine. Thanks for the concern. FYI, I am usually here one week on and one week off. I'll be leaving for another week soon.

    Quote:

    But you still get me wrong
    Get you wrong? Do you mean that I misunderstood what you said? Why not clarify it then, just for the record?

    Quote:

    and I will just share with you that I have God's love in my heart and I am not agreeing with you or disagreeing, just wishing you peace.
    Peace to you as well Allheart,

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Jul 2, 2008, 11:11 AM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    You don't strike me as person who has ever studied the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    But I have, and I do.
    Quote:

    Much less do you strike me as one who understands their teachings.
    I understand them quite differently than you do, that much is clear.
  • Jul 2, 2008, 11:16 AM
    wildandblue
    If you all could please avoid quoting and requoting each other, it would make this question much shorter and easier to read, especially for people who are interested in the original question and answering it. Maybe you could just use each other's names, like Dear So and So, instead of a few hundred lines of quoted text. Or just use your PM feature.
  • Jul 2, 2008, 11:25 AM
    N0help4u
    ... or pick a point and make a new post.

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