Ask Me Help Desk - Is this a Christian nation or NOT

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

You haven't demolished anything, not even close. You just dance around the point I'm trying to make without addressing it.

No actually. You're argument is demolished. You are just so intent on winning you haven't noticed.

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If I say a building is built of steel, that doesn't tell the while story, because the building probably also is built of concrete and other materials.

Your metaphor is unsound. I never said this nation was built of Christianity. I said it was built on Christian principles.

So, that is like saying the nation was built on a stone foundation. We know that other materials come into play. But the foundation remains stone.

Or another metaphor would be to say the nation was built on a steel frame. Again, other materials may be used to complete the building. But the steel frame sustains the basic structure.

And so it is with my saying the nation was founded by Christian men on their Christian principles.

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So to say the US was founded on Christian principles doesn't tell the whole story either.

But this thread is not about telling the entire story. It is only about whether this nation can rightfully be called a Christian nation. In my opinion, based on the FACTS, that this nation's founders were Christian and that they founded this country on Christian principles, I say, "Yes."

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But if you insist that the US is a Christian nation, denigrates all the other elements that went into its formation.

False. If we go back to your metaphor of a building. The foundation is the most important element of the building. But the walls are NOT denigrated because they are made of wood and I say, "the foundation is of the best cement."

Sincerely,

De Maria

Good work on attacking my building analogy. But you still don't deal with my main point. And as long as you dance around that you haven't done anything about my main point.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Saph

The founders ;or most of them were active members of Christian denominations ;many were deists and stillactive members of their church .That is about the most irrelevant point in this debate. Thefact is that none of them had a notion that they were founding a "Christian nation" .

Not really. That is the most cogent of points. When my Mexican grandmother makes us a meal, she doesn't intend to make Mexican food. She just intends to feed us.

When our Christian forefathers set out to build a nation, they simply intended to make a government which protected the Christian values in which they believed.

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Honestly ,I think the biggest concern of the colonist were changes in the rules of commerce initiated by the Brits in an attempt to pay for their very expensive war against the French;that had directly benifited the colonists . Had King George not been such an the issues were resolvable. Many of his reactions were punitive and that helped tip the balance of the hearts and minds of the populace in favor of revolution (barely : the populace was pretty much divided between "patriots" ,"tories" and fence sitters)

Scott and George are right ; the influence of the Enlightenment on the founders was the philosophy behind the Revolution.

Whether the founders were influenced by the Enlightenment is a moot question. They were Christians who based the founding principles on which this nation was built on recognizable Christian precepts.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

So, aren't any of you interested in what my question was?????? Or are you soooooo damn interested in laying bible on me that you don't even bother to read?????

excon

Poor excon... :(

Surely you aren't surprised though...

I'd answer your question, but I'm a dirty heathen with no church, so I don't think it applies to me! If you welcome the opinion of dirty heathens, just say so, but I'm sure you have a good idea what I'd say... :D

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

Poor excon.... :(

Surely you aren't surprised though....

I'd answer your question, but I'm a dirty heathen with no church, so I don't think it applies to me! If you welcome the opinion of dirty heathens, just say so, but I'm sure you have a good idea what I'd say... :D

And I tried to answer and even told you I love you... :D

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Originally Posted by De Maria

No actually. You're argument is demolished. You are just so intent on winning you haven't noticed.

Your metaphor is unsound. I never said this nation was built of Christianity. I said it was built on Christian principles.

So, that is like saying the nation was built on a stone foundation. We know that other materials come into play. But the foundation remains stone.

Or another metaphor would be to say the nation was built on a steel frame. Again, other materials may be used to complete the building. But the steel frame sustains the basic structure.

And so it is with my saying the nation was founded by Christian men on their Christian principles.

But this thread is not about telling the entire story. It is only about whether or not this nation can rightfully be called a Christian nation. In my opinion, based on the FACTS, that this nation's founders were Christian and that they founded this country on Christian principles, I say, "Yes."

False. If we go back to your metaphor of a building. The foundation is the most important element of the building. But the walls are NOT denigrated because they are made of wood and I say, "the foundation is of the best cement."

Sincerely,

De Maria

Hi De Maria,

As much as I would like to agree with you I can't. A nation found under christian morals and values it may have been. I can see an argument for that. The problem is being founded as such doesn't make it such "Today". Today our nation uses the guise of christianity but in reality is nothing close.

First, a large sum of our population (like 70%+) claim to be christian. When asked to define that belief most answer "I believe in god". Great! So do almost ever other religion out there. Does that make them christian. Not even close.

Second, as a true melting pot our government is influenced by all kinds of "religions". A great example is the removing of most christian based sayings, songs and words in our public school system for the sake of being Politically Correct. Another great example in Texas a group had the city of dallas remove a placard that mentioned "in god we trust". I could go on and on.

So my question is, how can we be a christian nation but rebel at ever chance? Forget what the country was founded under. It doesn't mean a thing if we don't adhere to those principals today.

America was founded by protestant Christians so naturally the majority of Americans are Christians (76-80%) to me that mean it is in theory a Christian Nation although there is separation of Church and State.

If it's a christian nation does that mean it's a theocracy, like Saudi Arabia?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

If it's a christian nation does that mean it's a theocracy, like Saudi Arabia?

Valid point.. Last I checked ol'Bush didn't defer his authority to god. BOMBS Away!

I am slow sometimes on something's, first to admit, but that only opens me up to learn more.

I love my country, but I do not think we are a Christian Nation.

Am I wrong?

To me there is a difference between a country which is made up of mostly Christians, and a country which governs itself with Christian morals. I do not think American does this. Sure we base many of our laws off common Christian principles (don't murder), but we have no national religion, and we have many laws which go against Christianity as well (abortion). To me, if America were a "Christian nation", it would be a theocracy.

Certainly there are some people out there who wish we were a theocracy, and there are probably even some out there who think we are - but we aren't. We are a democracy which promotes religious freedom - the way it should be. Our leaders and population being mostly one religion means nothing, really.

I've heard people call this a Christian nation because a majority of our population is Christian, but I ask, what does that mean? Most of our population is also white - are we a white nation? There are more men in America than women - are we a male nation? If there are more brunettes than blondes, are we a brunette nation? A nation of the middle-aged? Should we start referring to ourselves as "America - the white, male, brunette, middle-aged Christian nation!"? Majority means little when describing your country; it's arbitrary and unimportant. Plus, it evokes an "us-versus-them" mentality, which I think (hope) we can all agree, leads to nothing but trouble.

We're Americans. We promote freedom, especially of religion. We don't need a national religion because that would hinder such freedom. If we are ever declared a Christian nation, I'm moving - the sh!t is about to hit the fan!

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

To me there is a difference between a country which is made up of mostly Christians, and a country which governs itself with Christian morals. I do not think American does this. Sure we base many of our laws off of common Christian principles (don't murder), but we have no national religion, and we have many laws which go against Christianity as well (abortion). To me, if America were a "Christian nation", it would be a theocracy.

Certainly there are some people out there who wish we were a theocracy, and there are probably even some out there who think we are - but we aren't. We are a democracy which promotes religious freedom - the way it should be. Our leaders and population being mostly one religion means nothing, really.

I've heard people call this a Christian nation because a majority of our population is Christian, but I ask, what does that mean? Most of our population is also white - are we a white nation? There are more men in America than women - are we a male nation? If there are more brunettes than blondes, are we a brunette nation? A nation of the middle-aged? Should we start referring to ourselves as "America - the white, male, brunette, middle-aged Christian nation!"? Majority means little when describing your country; it's arbitrary and unimportant. Plus, it evokes an "us-versus-them" mentality, which I think (hope) we can all agree, leads to nothing but trouble.

We're Americans. We promote freedom, especially of religion. We don't need a national religion because that would hinder such freedom. If we are ever declared a Christian nation, I'm moving - the sh!t is about to hit the fan!

As a christian, I agree whole heartily... I have been saying it from day one we are not a christian nation just because a large portion of the population "thinks" they are christian.

I don't believe America is a Christian Nation. But I believe 100% that there's a Christian in America

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Originally Posted by jillianleab

To me there is a difference between a country which is made up of mostly Christians, and a country which governs itself with Christian morals. I do not think American does this. Sure we base many of our laws off of common Christian principles (don't murder), but we have no national religion, and we have many laws which go against Christianity as well (abortion). To me, if America were a "Christian nation", it would be a theocracy.

Certainly there are some people out there who wish we were a theocracy, and there are probably even some out there who think we are - but we aren't. We are a democracy which promotes religious freedom - the way it should be. Our leaders and population being mostly one religion means nothing, really.

I've heard people call this a Christian nation because a majority of our population is Christian, but I ask, what does that mean? Most of our population is also white - are we a white nation? There are more men in America than women - are we a male nation? If there are more brunettes than blondes, are we a brunette nation? A nation of the middle-aged? Should we start referring to ourselves as "America - the white, male, brunette, middle-aged Christian nation!"? Majority means little when describing your country; it's arbitrary and unimportant. Plus, it evokes an "us-versus-them" mentality, which I think (hope) we can all agree, leads to nothing but trouble.

We're Americans. We promote freedom, especially of religion. We don't need a national religion because that would hinder such freedom. If we are ever declared a Christian nation, I'm moving - the sh!t is about to hit the fan!

Absolutely agree. Freedom to have a religion or not. ;)

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Originally Posted by RickJ

I think the idea that America is (or was) a Christian nation
1. Has never been true, so is a huge urban legend, and
2. Does more to divide than bring us together.

Our nation was founded with the presumption that there is a God but that's about as far as it goes.

Sort of related but sort of not: Even the founding fathers were unclear about their faith and even hypocritical in that they affirmed equality and "inalienable rights" yet many had slaves.

Exactly Rick.. exactly. Does far more to divide. And we, America, are truly a melting pot, not just of nationality, but also of religion.

But where did the saying "One Nation under God" come from? To me that doesn't make us a Christian nation. At all. But I do wonder where that comes from.

It would only be a title, one like Rick said, only causes division. We surely do not act as Christians, as a whole. Myself, included in that. Our priorites sometimes are way out wack. Look how we idiolize Hollywood and such. Our actions are not symbolic, largely, of anything Christ like. Sad to say.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

But where did the saying "One Nation under God" come from? To me that doesn't make us a Christian nation. At all. But I do wonder where that comes from.

Hello again, All:

Prior to the 50's, the pledge read, "one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. That's how I learned it.

There was no mention of God then, and there SHOULD'T be now. It was inserted by some Christian's while the country was suffering from McCarthyism. People were afraid to object because McCarthy would have branded them communists.

Besides, at that time, we were fairly relaxed about it anyway. I remember starring as Jesus in the school Christmas play. He was Jew, after all. We can't do those things today, and we should remove the offensive “under god” too.

Personally, I think it reads so much better the old way. In fact, inserting the words "under god" DIVIDES us, making a mockery of the next word "indivisable".

excon

Thanks excon for the explanation.

I like the Under God part, (sorry :( ), but I never dreamed or selfishly thought, it would offend others.

Thanks again, I really didn't know all that. I am sure they taught it in school, but I tuned out a lot :) Not on purpose.

But as someone that believes in God very much, I do like it, but it's offensive, because, of those who do not believe in God?

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Originally Posted by Allheart

I do like it, but it's offensive, because, of those who do not believe in God?

Hello again, All:

Sure it's offensive. We only have ONE pledge of allegiance. It should be one that EVERYBODY can say without winking...

It used to be a beautiful sentiment that one could say to show their allegiance to their country. Not to God - that should be done in church.

excon

The original U.S. motto, chosen by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, is E Pluribus Unum ("Of Many, One"), celebrating plurality, not theocracy.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, All:

Sure it's offensive. We only have ONE pledge of allegiance. It should be one that EVERYBODY can say without winking....

It used to be a beautiful sentiment that one could say to show their allegiance to their country. Not to God - that should be done in church.

excon

Very good point Ex, I'm sorry. Honest. You are right. All Americans should be comfortable with pledging allegiance to their country without saying something they normally wouldn't.

It's a struggle for those that believe, I think, to remove it, because then, at least for me, it would be "giving in" and making others comfortable about not believing in God.

I just lend this insight, knowing it may be wrong, to help you understand why some would have a hard time removing it, because they believe so much in God. We would feel like we are hiding God, from others. I know, that may be wrong, but again, just sharing the struggles.

But as you said, we can do that in Church and in our homes.

Love you much.

Apparently atheists aren't allowed to hold office or be a witness in a trail by state law in 7 different states. So it may not be a christian nation but they sure end up making the laws.

The Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution never make a mention of Christian, Christ or any other than a generic god in reference to "inalienable rights." In fact the "In God We Trust" as seen on currency or "....Nation under God" in the Pledge did not exist until Eisenhower signed both into law in 1953. Christian? No Way! I will go with the laws established on Judeo-Christian principles and values as thaose religions were mostdominant. But Founding Fathers took great care to avoid establishing a national religion as was common in European Nations.

For those that say the US is a Christian Nation, under just which of the many hundreds of denominations, sects and other divisions would that be? Roman Catholic would be largest. But Beware. Your flavor of Christianity may be excluded if you wish Christian domination.

This whole idea of a pledge is really quite amusing. Why does one need to recite some words to be proud of their country? Where I'm from we don't have one. Does that make us all unpatriotic? Maybe they should just consider scrapping the pledge all together then no one would be offended.

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Originally Posted by Skell

This whole idea of a pledge is really quite amusing. Why does one need to recite some words to be proud of their country? Where im from we dont have one. Does that make us all unpatriotic? Maybe they should just consider scrapping the pledge all together then no one would be offended.

Hi my Aussie friend,

Oh Skell, no I would never wanted it scraped. Ever. The feeling that you get placing your hand to your heart and reciting the pledge, I can't even describe. What goes through my mind when doing it, is all of those who have given their lives, so our country can remain free. I also think of my fellow Americans as well. It's a tribute. So hard to describe.

It sounds like something cults do to retain their followers.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

It sounds like something cults do to retain their followers.

LOL NK for goodness sake... Do you have a hat over there with all these sayings LOL just kiddn.

No, it's not, hopefully someone else can come in behind me and say it way better then I could. I just can't seem to describe it. I'm sorry.

For me, it's just symbolic for love of our country.

I just had a thought... uh oh. It's similar to the National Anthem, but it is spoken, instead of sung. On that line.

Just like the beautiful "Oh Canada". I used to be a huge hockey fan and would get chills hearing them sing your anthem as well.

It was established by Christians. It was established as a government without religious preference. It certainly was NOT established as an Atheist nation.

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Originally Posted by Galveston1

It was established by Christians. It was established as a government without religious preference. It certainly was NOT established as an Atheist nation.

Or as someone said:
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. Do not ever let anyone claim to be a true American patriot if they ever attempt to separate Religion from politics." George Washington

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Originally Posted by George_1950

Or as someone said:
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. Do not ever let anyone claim to be a true American patriot if they ever attempt to separate Religion from politics." George Washington

By George, I think George is wrong! Seriously wrong.

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Originally Posted by Skell

By George, I think George is wrong! Seriously wrong.

Shall we let history decide?

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"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. Do not ever let anyone claim to be a true American patriot if they ever attempt to separate Religion from politics." George Washington

What a crock of crap!! I'm with Exccon. Ya want to belief? Here's one for you.
I believe, Religion began when the first priest met the first fool Now there'sa belief for you.

Apparently you are correct Speedball. That quote is only found in one place by author David Barton who writes books for the religious right about how we are suppose to be a nation ruled by Christianity. He has no source for that quote other than his own writings.

Bsouthe - is all that from Obama's secret playbook or from Karl Marx?

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Bsouthe - is all that from Obama's secret playbook or from Karl Marx?

Such a pathetic attempt at mudslinging. And this is an example of christianity today. <sigh>

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Such a pathetic attempt at mudslinging.

NK, I don't think the "mudslinging's" pathetic at all. You just stumbled into a gaggle of free thinkers. We sling mud simply because Christianity gives us so many dandy openings to do so. And besides it's fun to tweek the noses of the Bible thumpers. You Christians have so many silly tenets in your religion that we just can't resist. I could rag on the Catholics all day but, hands down, the most fun people in the Christian Religion to "mess with their minds" are, without a doubt, the Christian Fundamentalists. They only see black and white, no shades of gray in their world. In short, you Christians are FUN people to play with. I know, for thirteen years after I retired I was into Women's Rights. I was head of security and chief escort for a abortion clinic. I escorted frightened girls past screaming protesters. You Christians really made those thirteen years interesting. I was attacked three times, shot at twice, went through five bomb scares and opened a letter that had white powder in it the writer claimed was Anthrax. It took three days before Hazmat told me I wasn't going to die. So much for "Christian Love". Yeah! I know you Christians real good. What do you think turned me into a stone atheist.

So.. the most rabid anti-Christian zealots are ex-Christians. Is that because you know Christians are called to be loving and forgiving? And that is why they make such easy targets?

Speedball did you ever once think that you escorted 2 lives in and onlly one came out?

Like Bsouth, they can spew their insults - take a look at the posts, but a when a Christian quotes the words of Obama and makes the comparison with Marx, it is called "mudslinging?" Call it what you want, this may not be a Christian nation, and despite political correctness, contrary views are still allowed in the US.

If Obama does not know that He associates with terrorists [ayers ], racists[Wright], and corruption [Rezko], what exact "Change" is He trying to bring?

Does Obama not think that the American voters will see Him as either knaive or just another politician using people to gain influence?

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Originally Posted by inthebox

Is that because you know Christians are called to be loving and forgiving?

That's the part we don't see much here. In my real life I have friends that span the religious and racial gamut, but here some of the christians are just plain nasty to others.

Okay NK - how about this, go to a al queda or hamas web site and spew your invectives at them and hope that only your feelings get hurt. ;)

What's the analogy? This isn't a christian website.
So when your feelings are hurt by people having different opinions you lash out at them?