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-   -   How can we prove the Bible is factual (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=196528)

  • Apr 4, 2008, 02:51 PM
    Onan
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
    I am sorry you can not just accept the truth of the bible, you don't have to, but the proofs are there, you are merely to blind with some dislike of Christianity to look and see it.

    What is it you have against Christinity, why do you wish to attack it ?

    Nothing against christianity at all. The OT isn't without it's faults so Judaism isn't so accurate either. The creation and flood stories in the OT were borrowed from older Babylonian and Sumerian stories. I think what's hard for people to understand is where these stories came from in the first place. People back then didn't know why there was storms, why volcanos erupted, why earthquakes happened, why there were famines etc etc. The best they could come up with was it was the work of angry Gods. We as humans know better than this now. We as humans know that dancing around a fire will not make it rain.

    Quote:

    Sorry Onan, you still haven't managed to convince me that the bible is nothing more than a drawn-out novel.
    Oh there is more, a lot more. My fingers want a break though. My Christian mother knows all of this and accepts most of it, but doesn't care.
  • Apr 4, 2008, 03:26 PM
    Moparbyfar
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Onan
    My Christian mother knows all of this and accepts most of it, but doesn't care.

    Then I guess she's not a true christian then, because faith and trust in our creator helps us to decipher the obvious truth from that which many TRY to prove as fiction with "philosophies and empty deceptions." (Col 2:8)
    I know you scoff at the idea but God originally intended us to follow his guidelines for life because we are simply not designed to "direct our own step" (Jer 10:23). No! I don't mean we were meant to be robots and not use our own minds, but by going beyond the boundaries He has given us (and pretty decent boundaries really) we do damage to ourselves and our relationship with Him. Do you not give your children rules and boundaries to keep them safe? Some today prefer to have no limits though as did Adam and Eve... oh hang on, they never existed right?
    I am curious, how did you think we all got here if you don't take the evolution way either? :confused:
  • Apr 4, 2008, 04:03 PM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rodandy12
    3. Questioning you is either evil or longing to know the real truth?

    I know, this dropped my jaw too. The man never ceases to amaze. My all time favorite is this one:
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
    I don't believe dinosaurs really existed, but the evidence of them is merley a trick of satan to cause people to fall away from the real truth.

  • Apr 4, 2008, 06:18 PM
    Galveston1
    The Bible proves and explains itself. Some folks are just too intellectually dishonest or lazy to try to find out what it is all about.
  • Apr 4, 2008, 07:34 PM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Galveston1
    The Bible proves and explains itself. Some folks are just too intellectually dishonest or lazy to try to find out what it is all about.

    And some folks are sincere and diligent, find out what it is all about and decide it isn't for them.
  • Apr 5, 2008, 01:01 AM
    Onan
    Quote:

    Then I guess she's not a true christian then,
    She is a true Christian because she follows blindly even knowing without doubt there is reason to believe not everything in the Bible is true. Blind faith is exactly what you need to believe in religion. Faith is the #1 requriement for christianity(any religion). To know the truth about something and still believe something else makes her the perfect Christian.

    Quote:

    because faith and trust in our creator helps us to decipher the obvious truth from that which many TRY to prove as fiction with "philosophies and empty deceptions."
    Obvious truth?? I believe I just showed if someone was being diceitful, it was Matthew. I have no need to make things up, I'm not starting a new religion. I read everything available to me and make up my own mind if it should be believed or not. There was many other gosples written that did not make the cut into the Christian Bible. Have you ever asked yourself why this was? Have you ever read or read about the other gosples? Have you ever wondered why every religion claim they are the right religion and their God is the only God? Christianity does not stand alone. You ask a Jew and he will tell you and even show you that his religion is the one and only true religion and Muslims can do the very same thing. Does that make them right? Out of hundreds and even thousands of Gods throughout history, I believe in one less than you and that makes me a deciever? Me saying there was no Jesus is no different than a christian saying there was no Mithra, or any other God or God men.

    Quote:

    I am curious, how did you think we all got here if you don't take the evolution way either?
    I do believe in evolution. I don't quite believe everything that's understood about it right now but evolution is 100% fact. Anyone who says differently is living in denial. I don't believe that is reason to discount a creator though, which is why you will never see me argue whether there is a God. Just because I debate whether Jesus was a God does not mean I am debating whether there is a God at all. I have said before I am not a scientist, and science bores the hell out of me.

    Quote:

    Some folks are just too intellectually dishonest or lazy to try to find out what it is all about.
    I agree, people should read and find out what it's all about. It takes a lot of reading and research to find out the truth. Sometimes it's not easy if you was taught something else your whole life. Do you think I know the things I know without studying?

    People believe what they believe, and that's OK. I just think the truth is much more interesting.
  • Apr 5, 2008, 01:05 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Galveston1
    The Bible proves and explains itself. Some folks are just too intellectually dishonest or lazy to try to find out what it is all about.

    As I stated before : SOME points in the Bible may be correct. But if one (or more people together) writes a book full of wild claims, some of these claims will also turn out to be correct. Forecasting is based on that! And always only those claims that came true are remembered.

    The question is - specially within this topic : can the Bible as a book in it's entirety be proved factual. The answer to that is clearly NO.

    The Evolution Theory can not be proved to be 100% correct based on objective supported evidence. But with the overall majority of the Theory being supported that way, it is at least scientifically accepted as a reality.

    The Bible can not be proved to be 100% correct neither based on objective supportive evidence. Hardly a couple of percent of it's stories can be supported from factual historical data and findings.
    .
    So the Bible can not be proved to be factual. And that has nothing to do with intellectually dishonesty or laziness.
    Period.
    :rolleyes:
  • Apr 5, 2008, 05:53 AM
    Moparbyfar
    [QUOTE=Onan] she follows blindly even knowing without doubt there is reason to believe not everything in the Bible is true.[Quote]

    My point exactly. If anyone thinks there is a reason to doubt God's Word then the faith and accurate knowledge of that one, attainable through the bible, is obviously weak.
    A true christian would study the Word deeper to prove to THEMSELVES that it is the truth, to keep testing to "make sure of all things" (1 Thess 5:21) and not just take anothers word for it.
    Yes, yes, you keep saying that EVIDENCE proves otherwise, but you have NEVER in the whole time of posting comments even slightly swayed my faith, due to my studying deeply Gods thoughts on everything and putting complete trust in Him, not so called evidence which steers well away from the whole theme of the bible which is to promote God's kingdom as the only hope for mankind.
    You may call it blindness or stupidity, but I simply call it integrity.

    [Quote]
    Out of hundreds and even thousands of Gods throughout history, I believe in one less than you and that makes me a deciever? Me saying there was no Jesus is no different than a christian saying there was no Mithra, or any other God or God men.[Quote]

    The most important God to remember here is the one who created us because only HE has the means to reverse all the mistakes that imperfect man has made through the thousands of years. If you have studied so many versions of the bible I'm sure you can tell me the name of that one and how he proposes to do this. I think you'll find that His name was neither Allah nor Mithra nor Vishnu nor Amun nor Hashem. It seems that not many religious faiths - even those claiming to be christian, can truthfully say they "call on His Name to be saved." (Rom 10:13) Sure they use Jesus name in worship but as you and I know full well, this is not God Almighty.

    [Quote] it takes a lot of reading and research to find out the truth, Sometimes its not easy if you were taught something else your whole life. I think the truth is much more interesting. [Quote]

    Only after years of being away from all religion did I realise Gods Word is in fact a protection not a restriction as mankind are digging themselves deeper and deeper into a hole of complete hopelessness.
    Boy did it take some serious research and meditation on Gods Word (and still does) for me to find the truth... which yes quite rightly is VERY VERY interesting, but more than that it helps me see that sad conditions of the world aren't going to remain as they are for long and YAY no natural disasters or sickness or death.
    In the words of Louis Armstrong "What a wonderful world!"

    I think you should post the question HOW CAN WE PROVE THAT EVOLUTION IS FACTUAL?

    Fingers are hot but not smokin lol.
  • Apr 5, 2008, 08:13 AM
    rodandy12
    I agree with a lot of what is being said on both sides of this issue. I believe it is a form of dishonesty to establish a position and never analyze it. I think the problem many people have with religious zealots of any faith is that once they establish a position, they will hear nothing that might tend to compromise their position. They will reshape the world... like not believing in dinosaurs... if it puts them in a position of compromise. Some psychologist might have a name for this. For me, these are the truly lazy people.

    God gave us a world and life in it. There is much that is hard to understand about it. Without trying to start another string, much seems to contradict standard rhetoric from the generally followed religions. God gave us life, he/she didn't give us religion. Our ancestors made that up (did it numerous times) and it seems to me it is pretty easy to understand why.

    We humans have a strong need to understand how we fit into the world we were given. Religion is an attempt to do that. I can't discount the notion that god spoke to people in the past and those people passed that information down to others. Over the centuries, though, religion has been used by many for other purposes. It is a perfect tool for herding those non-seekers of knowledge into controllable boxes. One doesn't have to look very far to see it.

    For me, it is a struggle to take it all in and try to sort it out in my own mind. Even though humans can't comprehend the whole ball of wax, it is probably worth a life to be a seeker throughout it. I just work to try and understand little pieces. My conscience won't let me completely lock down a belief if I can't understand/justify it no matter where it comes from... short of divine revelation, of course. But, we haven't had much of that in a while.
  • Apr 5, 2008, 11:14 PM
    Onan
    Quote:

    If anyone thinks there is a reason to doubt God's Word then the faith and accurate knowledge of that one, attainable through the bible, is obviously weak.
    My goal was not to prove how much of a christian my mother is, but to point out that it won't matter what is shown the believer will believe regardles.

    Quote:

    A true christian would study the Word deeper to prove to THEMSELVES that it is the truth, to keep testing to "make sure of all things" (1 Thess 5:21) and not just take anothers word for it.
    There was more written than what ended up in the Bible. At one time all of the stuff left out of the Bible was also considered the word of God. If a person really wants to study and learn they would get a hold of the other writings. I agree you should never accept someone's word for anything, but isn't that what the christian is doing by believing the Bible? By believing the books in the christian Bible your taking someone's word over the words written by someone else. The only way to change that is study it all and then come to conclusions. It's a long process though, it's something I have been doing now for 20 years. You have to study everything from the history of religion to translations. The first thing I learned when I started was how there was mistranslations and forgeries in the Bible to coinside with whatever the forger believed. This kind of research is easy now, all you have to do is Google history of religion, or history of christianity. It was not that easy when I started my research.

    Quote:

    You may call it blindness or stupidity
    I would never call anyone stupid for believeing what they believe. However I will suggest there is a lot you don't know about religion as a whole.

    Quote:

    I think you should post the question HOW CAN WE PROVE THAT EVOLUTION IS FACTUAL?
    That would be too easy. It would also bore me to tears.

    Quote:

    Fingers are hot but not smokin lol.
    :) :) :)

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
    I don't believe dinosaurs really existed, but the evidence of them is merely a trick of satan to cause people to fall away from the real truth.
    CHUCK, chuck, chuck,,

    Did you really write that??

    I have heard this before, but I thought the thing now was believing what the creationists teach, that dinosaurs and humans lived together and the big lizards were even on the ark.

    At any rate this is the problem I have with the way christians think at times. To me this is giving satan way too much credit and power.
  • Apr 6, 2008, 03:52 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Onan
    By believing the books in the Christian Bible you're taking someone's word over the words written by someone else.

    You are right on that. The various human selections of Bible books that resulted in the Bible we know today is therefore claimed to be written "guided by God", to give the human selection some glorious higher spiritual lining.
    .
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Onan
    I would never call anyone stupid for believing what they believe.

    Neither would I. People should be free to believe whatever they prefer. That does not make whatever they believe more than BELIEF, though! Reason why I always ask people - who CLAIM that what they believe is "the one and only truth" - to provide objective supporting evidence for that.
    After doing that already for many years I still have to receive the first ever valid evidence...
    .
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Onan
    Quote:

    I think you should post the question HOW CAN WE PROVE THAT EVOLUTION IS FACTUAL?
    That would be too easy. It would also bore me to tears.

    As I stated earlier :

    The Evolution Theory can not be proved to be 100% correct based on objective supported evidence. But with the overall majority of the Theory being supported that way, it is at least scientifically accepted as real, and as factual.

    The Bible can not be proved to be 100% correct neither based on objective supportive evidence. But hardly a couple of percent of all stories and "facts" in the Bible can be supported from factual historical data and findings.
    So the Bible as book and as "word of God" can not be proved to be factual at all. It is not a book of physics or history. It is a religious manual to guide people through life...
    ;)
  • Apr 6, 2008, 06:10 AM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Onan
    To me this is giving satan way too much credit and power.

    Epic struggle needs a worthy adversary. If Satan didn't exist, we'd have to invent him.
  • Apr 6, 2008, 06:16 AM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    After doing that already for many years I still have to receive the first ever valid evidence ...

    I don't doubt that this has been your experience. What I don't understand is why you think it's noteworthy. After all these years of doing the same thing and getting the same result, why does it still surprise you?
  • Apr 6, 2008, 07:55 AM
    Onan
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
    Epic struggle needs a worthy adversary. If Satan didn't exist, we'd have to invent him.

    This is true, but Satan does not need to prove his existence by proving God does not exist. To believe in one means you have to believe in the other. Satan would be proving he didn't exist as well which would be pointless on his part. I just don't understand why people would think planting dinosaur bones all over the globe is some diabolical plan from Satan to prove the bible wrong. To reject the bible would be to reject both entities in which case no one wins. If this is indeed a power struggle between God and Satan, Satan would be winning right now because he brings proof to the table while God expects people to get it from a book that can't even agree with itself. That's why I say they give too much credit and power to Satan.
  • Apr 6, 2008, 09:07 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
    I don't doubt that this has been your experience. What I don't understand is why you think it's noteworthy. After all these years of doing the same thing and getting the same result, why does it still surprise you?

    Who says it surprises me? I did not state that! Not even hinted into that direction!
    .
    I think it is very noteworthy, as - with all my respect for the individual freedom of any individual to believe whatever one prefers to believe - it is necessary to make sure that Church and State for ever stay separated.
    ;)
  • Apr 6, 2008, 10:25 AM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Onan
    I just don't understand why people would think planting dinosaur bones all over the globe is some diabolical plan from Satan to prove the bible wrong. To reject the bible would be to reject both entities in which case no one wins.

    Ah, but in their mind Satan DOES win if he fools people into thinking he either doesn't exist, or isn't very powerful.
  • Apr 6, 2008, 10:52 AM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    it is necessary to make sure that Church and State for ever stay separated. ;)

    I certainly agree with you about this, but I don't remember you mentioning before now that this is your reason for discussing it. Mostly, you have railed against people who claim that what they BELIEVE is the one and only truth, but offer no "objective proof" to support their position--as if they OWE you that. I agree with you that it's an absurd claim for them to make, but your insistence that they are somehow obligated to meet your standard of "proof" is equally absurd. As long as they don't try to write it into law and use the power of the state to enforce it, they don't owe the rest of us any kind of "proof".
  • Apr 6, 2008, 12:53 PM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    Every time I get into a debate with a Christian about the Christian beliefs, the bible is the only source they ever use to back up what they say.
    Don't be frustrated by that, as every religious person who walks the earth does the same thing with whatever book they hold to be divine, by whatever God they worship. The amazing thing I have learned over the years, is they all believe the same thing about their religion, and the book they use, and think its so different, than the guy over there. They even have the shortsightedness to point to the differences, but its an attempt to elevate them over those, and if you stand back, and watch them go at it, its all in the same way. There are a lot more similarities than differences so don't worry about who's the best, and never ask who you should listen to as they will all want you to follow them, and not those. Their book gives them the right, I think to be right. The only real difference really is the geography and custom they talk about, which under careful scrutiny, and the surprise of those that question, they all have the same basic code of conduct. I can only suggest you talk to others, that think they are so different, even if the geography is distant, and see those amazing similarities between humans, and their, writings for yourself. The best analogy is how the young guys wear their colors, to show where they come from, same shirt, different color, same behavior. They hate and kill the other color, because it's the wrong color. So don't let it bother you much, they all think their that right anyway, another similarity they all choose to ignore.
  • Apr 6, 2008, 01:41 PM
    Galveston1
    Interesting thing about evolution. The theory demands VERY large time spans. I understand that in the sediment layers, we have a layer that contains NO fossil records, and in the next layer, we find fossil records of everything. What happened to that large time lapse when there would have to be an ever increasing number of fossils, both as to kind and number? Where are those doggone intermediate layers? Maybe those of you who are sold on that theory need to go back and make some changes. Again.
  • Apr 6, 2008, 02:27 PM
    inthebox
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    Who says it surprises me? I did not state that! Not even hinted into that direction!
    .
    I think it is very noteworthy, as - with all my respect for the individual freedom of any individual to believe whatever one prefers to believe - it is necessary to make sure that Church and State for ever stay separated.
    ;)



    So you expect governing officials that have faith in some belief system to be schizophrenic?



    Hmmm... do I trust someone who can't even be true to themselves - for the sake of political correctness nonetheless,. versus someone who knows themselves and , is not ashamed to tell you of their beliefs, regardless of what you may think of them.




    Oh, I get it you do not want any governing officials to have any faith?




    That contradicts fredom of religious expression [ 1st amendment ], doesn't it?
  • Apr 6, 2008, 07:46 PM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    So you expect governing officials that have faith in some belief system to be schizophrenic?

    Not at all. These officials should keep to their Constitution that clearly describes that specific separation. What they do in their governmental work should remain separated from and uninfluenced by their personal belief system. Outside their work they are free to believe whatever suits them best. Just as the rest of us all!
    .
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    Hmmm........ do I trust someone who can't even be true to themselves - for the sake of political correctness nonetheless, ..........versus someone who knows themselves and , is not ashamed to tell you of their beliefs, regardless of what you may think of them.

    Hmmm... unless you are clear what you mean with that... Why should I be expected to react on this?
    .
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    Oh, I get it you do not want any governing officials to have any faith?

    As stated : Not at all. These officials should keep to their Constitution that clearly describes that specific separation. What they do in their governmental work should remain separated from and uninfluenced by their personal belief system. Outside their work they are free to believe whatever suits them best. Just as the rest of us all!
    .

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by inthebox
    That contradicts freedom of religious expression [ 1st amendment ], doesn't it?

    Not at all. The original meaning and intention of the Constitution itself comes first and above any later amendments.
    And no that does not contradicts freedom of religious expression, as outside their work they are free to believe whatever suits them best. Just as the rest of us all!
    If people feel incapable of keeping to the Constitution for that specific reason, they are free to find other employment, and/or should never have accepted governmental employment in the first place.
    ;)
  • Apr 7, 2008, 05:00 AM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    The original meaning and intention of the Constitution itself comes first and above any later amendments.

    What? Surely you don't mean that all of the duly enacted amendments to the Constitution are null and void.
  • Apr 7, 2008, 08:19 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
    What? Surely you don't mean that all of the duly enacted amendments to the Constitution are null and void.

    As is clear from my full post I referred to the original intention of the US Constitution as expressed by the "Fathers of the Constitution" in 1787.
    Any amendment to that Constitution made ever since is of course just as valid, but one more step away from that original intention.
    .
    And that intention was clear and beyond any doubt : Full Separation of Church and State!!

    :rolleyes:
  • Apr 9, 2008, 09:39 PM
    eawoodall
    Bible is proven.

    By 'textual criticism', if you don't know what that is look up on internet.

    By quotes included in bible that scholars have proven must have been made by people exactly when they bible says it was written.

    By science because we discovery every time we compare the bible and our knowledge that the bible is correct

    By the action of the world, because the effect on peoples lives that are changed.

    By the miracles, and the books that should be written.

    And all these things, are just the things that atheists claim. These are what people admit.

    The bible is proven already as fact. The word fact means events that have actually happened. You can believe gravity does not exist, but if you step off a tall building gravity might have something to say to you. The same is true of the view in the bible.

    History shows the bible is reliable. Either in total or not at all. The bible says if someone is not realiable 100% of the time, do not listen to them. I KNOW the bible is true.
    That you ask this question shows you do not know enough history, or english, or math, or science, or other basis for facts.

    There is a need for being saved from ourselves, many call it salvation. Ergo a need for a religion to fill the void, if you choose to not accept the valid path.
    People who wrote the bible wrote of their lives. And many died proving it was their life, because many could have simply publicly denounced their beliefs and lived. Would not one out of several hundred have chosen to not be executed, if it was a lie they made up?

    No, faith is evidence of things not seen. I have only mentioned what those who are not christians admit. If you are in room, across from a chair. You believe the chair will support your weight, but only by sitting it in, are you actually exerting faith that it supports you.
    Belief without action is not faith. It is fantasy. You can say you believe you can pick the lottery numbers every time. But if you want to win, and do not buy a lottery ticket, you are not having faith in your ability to pick the numbers. Just all talk.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Oxman
    Every time I get into a debate with a Christian about the Christian beliefs, the bible is the only source they ever use to back up what they say. I do not know many books that give facts for my arguments for each specific argument; but I do know that to say that the Bible is so factual you can make it the only source for your information is just wrong! Give hard evidence that the men who wrote the Bible did not just write what they believed or thought. We cannot prove that! Religion is made up to explain the unexplainable and to give hope that we do not just live to die. If you contradict that statement then tell me why is there so many different religions? Why is it that the thought of just dieing and being no more bothers so many? I know I got off the subject of proving the Bible to be factual, but I have so many questions and I would like someone who knows real answers besides "Thats called Faith" to answer me.

  • Apr 9, 2008, 10:09 PM
    Onan
    Quote:

    the bible is proven already as fact.
    When did this happen?

    Quote:

    history shows the bible is reliable.
    Not really, can you give some some examples?

    Quote:

    people who wrote the bible wrote of their lives. And many died proving it was their life, because many could have simply publicly denounced their beliefs and lived.
    In the past people of all different religious beliefs have died for their faith, does that mean all of them are right? Just because people die believing something doesn't make it true.
  • Apr 9, 2008, 11:04 PM
    eawoodall
    1. He was trying to determine if you are sincere, in wanting answers or just hatemongering

    2. yes you can ask questions.

    3. he did not ask you to accept his view, you asked him to prove his view.

    4, even napaleon went across the red sea at the place where it parts or tried to, you must be ignorant of history to not know he proved it exists and where. You see only when the wind blows directly from the east there does the water part. But if the winds shifts, it closes. Napaleon on his horse almost drown trying to get out before the water went back in.
    You don't know the history of egypt. The ones called the 'black hearts' because they did not worship but one god were there for quite a while. Joseph of the coat of many colors was known as imhotep. He ruled the country (under the pharoah-who was a relative as the bible states). Abraham brought arithmetic to egypt. His son brought more. Imhotep wrote a book on geometry that euclid admitted joseph wrote, and euclid told all his greek friends he did not invent geometry joseph did. Imhotep made the first pyramid. Joseph servants were physicians. Joseph many think wrote 'genesis', you see moses was in egypt about 400 yeas later, and he was taught all the egyptians knew as a prince of eygpt, and choose to be counted as a hebrew. And when moses left eygpt he wrote down the 5 books (torah) from memory of genesis, and divine inspiration of all.

    We have even found the statue of one wearing a coat of many colors, in eygpt, in the place where the bible says they lived, for the hebrews did not live with the eygptians, but in their own settlement. And his tomb, but the bible says when moses and the others left they took his body back to the holy land, and imhoteps tomb is empty. Yes they had oblitered the face on the statue because they wanted to forget the hebrews were ever there. The eygptians often 'wiped out the pharoahs monuments' they did not like after the pharoahs died, but never well enough.

    Paranoid is to be overly concerned. I am not overly concerned, just concerned enough that you know that all you ask is already proven beyond any doubt, even has been done so in courts, and other governmental places, many times. But separation of church and state means you do not understand nor can you be told that such things are done. Secrets exist, but often only for a little while.

    Do not presume that one thing called a church is equal with another. People who worship idols like spagetti know they do wrong in their heart. And someone mentioned it as a alternative valid thing. Why would anyone think something they cooked would be worthy of worship?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rodandy12
    Wow.

    Chuck,

    You ought to get some counseling.

    1. How do you get from an attempt to focus on the the questioner's question to an assumption that someone hates religion?

    2. I thought these boards were open to all comers. I didn't know this one belonged only to individuals who were "true believers" in christianity. You probably ought to list it that way.

    3. Questioning you is either evil or longing to know the real truth? I would have thought everyone wanted to know the real truth. That's why we study and debate. Your issue is that everyone doesn't accept YOUR view.

    4. I don't know of a Dig that turned up a holy ghost or a burning bush or any dry land under the red sea. By the way, there is a very large amount of Egyptian history and there is no mention in it of jews. It ought to have been mentioned somewhere since around 1 million of them walked out on the pharaoh. That would have been around 2/3rds of the population of Egypt at that time.

    5. Isn't everyone's motive to get good answers to the questions posed? Isn't the best way to do that getting opinions from all sides? The best minister I ever knew taught that a believer needed to be able to debate anyone over issues of faith without sounding whacked out. He felt it was the best thing that could be done to coax non-believers into the fold.

    I think your reply made my point on being paranoid.

  • Apr 9, 2008, 11:29 PM
    eawoodall
    I already told you when and where. You are not listening. Obviosly you choose ignorance.

    already given many examples. You don't choose to believe in facts.

    mentally ill people die can think anything, and commit suicide, but their religion or personal pivotal value is not to blame for mental illness.
    only a person who is being killed for their life, and who is offered to live if they renounce what they have lived is a valid person who can be believed. You see spys report what people do, and when you kill someone for their life, that is proven they were correct.

    how can we prove the bible is factual, already done! Want to do it again, just read.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Onan
    when did this happen??

    Not really, can you give some some examples??

    In the past people of all different religious beliefs have died for their faith, does that mean all of them are right?? Just because people die believing something doesn't make it true.

  • Apr 10, 2008, 01:54 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eawoodall
    how can we prove the bible is factual, already done! want to do it again, just read.

    WHERE ? WHEN ? With WHAT ?

    Some MINOR points in the Bible may be correct. But the Bible as such has never been proved for what it is claimed to be.
    Neither was there ever any objective supporting evidence for the Bible being factual, and - because the Bible is based on BELIEF - it never will.

    Believe what you prefer, believe whatever suits you, but do not insist that whatever you BELIEVE is factual until that has been proved to be that!

    :rolleyes:
  • Apr 10, 2008, 05:21 AM
    Moparbyfar
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis

    Believe what you prefer, believe whatever suits you, but do not insist that whatever you BELIEVE is factual until that has been proved to be that!

    Funny... that's EXACTLY what people are doing who lean toward evolution... no proven facts there so far!!

    :rolleyes:
  • Apr 10, 2008, 05:32 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
    Funny..........that's EXACTLY what people are doing who lean toward evolution.......no proven facts there so far!!!!!!!

    Evolution: Fact Or Theory? How Can It Be Both? What's the Difference?

    Evidence Supporting Biological Evolution | Science and Creationism: A View from the National Academy of Sciences, Second Edition
  • Apr 10, 2008, 05:41 AM
    eawoodall
    Wrong

    Wrong

    Wrong

    What you believe does not make reality. Reality makes you. What you think about it, is never the issue. My beliefs do not change reality, neither do yours, no matter what you think. Actual scientists know what proof is. And you have been given proof, that you do not believe it, shows your ignorance of science. It is proven. Sad you don't know about legal proof, or formal logic. The bible is not about belief, it is a factual book of events. You can choose to belief an event happened or not, but if it did occur the word is fact. You can think jfk did not die, you can think right is wrong, but it will not change the view of everyone else toward you, but to realize you are not reasonable or honest intellectually.

    I never quoted anyone in the bible, nor about the bible, I just told you about scientific evidence that proves the bible is right. From people such as yourself who are atheists.
    You don't believe atheists? When they say the bible has been proven as true?


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Credendovidis
    WHERE ? WHEN ? With WHAT ?

    Some MINOR points in the Bible may be correct. But the Bible as such has never been proved for what it is claimed to be.
    Neither was there ever any objective supporting evidence for the Bible being factual, and - because the Bible is based on BELIEF - it never will.

    Believe what you prefer, believe whatever suits you, but do not insist that whatever you BELIEVE is factual until that has been proved to be that!

    :rolleyes:

  • Apr 10, 2008, 05:50 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eawoodall
    i just told you about scientific evidence that proves the bible is right.

    Is this the scientific evidence you refer to?
    https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...tml#post981598
  • Apr 10, 2008, 05:53 AM
    talaniman
    Quote:

    the bible is not about belief, it is a factual book of events.
    It's a history book, that gives us a great glimpse into the life of ancient man, and his struggle for his humanity. One thing for sure, ancient man knew right from wrong, and tried to do right, despite many obstacles. Just as modern man does. There are many history books from ancient man, from many regions of the world, that have valuable insights into how they thought, acted, believed, and lived.
  • Apr 10, 2008, 06:43 AM
    eawoodall
    quantum algebra for example proves that the complexity of this universe is about 16.
    any amoeba requires a complexity of 1024 to exist randomly.
    so no single amoeba can exist in this universe by evolution or randomness, only an act of creation by a divine being could create them. And how much more mathematically are people complex compared to an amoeba?
    billions and billions is the term.

    even the dialetric process has proven that God exists in the mental capacity field. That God must be perfect and think perfect, and so act perfectly. That you have not heard of such scientific proofs that are accepted throughout the world is sad.
  • Apr 10, 2008, 07:04 AM
    Onan
    Quote:

    even napaleon went across the red sea at the place where it parts or tried to, you must be ignorant of history to not know he proved it exists and where. You see only when the wind blows directly from the east there does the water part. But if the winds shifts, it closes. Napaleon on his horse almost drown trying to get out before the water went back in.
    Everyone knows the Red Sea exists, but as you so nicely pointed out it was not an act of God that parted the Red Sea as told in the Exodus story, but an act of nature. This does not in any way prove the story true, it just proves back when the story was written they too knew of the act of nature.

    Quote:

    you don't know the history of egypt.
    Yes I do, and no where in their history do they mention the story of moses, and the great escape.

    Quote:

    joseph of the coat of many colors was known as imhotep. He ruled the country (under the pharoah-who was a relative as the bible states).
    This is just fantasy, there is not much to support it because the times these guys lived were not even close to being the same. Imhotep lived during the third dynasty(2635-2595 BCE) while most theologians say Joseph lived around 1730 BCE. Looks to me like someone borrowed an egyptian story and tried to apply it to themselves. That's just my theory though. I would like to mention though that Imhotep was deified and became the son of Ptah. He was thought of as a God by the egyptians. I think this should be more than enough to show they are two different people. Joseph was never considered a God and rightly so because the Bible tells us there is only one, right?

    Quote:

    joseph many think wrote 'genesis',
    I never heard this.

    Quote:

    you see moses was in egypt about 400 yeas later, and he was taught all the egyptians knew as a prince of eygpt, and choose to be counted as a hebrew. And when moses left eygpt he wrote down the 5 books (torah) from memory of genesis, and divine inspiration of all.
    Yep and even wrote of his own death and funeral. That's some trick.

    Quote:

    we have even found the statue of one wearing a coat of many colors, in eygpt, in the place where the bible says they lived, for the hebrews did not live with the eygptians, but in their own settlement. And his tomb, but the bible says when moses and the others left they took his body back to the holy land, and imhoteps tomb is empty. Yes they had oblitered the face on the statue because they wanted to forget the hebrews were ever there. The eygptians often 'wiped out the pharoahs monuments' they did not like after the pharoahs died, but never well enough.
    I don't even know what to say about this. I don't know if I should laugh or cry. It's amazing to me the lengths people will go to just to prove the Bible true. I think you will have to try harder than this. So far you have shown the Hebrews liked to borrow things from earlier legends for their own. This is not the only case of this either. As I have mentioned before a lot of those early stories in the Bible came from earlier stories and legends. History does not prove the Bible factual, and in most cases proves the exact opposite. Sure there is all kinds of proof of all the enemies the hebrews faced but for some reason we come up blank on the heroes. Explain that to me. That's like saying Captain America was a real person because Hitler was a real person.
  • Apr 10, 2008, 07:20 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Moparbyfar
    Funny..........that's EXACTLY what people are doing who lean toward evolution.......no proven facts there so far!!!!!!!

    That is a ridiculous claim. There is overwhelming scientific objective evidence for evolution.
    A scientific Theory like the Theory of Evolution is not "just a theory", but a scientific near-fact, accepted and supported sufficiently.
    That stated : of course there still are - and most probably still will remain - holes in the theory, caused by the long time involved (over 3,5 Billion years ago since life took hold on earth), the lack of evidence for all life forms that lacked bones to be fossilized, and for transition forms between species due to the short time of their existence.

    That is entirely different than the position of religious claims for which there will NEVER be any possible way to provide objective supporting evidence!

    :rolleyes:
  • Apr 10, 2008, 07:35 AM
    Credendovidis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eawoodall
    quantum algebra for example proves that the complexity of this universe is about 16.

    16 WHAT ?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eawoodall
    any amoeba requires a complexity of 1024 to exist randomly.

    1024 WHAT ?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eawoodall
    so no single amoeba can exist in this universe by evolution or randomness

    So? What nonsensical conclusion is that? Based on what argument?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eawoodall
    ... only an act of creation by a divine being could create them.

    That is what you BELIEVE. But on what is that based, if you claim that to be factual?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eawoodall
    ... even the dialetric process has proven that God exists in the mental capacity field.

    WHERE ? WHEN ?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eawoodall
    ... that God must be perfect and think perfect, and so act perfectly.

    "must be"... is THAT your objective supporting evidence ?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eawoodall
    ...that you have not heard of such scientific proofs that are accepted throughout the world is sad.

    Scientific proofs... :D :D ROLFL :D :D I see that you have not even an inkling of what the term scientific proof means...

    :rolleyes:
  • Apr 10, 2008, 08:22 PM
    Moparbyfar
    [QUOTE=[B]Credendovidis[/B]] There is overwhelming scientific objective evidence for evolution.
    A scientific Theory like the Theory of Evolution is not "just a theory", but a scientific near-fact, accepted and supported sufficiently.[Quote]

    If a poll was taken of all the scientists in the world, most would say they believe Darwinism is true not because of fact but because like everybody else, they base most of their opinions on the words of other people.

    A comment from Darwins Black Box - "In private many scientists admit that science has no explaination for the beginning of life...Darwin never imagined the exquisitely profound complexity that exists even at the most basic levels of life."

    In 2004 the National Geographic described the fossil record as being like "a film of evolution from which 999 of every 1,000 frames have been lost on the cutting-room floor."
    The remaining "frames" fail to document the process of evolution as anything more than just a theory.
  • Apr 10, 2008, 08:42 PM
    Fr_Chuck
    In several of the digs, they found various things, buildings where after a while some of the bricks no longer used stray, following the exact theme of the Old Testement, There is so much science proof that the Old Testement is true, I can not see anyone with knowledge of it, even doubting the main themes of the storys. They may disagree with what caused the Sea to part, but not the issue of slaves and the such from that time.

    Even events like the flood have been proven though flood layers found that showed major parts of the "known" world of that time would have been flooded at some point in history.

    So in general, those that don't want to believe will make up their own "BELIEFS" so they don't have to accept, but in the end, it is all what they BELIEVE, since they can't prove it or show it
  • Apr 10, 2008, 09:04 PM
    talaniman
    If you think about it no culture can offer facts for its beliefs, they just believe it.

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