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Originally Posted by De Maria

Question for atheists but all are invited to join the discussion, especially Lobster mobster.

I don't want you to think I'm tricking you or anything. This is a serious question and one of the questions, the answer to which, helped me become Christian.

Now, Lob seems to like logic. And logically speaking, nothing from nothing is nothing. If there were no God where did everything come from? As I see it, nothing from nothing is nothing. If we had nothing before anything then we should have nothing now.

Sincerely,

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To get back to the original question at hand. You cannot use your logic because you logic is faulty. We don't have nothing from nothing and nothing. The argument is that we have SOMETHING FROM NOTHING THAT IS SOMETHING. If you are religious, you believe that some deity created all that is, SOMETHING FROM NOTHING. If you believe science we were created by matter that already existed and always has, SOMETHING FROM SOMETHING. You tell me what is more logical to believe, Something from Nothing, or Something from Something?

Religion has and always will be simply a way for people who cannot accept uncertainty to explain uncertainty. People will always be people and the always want to know "WHY?" From the time we can talk all we ask is "WHY?" People who believe in religion want an answer now because it comforts them even if it is a blind leap of faith. People who lean towards science are OK with not having an answer right now, because they are convinced that we will find it.

I think my Bald Headed Ex-Governor said it best "Organized religion is a crutch for weak minded people".

It is odd that the solution to the human condition of satisfying curiousity is solved by many simply by making up a story and having a little "faith".

THE BIBLE... the number one selling fiction writing of all time.

There is so much proof that there is a God, the God of the Bible. Lets say that there is a God even if you believe it is a crutch. When you die as will all of us at one time. You stand before an almighty and just God and he asks you why should I let you into heaven, what woud you say

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Originally Posted by ineedhelpfast

there is so much proof that there is a God, the God of the Bible. lets say that there is a God even if you believe it is a crutch. when you die as will all of us at one time. you stand before an almighty and just God and he asks you why should i let you into heaven, what woud you say

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I won't.


I will face the judgement of my Goddess, who will ask me what lessons I learned from my life, and whether I felt I lived to the best of my ability.

I will then be reincarnated to learn lessons in the next life that I didn't learn in this one.

Let's say you die, and there's NOT a god, and a chorus of angels, and heaven waiting for you--and the Goddess asks you why you've forsaken her. What will YOU do?

What proof? Seriously, I don't get it!

Why is the proof offered for evolution not good enough for creationists, yet they don't understand why the Bible isn't proof enough for those who don't believe?

I have no problem with creationism being taught as an elective, really--but honestly, I don't feel like paying taxes for Christianity based education, when I'm not Christian, and neither are ALL of the rest of the people in the US.

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Originally Posted by wewed100606

I think my Bald Headed Ex-Governor said it best "Organized religion is a crutch for weak minded people".

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I am so sorry you feel that way. I don't think I am weak minded, some times I feel I have no mind :p and then there are times I most definitely have a mind of my own. With me, religion, I feel in my heart. So, perhaps I am weak at heart and yes, I do agree with that.

It saddens me you feel that way and your Bald headed Ex-Govenor Lol :). Maybe if he believed there was a God, he would have hair :p Just kiddn... just kiddn honest. My hubby is bald and believes with all his heart.

By the way your picture is beautiful and breathtaking.

I hope someday you see us that do believe as other then weak. I know that some who believe are pushy and unkind in their words and damn all those who don't believe to hell.
I don't really undersand them myself. God is a loving God and would never want us to speak to one another like that.

Hope I am not off topic here.

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Originally Posted by wewed100606

To get back to the original question at hand. You cannot use your logic because you logic is faulty. We don't have nothing from nothing and nothing. The argument is that we have SOMETHING FROM NOTHING THAT IS SOMETHING. If you are religious, you believe that some diety created all that is, SOMETHING FROM NOTHING. If you believe science we were created by matter that already existed and always has, SOMETHING FROM SOMETHING. You tell me what is more logical to believe, Something from Nothing, or Something from Something?

Religion has and always will be simply a way for people who cannot accept uncertainty to explain uncertainty. People will always be people and the always want to know "WHY?" From the time we can talk all we ask is "WHY?" People who believe in religion want an answer now because it comforts them even if it is a blind leap of faith. People who lean towards science are OK with not having an answer right now, because they are convinced that we will find it.

I think my Bald Headed Ex-Governor said it best "Organized religion is a crutch for weak minded people".

It is odd that the solution to the human condition of satisfying curiousity is solved by many simply by making up a story and having a little "faith".

THE BIBLE...the number one selling fiction writing of all time.

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Karl marx said religion was the opium of the people, yet look at the history of atheistic states of USSR and China to see what the state sponsored elimination of religion does.


first law of thermodynamics - basically energy is conserved
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A materialistic view can never scientifically explain where this first source of energy comes from - they can plead ignorance because they have no proof or they can have 'faith' in a false belief.

A Christian believes God is the source of everything because He is all powerful and eternal and His creation depends on Him for life - - this is consistent with this law.


second law of thermodynamics
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basically:

1] that the entropy of the universe tends towards a maximum (in simple terms, entropy is a measure of disorder)
2] usable energy is running out
3] information tends to get scrambled
4] order tends towards disorder
5] a random jumble won’t organize itself


evolution basically states the humans consisting of coordinated multiple organ systems, consisting of multiple coordinated tissues, individual made up of billlions of cells, cells consist of billions or probably more of molecules that came from somewhere.

Think about that. The order of your body and mind coming from molecules just getting together over time? Evolution tells us this scenario is possible : building supplies, add tornado then wala a house is formed.

What kind of 'faith' does it take to believe in that?

"The open systems argument does not help evolution. Raw energy cannot generate the specified complex information in living things. Undirected energy just speeds up destruction. Just standing out in the sun won’t make you more complex—the human body lacks the mechanisms to harness raw solar energy. If you stood in the sun too long, you would get skin cancer, because the sun’s undirected energy will cause mutations. (Mutations are copying errors in the genes that nearly always lose information). Similarly, undirected energy flow through an alleged primordial soup will break down the complex molecules of life faster than they are formed."


The Bible tells us we will all die [ our physical bodies ] the ultimate state of disorder.
This is consistent with this law. Again Christians believe everything is possible with God.


As to comfort - how did Christianity spread despite persecution and death prior to Constantine? How is it spreading in China and Africa yet declining in "comfortable" Europe?

Everything in the Bible is about God, not yourself. Trust in, depend in, give everything to God. Do not envy, turn the other cheek , love your enemy, forgive, be sexually pure and faithful. There will be trials, suffering, temptations in life. ETc.

How comfortable are these concepts to the non-believer?


The Bible, God's word does offer something that science and Atheism can never offer:
Hope in the mercy, forgiveness and the love of God. :D

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Originally Posted by inthebox

The Bible, God's word does offer something that science and Atheism can never offer:
Hope in the mercy, forgiveness and the love of God. :D

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What does "hope in mercy" actually mean?
Forgiveness? Everyone has the capacity to forgive, no religion/god required.
Love of God? Why would an atheist care about that? Why would an atheist wish to worship anything?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

What does "hope in mercy" actually mean?
Forgiveness? Everyone has the capacity to forgive, no religion/god required.
Love of God? Why would an atheist care about that? Why would an atheist wish to worship anything?

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Hi NK - you were probably asking inthebox - but I hope you don't mind me answering too.
Sometimes by my answering, it clears things for me or reaffirms.

Hope in Mercy - For a believer - Hope in mercy means, that we hope God is merciful on us who have sinned. That he forgives us as long as we have confessed and are truly sorry.
So we hope and long for God's mercy.

But you are right, these things would not effect or enter to the beliefs of an atheist. Unless, I guess, they had an interest or a curiosity to know, so for their own knowledge sake.

But to answer your question, in my way, we as those who do believe, everyday hope for God's mercy and when a loved one passes we hope that they have asked and received God's mercy so they can be forgiven for those sins committed while on earth.

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Originally Posted by inthebox

A materialistic view can never scientifically explain where this first source of energy comes from - they can plead ignorance because they have no proof or they can have 'faith' in a false belief.

A Christian believes God is the source of everything because He is all powerful and eternal and His creation depends on Him for life - - this is consistent with this law.

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1. You still have the problem of where God came from. Also, God is violating the first law of thermodynamics because he is creating something out of nothing. Something that creates something out of nothing, even if they are all powerful, is breaking this law.

2. A materialistic view has absolutely no problem with accepting that there was equal energy now as there was at the big bang. Why does there need to be a "first sauce"? Couldn't it have always been? The God argument rests on the same fact that God could have always been.

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Originally Posted by inthebox

building supplies, add tornado then wala a house is formed.

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The tornado itself is proof that increasing entropy can seem to be violated if one doesn't look at the whole system. A tornado is formed by unpredictable and random winds, but somehow these form a stable structure.

BTW, It's voilà, not "wala", unless you're saying that Wala did it.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

Hope in Mercy - For a believer - Hope in mercy means, that we hope God is merciful on us who have sinned. That he forgives us as long as we have confessed and are truly sorry.
So we hope and long for God's mercy.

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H Allheart,
Thanks for the response. Based on this I was wondering, you say you hope for God's mercy, what happens when you don't get God's mercy?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

H Allheart,
Thanks for the response. Based on this I was wondering, you say you hope for God's mercy, what happens when you don't get God's mercy?

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You don't want to know that NK. :o Well, our belief is, and please I am not condeming people who don't. Just sharing our beleifs. Okay, It is our belief, that before we take our last breath and do not seek God's mercy, then we will not be able to get to heaven. Now, if we ask for God's merci and sincerely seek it, then we will always be given God's mercy.

By the way, I am uncomfortalble saying "our" because I wonder who I am talking for, so I will say... I have been taught and do believe.

I'll share a recent loss with you. My Uncle ( my Godfather ) just passed away. He was the most wonderful man alive and I am so grateful that he no longer is suffering.
Now my Uncle didn't really practice being Catholic, walked by many a church and kept on walking. Did he love God? I'm not really sure. Did he go to church. No. Was he raised to.. oh you bet.

Anyway, my Mom was in sheer panic to get him to open his heart to our Lord prior to his passing. My Mom took such good care of him. And when my Uncle was well he would yes my Mom to death about going to church.

Long story short, My Uncle did accept Jesus in his heart and asked for our Lord's mercy. NK, there was such a peach about him. When he passed, the moment he passed, he had a priest and two nuns at his side. It was beautiful.

I share this with you to kind of give you some insight on how much importance we put on asking God's forgiveness and receiving His mercy.

My Mom is so at peace too knowing my Uncle is resting, accepted our Lord and probably now is with my Grandmother, in heaven, looking down at my Mom, so very pleased and grateful.

Hope you don't mind me sharing but it was such a beautiful and peaceful transition and I think helps answer your question as far as what I believe.

Well I wasn't asking about our last seconds on earth, I was asking about your daily life. I can see how religion can be comforting to those that are uncomfortable with death, whatever gives them peace is OK of course.

Oh sorry. Daily life? Receiving mercy every day, what happens? I don't really think anything. I guess that's why I went to our last moments.

If you are wondering, do I believe, if we don't receive God's mercy on a daily basis, will He punish us? No, I do not believe that.

What I do believe is that on a daily basis He waits for us to ask for mercy.

I am so sorry I misunderstood. Sorry NK.

It's cool, don't worry. :)
So it seems that our daily lives are not that much different. What you call a sin I call a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes, that's how we learn, the key is not to repeat them. I don't believe anyone on this planet, no matter how devout, does not make mistakes.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

It's cool, don't worry. :)
So it seems that our daily lives are not that much different. What you call a sin I call a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes, that's how we learn, the key is not to repeat them. I don't believe anyone on this planet, no matter how devout, does not make mistakes.

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You are absolutely right. Our daily lives probably closley mirror each others, probably no different at all. High morals can be initated from many different resources.

And I do try not to make the same mistake, but somehow I get very creative and make a variety of different ones :).

No, we are not much different at all and in fact NK, I would only hope to hold some of the very strong morals that you do which comes through on many of your post. I mean that with the highest sincerety! I truly do.

Hello again:

There's another dynamic at work here. I'm not sure what it is.

When I was a kid in school, I loved experiencing those "ahaaa" moments. Do you know what I mean? It was the very moment when knowledge happened. It was when a problem I had in my head got solved – when a question got answered.

Now, I'm a curious soul, and I don't know why I had these questions roaming around in my head. Worse even, was my penchant for requiring proof. As you might have noticed, I'm an argumentative kind of guy. I NEVER accepted what anybody told me. As you might imagine, THAT caused me all sorts of trouble. However, in terms of science, that attitude has served me well.

So, back to the ahaaa moments. I love 'em. I don't know quite how to describe 'em. They're gorgeous. They're immensely satisfying. I seek them out as often as I can. I watch the Science Channel. I read science books. I read my computer manuals. I love this stuff. The only reason I don't want to die is because of all the discoveries that I'm never going to know about. I'm enthralled with it – even today.

And, I especially love those moments when somebody tells me THEY had one because of stuff I said. Those are the best ones. Inthebox gave me one recently. I remember it well.

So, I've been waiting for an ahaa moment from you Christians. I see now, that it ain't going to happen. Evolution has been explained in great detail. Cap is great at making it simple. Even dummy's could understand it, and you folks AREN'T dumb.

So, it isn't that you don't get it. Or that it hasn't been explained enough. It's that you don't want to get it. Something will happen to you if you do. I want to know what that is.

Is it that you get your ahaa moments in church and I get mine from a book? Oil and water, huh? I've been to church. When I was most vulnerable as a kid, I prayed to God long and hard. I really tried to do it. I never got an "ahaa" moment.

excon

excon you crack me up! I'll give you a ahhhhhhhhh moment all right! You are so brilliant as well as Cap. Just incredible and many others as well.

I wish like heck I could actually give you the ahaa moment. But excon, that comes from within, from within my heart. It's not logical thought.

The best way that I can explain to you or share with you something similar to the ahaa moment you speak of... is when I am in church, and I know I have done wrong, and I actually feel a presence, a loving presence, forgiving me and loving me in spite of all my flaws, in my heart I get that ahaa moment.

Spirital ahaa moments Ex, may just not be the same. They are so outside this thing we call life.

When do I get the ahaa moment? When I turn my mind off from life, from the reality of things, and turn my eyes and heart to all that is good, it is only then that I get that ahhaa moment.

( I stink at trying to share this Ex - but I'm trying )

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

1. You still have the problem of where God came from. Also, God is violating the first law of thermodynamics because he is creating something out of nothing. Somethign that creates somethign out of nothing, even if they are all powerful, is breaking this law.

2. A materialistic view has absolutely no problem with accepting that there was equal energy now as there was at the big bang. Why does there need to be a "first sauce"? Couldn't it have always been? The God argument rests on the same fact that God could have always been.



The tornado itself is proof that increasing entropy can seem to be violated if one doesnt look at the whole system. A tornado is formed by unpredictable and random winds, but somehow these form a stable structure.

BTW, It's voila, not "wala", unless you're saying that Wala did it.

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The tornado is not permanent and it causes disorder - the destruction of man's order.

If there does not need to be a first cause - how is tha believed in?

God makes the rules - the physical laws that science documents - He transcends them.

And yes voilà is correct. ;) thanks

Why does religion spread in places like China and Africa, but demise in flourishing areas like Europe? Is that a real question?

I'll bet that if the missionaries preached that God is responsible for why you and your family have suffered so much and why you are all dying from AIDS they wouldn't be converting. Religion prays on the people who need hope. Case and point. Along with the fact that you have welfare families giving dollars in collection plates to preachers who wear Rolex watches and drive Benzos. People in developed nations have began to realize that they are responsible for there own destiny. They don't need to pray to some abstract being in the sky to come down and help them. Like I said "Organized religion is a crutch for weak minded people."

And just for everyone out there, notice I said organized religion, not religion in general. I do not have a problem with people having their own belief systems and doing what they please. It is when they organize under false pretences to further their agendas and get rich. The church, is stupid, religion is not. It serves a purpose and helps people through hard times.

Here is a question for all you BELIEVERS out there: Why do people "thank god" when something goes right or something amazing happens, but if something bad happens no one flips him the bird?

I think that is unfair statement. Because I praise in hard times and bad times, its just whe the difficult times comes its easy to blame him like most people do. Like when 9/11 happened everyone was like wheres God even those who didn't believe. But when man succeeds he takes it on own account giving praise to himself not God. What ou said is kind of true when you said the poor need God more because in the bible its says that it easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. I don't have a religon, I have a relationship

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Originally Posted by wewed100606

Like I said "Organized religion is a crutch for weak minded people."

And just for everyone out there, notice I said organized religion, not religion in general.
Here is a question for all you BELIEVERS out there: Why do people "thank god" when something goes right or something amazing happens, but if something bad happens no one flips him the bird?

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Hi again wewed,

I am Catholic, which is an organized religion, and I still don't think I am weak minded. Too me, it's just one of the roads that help lead to God. That's pretty much how I view all different faiths, roads that lead to God.

As far as your question, I haven't a clue. I truly don't. I do thank God with all my heart when a blessing is received. But if something bad happens, I surely don't blame him.
For instance, my sister was in a car accident, and we all thanked God that she was fine. Some bumps and bruises but all and all yes, thank God she is alive and well and no, she was not angry at God for the accident, and neither were any of us. She wasn't pleased with the women who ran the red light and rammed into her car, but the women was so concerned for my sister and so sorry for the accident, that we all just forgave her of course and yes, we all thanked God, that everyone was okay.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

But if something bad happens, I surely don't blame him.

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I thinks that's his point, how come you don't blame him?

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Originally Posted by inthebox

The tornado is not permanent and it causes disorder - the destruction of man's order.

If there does not need to be a first cause - how is tha believed in?

God makes the rules - the physical laws that science documents - He transcends them.

And yes voila is correct. ;) thanks

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And there you have it. The tornado on it's own is full of order, but if you look at the whole system, there is disorder being created elsewhere.

Exactly the same as evolution and the Sun.

I don't know. I am being very honest. Never crossed my mind to.

I guess we look at the Lord as Our Father, Our heavenly Father. Who loves us and protects us. Similar in some ways to our earthly Father. So in that scenario, and this may be a stretch, but it is how I see it,

When a Dad works so hard, that now his family can enjoy a beautiful vacation to sunny wherever, and the family gleefully thanks Dad for making the vaction possible and off the go to sunny wherever. Now when it rains every day in sunny wherever, the family does not turn and blame good hard working Dad for the rain.

I guess I view it as blessings do come from the Father and to be quite honest, in each difficult time I can see God's loving hand either helping, guiding or supporting. So blame is never something that I would do or even think of doing.

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Originally Posted by Allheart

I don't know. I am being very honest. Never crossed my mind to.

I guess we look at the Lord as Our Father, Our heavenly Father. Who loves us and protects us. Similar in some ways to our earthly Father. So in that scenario, and this may be a stretch, but it is how I see it,

When a Dad works so hard, that now his family can enjoy a beautiful vacation to sunny wherever, and the family gleefully thanks Dad for making the vaction possible and off the go to sunny wherever. Now when it rains every day in sunny wherever, the family does not turn and blame good hard working Dad for the rain.

I guess I view it as blessings do come from the Father and to be quite honest, in each difficult time I can see God's loving hand either helping, guiding or supporting. So blame is never something that I would do or even think of doing.

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The only problem with your analogy is that you are talking about a human who can only control so much. My comment was pertaining to the fact that this all knowing, all powerful God of yours can prevent everything bad that happens, but doesn't. But that isn't his fault, the only things that are his fault are the good things!

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Originally Posted by wewed100606

The only problem with your analogy is that you are talking about a human who can only control so much. My comment was pertaining to the fact that this all knowing, all powerful God of yours can prevent everything bad that happens, but doesn't. But that isn't his fault, the only things that are his fault are the good things!?

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Bingo - Now you got it ! Move to the front of the class :D Just trying interject a chuckle.

You are right, you are very right, when things go wrong I do not blame him. Now in some very odd way, in each bad thing, in each thing that "goes wrong", there is a blessing of some sorts. So perhaps that is why I don't blame God.

Some times when "bad things" happen we don't know why at the time but sometimes the why is revealed later.

But honestly, and I am sorry for this, I don't have a firm answer as to why I don't blame God when things go wrong, I tend to blame myself as to why I didn't do things differently.

Would you want us to blame God? Or you are just curious as to why we don't?

I don't want to lectur you but I will say the reason people do bad things is cause we are evil, yes even the religious people. God gave us a free will and what we choose to do with it is completely up to us. But there is consequenses for what we do

I'm not evil, are you?

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Originally Posted by ineedhelpfast

i dont want to lectur you but i will say the reason peolpe do bad things is cause we are evil, yes even the religious peolpe. God gave us a free will and what we choose to do with it is completely up to us. but there is consequenses for what we do

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I agree with that, but with one very important exception. I don't think we are evil. I think we are all human and capable of doing good and capable of doing bad.

Do I think that there are those that have fallen so hard and so deeply that evil has entered their behaviour... Yes. And it is quite scarey. Evil is amongst us, but no I do not believe God's children are evil.

when someone does thing that you are just like what would posses them to do that, things like murder, rape, etc. the evil I'm referring to is the sin nature we are born with. The reason we don't know is simply because we are spiriually dead. This may be a little to deep but questions are welcome

I'm not born with a sin nature nor am I spiritually dead. Everyone makes mistakes. Some people are psychotic due to their upbringing or a brain defect but I don't believe Satan made them do it.

You see, its kind of hard to just type everything out, and not really talk, so I will try to explain this with the best of my ability. Basically if have never read the bible or don't believe in it, you won't understand until you ask God to show you

OK

That's basically a non-answer. It's back to the faith basis of your belief.

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Originally Posted by ineedhelpfast

you see, its kind of hard to just type everything out, and not really talk, so i will try to explain this with the best of my ability. basically if have never read the bible or dont believe in it, you wont understand until you ask God to show you

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I need, please don't take this wrong, but that is the kind of answer that makes people sometimes feel cold.

I know it is so hard to explain, I've struggled all day. But there is more ways for the Lord to enter one's heart than the bible.

At least that is what I think.

Correct

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Originally Posted by ineedhelpfast

you see, its kind of hard to just type everything out, and not really talk, so i will try to explain this with the best of my ability. basically if have never read the bible or dont believe in it, you wont understand until you ask God to show you

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Why SHOULD I ask your god to show me?

MY goddess has it in hand, thanks.

And the Bible? Written by men. I have as much faith in the Qaran, the Kama Sutra, The Complete Works of Shakespeare, The Oxford English Dictionary, and the Encyclopedia Britannica.

You don't have to, that's why I said its choice that we make, wheter to believe or not to

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Originally Posted by ineedhelpfast

you dont have to, thats why i said its choice that we make, wheter to believe or not to

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Hi Ineed - I do understand how hard it is to communicate the love of God, so don't feel bad.

How do the priest and nuns make it looks so easy. I guess they are a lot closer to it then I am.

Understanding the bible is so difficult and it is left up to so many interruptations. When I do pick it up, I hang out in Psalms -

Just letting you know, I do understand how difficult it is.

Thank you for your kindness

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Originally Posted by ineedhelpfast

thank you for your kindness

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And thank You for trying. And I think everyone appreciates you trying we all are feeling our way around together. As they say... It's all good :)