Everyone who is not affiliated with Islam, or Judeo-Christianity is considered to be a pagan or a heathen. Pagan is a term used with such disdain, dog sh** gets better reviews. Heathen is even worse. How could their one God(s) be the only one? Are the rest of humanity doomed to go to their version of hell? Control! That's the problem, if you don't do as they say, you're F#@&*%. If God exists, I don't think he created us to be F#@&*% and go to hell.

The problem is the mind. When Christians, and everyone else are working out of their hearts, and not thinking things to death, life is pretty good. When we feel, we are with the Spirit. It is not possible to use language and be accurate, because each listener or reader interprets the words differently. But if we both feel Love, in it's highest form aren't we closer than if we have a conversation?

And think about it. How many people have ever existed? Of those, how many have been/are Christian? Of those, how many are REAL Christians who supposedly will go to heaven?

Now, is God doing to damn all the rest? Isn't God bigger than that?

My main beef with many Christians is their mindset. They may or may not be devout Christians but either way, they are in it for selfish reasons. Be good and believe in Christ so that you may go to Heaven. Don't do bad things so that you don't go to Hell.

Well, what if Heaven wasn't the "prize" at the end of your journey? Would you still be (or claim to be) devout Christians?

What if Jesus told us to believe in Him and that He died for our sins because that is what is True... AND, if you do that, you will certainly spend all of eternity suffering in the depths of Hell? Or you can shun Jesus and shun God and go frolic in Heaven. Show Him your ultimate love by sacrificing your soul for all of Eternity.

How many so-called "Christians" would subject themselves to Eternal Damnation for the Love of their Father?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by inthebox

As to arguing about "scientific proof" - evidence is there to freely decide.
That is why faith is the ultimate factor.

---

I wondered if you would join in on this thread. :) You're right - it comes down to faith. Earlier in this thread it was mentioned to (pretty much) look around and one can see god; but that implies having faith. The "proofs" mentioned in the link I referenced are only "proof" if you then apply faith. To believe in a god, one must have faith.

Quote:

---

If "science" could have definitive proof of "god" in a box, or underneath a microscope, or reproducible by some lab experiment, what kind of "god" would that be ?

---

An omnipotent one? :D If god can do anything, why CAN'T he prove himself using the scientific method? He controls everything anyway, so why not give someone the knowledge of some experiment to "prove god" and every time that experiment is performed, you get the same result? Then god IS proven using the scientific method, but only because he's allowing himself to be proven. Or are you forgetting that god can do whatever he wants, so if he wants to be proven by the scientific method, he can be? ;)

Or perhaps god would be one who wants everyone to believe because he wants everyone to be saved, and will do what it takes for them to believe, instead of sending muddled messages?

Stay with me here; lots of people use the parent/child analogy when describing god/people, so I'm going to do the same (put on your humor hat, please!)

We tell our children things in clear terms so they know what we want of them. We don't give them round about answers or commands; we don't say, "it would be nice if the dishwasher was empty", we say, "go empty the dishwasher".

So let's say you're my parent, and I'm about to stab my brother in the eye with a hat pin. MOST people don't do such a thing, but some people do. I'm going to do it unless you tell me, in clear, uncertain terms to NOT stab my brother in the eye. Instead of saying "Don't stab your brother in the eye!" (clear, uncertain terms), you say, "It's good to be nice to people" (rather ambiguous). So I stab my brother in the eye, and you get mad. I continue to go about stabbing people in the eye, because you just won't tell me not to. You KNOW what you need to say, but for whatever reason, you won't do it. Then, you punish me for it. Is this how we teach our children?

Jillian, while your humor is not lost on me and even though I have NO idea what a hat pin is, I will get to the point...

Those types of arguments against the validity of "God" only work if we think of God as some long, gray-haired old man sitting in a chair up in the clouds pulling strings.

Our humanization of God is, I believe, one of THE biggest deterrents in the belief in God.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jillianleab

We tell our children things in clear terms so they know what we want of them. We don't give them round about answers or commands; we don't say, "it would be nice if the dishwasher was empty", we say, "go empty the dishwasher".

So let's say you're my parent, and I'm about to stab my brother in the eye with a hat pin. MOST people don't do such a thing, but some people do. I'm going to do it unless you tell me, in clear, uncertain terms to NOT stab my brother in the eye. So I stab my brother in the eye, and you get mad. I continue to go about stabbing people in the eye, because you just won't tell me not to. You KNOW what you need to say, but for whatever reason, you won't do it. Then, you punish me for it. Is this how we teach our children?

---

You've just summed up the lesson in the Old Testament, except God DID tell His people not to stab their brother in the eye. And He punished them when they did.

Quote:

---

Instead of saying "Don't stab your brother in the eye!" (clear, uncertain terms), you say, "It's good to be nice to people" (rather ambiguous).

---

You've just summed up the lesson in the New Testament: love one another.

Parents teach their young children the "don't"s (and punish them when the children "don't") with the hope that, once the children mature, they will understand that "it's good to be nice to people."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And think about it. How many people have ever existed? Of those, how many have been/are Christian? Of those, how many are REAL Christians who supposedly will go to heaven?

Now, is God doing to damn all the rest? Isn't God bigger than that?

---

God doesn't damn anyone. Anyone going to hell wants to be there. No one says only the Christian goes to heaven. Abraham and Moses went to heaven and they never knew Jesus. Not the Jesus as flesh and blood anyway. I really encourage people to stop bashing the Christian and learn more about the Christ. Stop shooting the messenger and find out about the message. At least the Christian message offers something. The atheist message offers nothing because if there is no God, then we are all nothing and life is meaningless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by veritas

God doesn't damn anyone. Anyone going to hell wants to be there. No one says only the Christian goes to heaven.

---

That's not what most Christian churches teach, especially the evangelical ones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by veritas

The atheist message offers nothing because if there is no God, then we are all nothing and life is meaningless.

---

That demonstrates you don't know anything about atheists. I don't think life is meaningless, or that we are all nothing. I also don't think we are the most special beings in the universe. NONE of the atheists I know feel that way.

I live for this world, for the here and now. I live for making my future, the future of my family, of my loved ones a better place. It matters to me what kind of world we will have in 200 years because loved ones of mine (their descendents, rather) will be here, and I want them to enjoy it. It doesn't matter to me that I'll never know they enjoy it, I'm happy knowing that I've contributed to making the world a better place. I live for making a name for myself so I won't be forgotten once I'm dead, for leaving something of value behind. Life without god is not meaningless, not at all; it becomes MORE meaningful because it's all you have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrJizzle

My main beef with many Christians is their mindset. They may or may not be devout Christians but either way, they are in it for selfish reasons. Be good and believe in Christ so that you may go to Heaven. Dont do bad things so that you dont go to Hell.

Well, what if Heaven wasnt the "prize" at the end of your journey? Would you still be (or claim to be) devout Christians?

What if Jesus told us to believe in Him and that He died for our sins because that is what is True... AND, if you do that, you will certainly spend all of eternity suffering in the depths of Hell?? Or you can shun Jesus and shun God and go frolic in Heaven. Show Him your ultimate love by sacrificing your soul for all of Eternity.

How many so-called "Christians" would subject themselves to Eternal Damnation for the Love of their Father?

---

That's intelligent, Dr. Just broad brush every Christian in the world as selfish. Jesus said to deny yourself and take up your cross, bare each others burdens. Think of others as better than yourself. That sounds real selfish.

Please, go down to your local church and hang out there for a while. Look around for all the volunteers that keep that church running day-in and day-out. Find the fulltime engineer who also has a talent for music who is sacrificing his free time and family time to rehearse 2x/wk and play at all three church services, one on Saturday and two on Sunday. Be sure to look for the group of guys that take the time to visit the elderly lady at the old folks home who has no family and gets no visitors outside of those at your local church.

Please guys, I love you all but please make a real effort to understand God and those who choose to follow him. For the Christian, the purpose of life is to know God. To know God and to worship Him. Jesus came to earth as God Himself to communicate a simple message to us. Love God, Love your neighbor like you love yourself. I'm just not seeing the selfish message here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

That's not what most Christian churches teach, especially the evangelical ones.

---

What I say is true. Go to one please and find out. I could talk until I'm blue in the face but the only way you'll really know is to go. You don't have to accept anything... just go.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrJizzle

jillian, while your humor is not lost on me and even tho i have NO idea what a hat pin is, I will get to the point...

Those types of arguments against the validity of "God" only work if we think of God as some long, gray-haired old man sitting in a chair up in the clouds pulling strings.

Our humanization of God is, I believe, one of THE biggest deterrents in the belief in God.

---

This is a hat pin: hat pin - Google Image Search

I agree that argument only works if god is the biblical god; if god is the deist god, my argument fails on all levels. But we're talking (in this thread) about Christianity and the bible god.

The humanization of god is a big deterrent; I've never given much thought to deism, but if I were to believe in the existence of a god, it would probably be one of that sort. Still doesn't make my brain go, "yeah, that works" though! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by veritas

Love God, Love your neighbor like you love yourself.

---

I've hung out in churches since before I was born. The Christian believes he already has heaven in his pocket. No effort or good living is required to assure it. It's a no brainer. Jesus did all the work for the heaven thing.

The Christian's only response is to thank God by loving Him and loving others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jillianleab

That demonstrates you don't know anything about atheists. I don't think life is meaningless, or that we are all nothing. I also don't think we are the most special beings in the universe. NONE of the atheists I know feel that way.

I live for this world, for the here and now. I live for making my future, the future of my family, of my loved ones a better place. It matters to me what kind of world we will have in 200 years because loved ones of mine (their descendents, rather) will be here, and I want them to enjoy it. It doesn't matter to me that I'll never know they enjoy it, I'm happy knowing that I've contributed to making the world a better place. I live for making a name for myself so I won't be forgotten once I'm dead, for leaving something of value behind. Life without god is not meaningless, not at all; it becomes MORE meaningful because it's all you have.

---

With Love and Respect,
I wasn't talking about what you think or any particular atheist thinks. I am talking about what atheism means when you follow it to it's logical conclusion. What I want to know is what objective meaning is there if I am an atheist? I'm talking objective meaning, not your subjective feeling about what your life means. Is there any real object meaning to life, a meaning that is true regardless if anyone believes it or if no one believes it. That's object meaning.

Without God, there is no objective meaning or value.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You've just summed up the lesson in the Old Testament, except God DID tell His people not to stab their brother in the eye. And He punished them when they did.

You've just summed up the lesson in the New Testament: love one another.

Parents teach their young children the "don't"s (and punish them when the children "don't") with the hope that, once the children mature, they will understand that "it's good to be nice to people."

---

I think you missed the point of the analogy... Yes, those are the lessons in the Old and New Testaments, and according to the Bible, at SOME point god came down and told people, "don't stab your brother in the eye". My analogy was not intended to be taken on a mass level, but rather on a personal level. I'm doing something bad (being an atheist), and god, since he's all knowing, knows I'm doing this, and knows what it would take for me to stop. He's decided instead of telling me himself to stop, to tell me in a round about way (Christians telling me, mostly) that I should stop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by veritas

What I say is true. Go to one please and find out. I could talk until I'm blue in the face but the only way you'll really know is to go. You don't have to accept anything...just go.

---

Sorry, I diagree. The fundamentalist/evangelical churches teach that, if you're not a Christian and don't believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior, you are destined for hell, however that is defined.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jillianleab

I think you missed the point of the analogy... Yes, those are the lessons in the Old and New Testaments, and according to the Bible, at SOME point god came down and told people, "don't stab your brother in the eye". My analogy was not intended to be taken on a mass level, but rather on a personal level. I'm doing something bad (being an atheist), and god, since he's all knowing, knows I'm doing this, and knows what it would take for me to stop. He's decided instead of telling me himself to stop, to tell me in a round about way (Christians telling me, mostly) that I should stop.

---

I got your analogy but just found it very interesting that, in your examples, you gave the message of the two testaments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by veritas

With Love and Respect,
I wasn't talking about what you think or any particular atheist thinks. I am talking about what atheism means when you follow it to it's logical conclusion. What I want to know is what objective meaning is there if I am an atheist? I'm talking objective meaning, not your subjective feeling about what your life means. Is there any real object meaning to life, a meaning that is true regardless if anyone believes it or if no one believes it. That's object meaning.

Without God, there is no objective meaning or value.

---

Read my last line again:

Life without god is not meaningless, not at all; it becomes MORE meaningful because it's all you have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I got your analogy but just found it very interesting that, in your examples, you gave the message of the two testaments.

---

D'OH! I should have know you'd have gotten it - sorry!

Sorry! :o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jillianleab

Life without god is not meaningless, not at all; it becomes MORE meaningful because it's all you have.

---

And I'm not so sure you are as godless as you think you are, based on the description of how you live your life in joy and love.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jillianleab

Read my last line again:

Life without god is not meaningless, not at all; it becomes MORE meaningful because it's all you have.

---

I saw that line but how can life ever have objective meaning without God?

The question stands, what is the object purpose or meaning for which you were created? If you have to create one yourself, then it is not objective, it is merely subjective and simply something that you created.

For the atheist, we arrived here by time+chance+matter, the random collocation of atoms. You cannot derive an object purpose from time+chance+matter. There is no purpose, there is no value.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And I'm not so sure you are as godless as you think you are, based on the description of how you live your life in joy and love.

---

See, I think that just means I'm not some evil heathen! :)

I said before that action wise, I'm not that different than a lot of Christians. I love my life, my family, I'm a good person. I obey the law, I'm passionate about certain things, I care about people. The only difference is, I do it for ME, not for "god" or "Jesus" or anyone else. I also don't obey a lot of the biblical "rules" or object to a lot of the things the bible tells us are wrong, but there are a lot of Christians who are the same way.

But by saying you think I'm not as "godless" as I think I am, to me, that sort of implies one without god cannot or does not live a life full of love and happiness. As if the presence of god is what causes such goodness and joy. I'm not sure if that's what you intended to say, or if you agree with that, but I sure don't. I don't think the presence of god is a requirement for happiness or goodness. I think that can all be found from within, from society, from common sense. Additionally, I LIKE that I answer to no one but myself; that when I foul up, I'M at fault, I don't have anyone else to blame, or to share the guilt. I LIKE that when I do well, I get to take all the credit. I get all the pride, all the good feelings, I get it all - I don't have to share it with someone else, it's all mine. That's one of the things that keeps me so grounded and so firm on personal responsibility, actually. So as far as I'm concerned, if I had god, I'd be LESS happy in some ways. So why should I believe?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by veritas

I saw that line but how can life ever have objective meaning without God?

The question stands, what is the object purpose or meaning for which you were created? If you have to create one yourself, then it is not objective, it is merely subjective and simply something that you created.

For the atheist, we arrived here by time+chance+matter, the random collocation of atoms. You cannot derive an object purpose from time+chance+matter. There is no purpose, there is no value.

---

Explain to me what's wrong with not having an objective purpose? Why does there have to be a cosmological meaning of life, when people will, inevitably find their OWN meaning of life?

And what's the objective purpose with god? Entertainment? Worship? Working your way toward heaven?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jillianleab

As if the presence of god is what causes such goodness and joy.

---

He's there whether you acknowledge Him or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by veritas

That's intelligent, Dr. Just broad brush every Christian in the world as selfish. Jesus said to deny yourself and take up your cross, bare each others burdens. Think of others as better than yourself. That sounds real selfish.

Please, go down to your local church and hang out there for a while. Look around for all the volunteers that keep that church running day-in and day-out. Find the fulltime engineer who also has a talent for music who is sacrificing his free time and family time to rehearse 2x/wk and play at all three church services, one on Saturday and two on Sunday. Be sure to look for the group of guys that take the time to visit the elderly lady at the old folks home who has no family and gets no visitors outside of those at your local church.

Please guys, I love you all but please make a real effort to understand God and those who choose to follow him. For the Christian, the purpose of life is to know God. To know God and to worship Him. Jesus came to earth as God Himself to communicate a simple message to us. Love God, Love your neighbor like you love yourself. I'm just not seeing the selfish message here.

---

OK... well, you seemed to miss the whole point of that post.

I believe what I said, which you QUOTED in your post, was, "My main beef with many Christians is their mindset." That's not broad brushing every Christian in the world.

I was born and raised Christian in a very strict Christian home and have spent my life in the Church and serving in the Church... rehearsal, playing piano, keyboard, and guitar in worship, counseling at youth camps, and more...

The direction of this thread was to explain what it is about Christianity or Christians that turn people off that religion. I explained exactly that.

I understand what the True purpose of Christianity is. I understand that there are many Christians out there that give wholeheartedly.

But I also understand that there are MANY MORE Christians that do what they are told to do in the Scripture because they want Heaven and don't want Hell.

My point was to reverse the roles... Imagine a world where Christianity taught us that by Knowing God and following His Word you would be doomed to Eternity in Hell... that would be the price that we all pay by devoted our Life to Him.

On the other hand, you could live a life of sin and spend your Eternity in Heaven. That would be for those whose Eternal Soul was worth more to them than Knowing and Loving their God.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jillianleab

This is a hat pin: hat pin - Google Image Search

I agree that argument only works if god is the biblical god; if god is the deist god, my argument fails on all levels. But we're talking (in this thread) about Christianity and the bible god.

The humanization of god is a big deterrent; I've never given much thought to deism, but if I were to believe in the existence of a god, it would probably be one of that sort. Still doesn't make my brain go, "yeah, that works" though! :)

---

I, too, and speaking of the Christian God... the Lord... the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, it is by those names that were given to us that He is humanized.

I believe in the Christian God but not one that stands above the clouds and screams from the Heavens...

I suppose it all falls into ones interpretation of the Bible and of God Himself ("Himself" yes, I know... I am guilty of the pronouns, too... but that is now we we have come to understand Him and the only way one is able to speak of Him lol)


And ahha! A hat pin... you learn something new every day ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

He's there whether you acknowledge Him or not.

---

I know YOU think that, but I don't. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrJizzle

I, too, and speaking of the Christian God... the Lord... the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, it is by those names that were given to us that He is humanized.

I believe in the Christian God but not one that stands above the clouds and screams from the Heavens...

I suppose it all falls into ones interpretation of the Bible and of God Himself ("Himself" yes, I know... I am guilty of the pronouns, too... but that is now we we have come to understand Him and the only way one is able to speak of Him lol)

---

Don't worry, I won't fault you for using gender-specifc and humanized pronouns; it's the easiest way to explain what you mean. :) You're right, it comes down to one's interpretation of the biblical god.

Quote:

---

and ahha! A hat pin... you learn something new every day

---

Glad I could teach you!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jillianleab

I know YOU think that, but I don't.

---

That's okay. He's tiptoeing around right now so as not to disturb you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrJizzle

ok... well, you seemed to miss the whole point of that post.

I believe what I said, which you QUOTED in your post, was, "My main beef with many Christians is their mindset." Thats not broad brushing every Christian in the world.

I was born and raised Christian in a very strict Christian home and have spent my life in the Church and serving in the Church... rehearsal, playing piano, keyboard, and guitar in worship, counseling at youth camps, and more...

The direction of this thread was to explain what it is about Christianity or Christians that turn people off of that religion. I explained exactly that.

I understand what the True purpose of Christianity is. I understand that there are many Christians out there that give wholeheartedly.

But I also understand that there are MANY MORE Christians that do what they are told to do in the Scripture because they want Heaven and dont want Hell.

My point was to reverse the roles... Imagine a world where Christianity taught us that by Knowing God and following His Word you would be doomed to Eternity in Hell... that would be the price that we all pay by devoted our Life to Him.

On the other hand, you could live a life of sin and spend your Eternity in Heaven. That would be for those whose Eternal Soul was worth more to them than Knowing and Loving their God.

---

Hello,


The Bible tells us that Heaven is being with God eternally and Hell is eternal separation from God, due to sin. So from my point of view, you get what you want, no matter the semantics.

How many want to be with God, out of FEAR of Hell, punishment?
How many want to be with God, for want of Heaven, pleasure?
How many people use this to manipulate others? I think a real complaint against SOME in organized religion.

Non believers can simply disregard this and go on.



How many want to love God, because He created us, loved us first?

How many want to serve or love others [ not because you'll go to Heaven if you do and Hell if you don't ] because it is the will of and pleasing to God?

:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jillianleab

I wondered if you would join in on this thread. :) You're right - it comes down to faith. Earlier in this thread it was mentioned to (pretty much) look around and one can see god; but that implies having faith. The "proofs" mentioned in the link I referenced are only "proof" if you then apply faith. To believe in a god, one must have faith.



An omnipotent one? :D If god can do anything, why CAN'T he prove himself using the scientific method? He controls everything anyway, so why not give someone the knowledge of some experiment to "prove god" and every time that experiment is performed, you get the same result? Then god IS proven using the scientific method, but only because he's allowing himself to be proven. Or are you forgetting that god can do whatever he wants, so if he wants to be proven by the scientific method, he can be? ;)

Or perhaps god would be one who wants everyone to believe because he wants everyone to be saved, and will do what it takes for them to believe, instead of sending muddled messages?

Stay with me here; lots of people use the parent/child analogy when describing god/people, so I'm going to do the same (put on your humor hat, please!)

We tell our children things in clear terms so they know what we want of them. We don't give them round about answers or commands; we don't say, "it would be nice if the dishwasher was empty", we say, "go empty the dishwasher".

So let's say you're my parent, and I'm about to stab my brother in the eye with a hat pin. MOST people don't do such a thing, but some people do. I'm going to do it unless you tell me, in clear, uncertain terms to NOT stab my brother in the eye. Instead of saying "Don't stab your brother in the eye!" (clear, uncertain terms), you say, "It's good to be nice to people" (rather ambiguous). So I stab my brother in the eye, and you get mad. I continue to go about stabbing people in the eye, because you just won't tell me not to. You KNOW what you need to say, but for whatever reason, you won't do it. Then, you punish me for it. Is this how we teach our children?

---

Jilleanleab

I believe that God becoming flesh in Jesus, suffering, being crucified, and resurrecting all to save us from sin is a pretty clear message. He was doing what it takes to save us.

There are the Ten commandments - they are pretty clear, no nuance there.

In fact the NT raises the bar:
lust = adultery
love your enemies
don't judge
forgive
anyone who hates his brother is a murderer
there is a list in 1 corinthians 6

a bunch of politically incorrect rights and wrongs.

The more you read and study the more daunting, ala Romans 7

and if anyone takes these things seriously, it strikes at our pride that we can't be perfect. that we don't measure up. I know I can't.



getting back to the op ?

I think that may be the Christian message that people object to.



Thank God for His Grace. :D



Also I do think that Atheists can be "good" even better than Christians in the eyes of their fellow human beings, but that is the human standard not God's.

Also I think Christian hypocrites turn people away fom the true Gospel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by inthebox

Also I do think that Atheists can be "good" even better than Christians in the eyes of their fellow human beings, but that is the human standard not God's.

Also I think Christian hypocrites turn people away fom the true Gospel.

---

I think both of these lines bear repeating. Being a Christian doesn't make you a good person, being an atheist doesn't make you a bad person (I'll qualify, like you did, in human eyes :)).

And yes, Christian hypocrites certainly turn people away. That's why I think the "beef" is with (some) Christians, not with (most of) the message.

As far as IM concerned, its true that most christians have forgotten the true roots of our beleifs. Id be lying if I say that I follow all the commadnds Jesus Christ left for humanity, but I really try to follow them, and I hope that with this post, the beleivers like me, will start to remember the roots of our beleifs. Because that baby that was born in Bethlehem 2000 years ago died for our sins, taking the weight of the world on his shoulders, freeing us from the horrible second death we were supposed to have, instead, he gave us the option to accept that he IS our saviour, and doing so would give us the privilege that, when we die, go to his kingdom, the kingdom of heaven and live without worries, illnesses and evil, forever