Ask Me Help Desk

Ask Me Help Desk (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forum.php)
-   Religious Discussions (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=485)
-   -   "Happy Holidays"? (https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showthread.php?t=154276)

  • Dec 4, 2007, 05:03 PM
    margog85
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Soldout
    I case you havnt noticed Christ is the reason for the season.

    Clichés make poor arguments. Just an FYI.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Soldout
    for those who are not Christian and hate Christians

    Since when does not celebrating the holidays of a religion one has no belief in make them hateful towards that religion? Christians don't celebrate Yom Kippur- can I then logically assume that they have a hatred of all things Jewish?

    Apparently, by your logic, I can. So shame on you, you anti-semite!

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Soldout
    Dont put decorations on your house, dont buy a christmas tree and dont get you kids presents and you can also go to work on the 25th.

    So, those are the perks of your holiday? Wow, I thought it was a celebration of the birth of your Savior- but now that I see the things a Christian points out as highlights of the holiday- decorations, presents, and a day off from work- heck, maybe I oughta convert. If that's what it's really all about, I mean... who wouldn't want that!

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Soldout
    i dont understand why other religions or athiests are trying to dilute a christian celebration by trying to make it their own by saying Happy holiday

    Hmm... the stealing of one religion's celebratory traditions and adapting them to different systems of beliefs... interesting that something along those lines would offend you. Google 'pagan roots of Christmas traditions' and see what you come up with. Would you pay any mind to a Pagan complaining about you diluting their holiday and usurping their traditions?

    Not that that's the reason people say 'Happy Holidays' anyway... but more on that below.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Soldout
    What is the Holiday for, i will tell you it is about the birth of our savior.

    For your holiday, yes, that's what it is about. Well sort of. It's actually more of a celebration of the incarnation, God become human- not really the 'happy birthday, jesus' celebration so many Christians choose to celebrate. But in any case, it is critical that you recognize that while that is what YOUR holiday may be about, it is not the only holiday celebrated this time of year, and it is NOT the reason for all other holidays this time of year. Making that assumption is not really the best way to present yourself as an intelligent person.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Soldout
    If you dont beleive in Him & it bothers you, lock yourself up in your house and cpme out on the 26th when the season is over.

    Not bothered by Christmas itself, but rather by the insistence that everyone wish everyone, regardless of actual religious belief, a 'Merry Christmas'- doesn't that seem quite foolish, and actually cause the meaning of your holiday to be further diminished? Saying specific words to one another does not cause people to come to a deeper recognition of the meaning of your holiday- would you be happy if the phrase 'Merry Christmas' gradually became as generic a wish as 'Happy Holidays'? Wishing a 'happy holiday' includes those whose religious beliefs you may not know (i.e. a store associate speaking to a customer). Wish your Christian friends, Christian family members, and fellow church-goers a Merry Christmas. But why force words upon others to whom they have no significance? Is it really the intent of Christians to drain all meaning from their holiday all together?

    Apparently so.
  • Dec 4, 2007, 06:07 PM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    margog85 disagrees: Anti-christian bigotry or a generalization based on observation and interaction?
    You admit you are bigotted against Christians. Thanks for the admission.

    Quote:

    Maybe not all Christians- but I believe you and Soldout fit quite nicely into that category.
    Yes, I am Christian.

    Quote:

    And people like ME make you feel victimized
    You said it yourself.

    Quote:

    ? Hahaha- your'e joking, right?
    Are you?
  • Dec 4, 2007, 06:24 PM
    Goldenwolf
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by labman
    Once Thanksgiving is over, I will begin celebrating the birth of my Savior. If that offends anybody, well there is a lot that offends me.

    That's totally true
    I mean, He saved our lives
  • Dec 4, 2007, 08:46 PM
    margog85
    De Maria

    Just an FYI, I am no longer responding to your posts beyond this point. You take what I say out of context, twist the meaning, and respond with sarcasm... it has become increasingly clear that if I am looking for intelligent debate, it cannot be had with you-

    I was mildly entertained by your ignorance for a time, but now you're simply becoming irritating.

    So please, do not interpret my lack of response as you having made a point or left me with nothing to say. It has just reached a point where I no longer wish to engage in this circular discourse with you.

    HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!
  • Dec 5, 2007, 11:26 AM
    Soldout
    Quote:

    Clichés make poor arguments. Just an FYI.
    Lol.. the cliché actually fit perfectly with my argument. I could not have found a better way to articulate it. Jesus is the reason for the season amen! So those who don't like it to bad so sad.

    Quote:

    Since when does not celebrating the holidays of a religion one has no belief in make them hateful towards that religion? Christians don't celebrate Yom Kippur- can I then logically assume that they have a hatred of all things Jewish?

    Apparently, by your logic, I can. So shame on you, you anti-semite!
    Mmm.. I don't think you understand what I meant. I was actually directing that you, not so much people in general because it quite obvious that you have some hatred and bitterness towards the Christmas holiday and it is most probably because you hate christians just like rest of the world does. But I am not mad at you, for that, noo.. Jesus said just as he was hated so will we, His followers, be hated so I am not the least bit surprised. When other religions celebrate their holidays Ramadan, yom kippur etc and they do their rituals no one cares but when Christians want to celebrate their holiday people make such a big deal about it. Why don't you call Yom kippur and Ramadan "happy Holiday"? If a store does not want to remain nuetral then they should not say happy holiday either. I think that is fair enough. And by the way, I am not an anti-semite my best friend is Jewish and as Christians we are called to love and pray for the Jews. Our savior is a Jew! So if you want to continue to have an intelligent adult discussion about this issue, I think you need to stop your unwarranted name calling and revise the terms of use of this website.


    Quote:

    So, those are the perks of your holiday? Wow, I thought it was a celebration of the birth of your Savior- but now that I see the things a Christian points out as highlights of the holiday- decorations, presents, and a day off from work- heck, maybe I oughta convert. If that's what it's really all about, I mean... who wouldn't want that!
    Yes! Those are the perks of our holiday! Duh yes that is how we celebrate the birth of our savior. Gift giving, feeding the poor, christmas trees, christmas lights, day off from work (love that) getting together with family, singing christmas carrols e.t.c. It's the most wonderful time of the year! The highlight and the reason for this celebration is the precious Son of God and we sing praises to Him and celebrate his birth. Maybe you should convert, you will love it, you won't be disappointed.


    Quote:

    Hmm... the stealing of one religion's celebratory traditions and adapting them to different systems of beliefs... interesting that something along those lines would offend you. Google 'pagan roots of Christmas traditions' and see what you come up with. Would you pay any mind to a Pagan complaining about you diluting their holiday and usurping their traditions?
    At least the pagons had a reason for the holiday. Not just "happy holiday" for no reason.



    Quote:

    For your holiday, yes, that's what it is about. Well sort of. It's actually more of a celebration of the incarnation, God become human- not really the 'happy birthday, jesus' celebration so many Christians choose to celebrate. But in any case, it is critical that you recognize that while that is what YOUR holiday may be about, it is not the only holiday celebrated this time of year, and it is NOT the reason for all other holidays this time of year. Making that assumption is not really the best way to present yourself as an intelligent person.
    If you didn't know this, I hate to be the one to break this to you but Thanksgiving was actually established to give thanks to GOD. So every time you eat that turkey remember that. (It may not taste very good anymore) And if you are talking about New years Holiday then people should just say Happy New Year, why complicate things and cause controversy for nothing.


    Quote:

    Not bothered by Christmas itself, but rather by the insistence that everyone wish everyone, regardless of actual religious belief, a 'Merry Christmas'- doesn't that seem quite foolish, and actually cause the meaning of your holiday to be further diminished? Saying specific words to one another does not cause people to come to a deeper recognition of the meaning of your holiday- would you be happy if the phrase 'Merry Christmas' gradually became as generic a wish as 'Happy Holidays'? Wishing a 'happy holiday' includes those whose religious beliefs you may not know (i.e. a store associate speaking to a customer). Wish your Christian friends, Christian family members, and fellow church-goers a Merry Christmas. But why force words upon others to whom they have no significance? Is it really the intent of Christians to drain all meaning from their holiday all together?
    The store clerks can just say Happy new year if they want to stay neutral. Because what ever you want to call it "Happy holidays" or "Happy Cup Cake" we all know what the underlying holiday is about. Its about the birth of Christ. So its just like saying I am not going to say to people Happy 4th July I am just going to say "happy holiday". You can call it "happy holiday" if you want but is does not change the fact that it is independence day. So the bottom line is no one is forced to participate in the Christmas cheer if you don't want to. If someone says merry christmas to you, just don't respond.
  • Dec 5, 2007, 11:43 AM
    Soldout
    Quote:

    True, Christmas is the Christian celebration of the incarnation- however, other holidays are celebrated this time of year. Why does Christmas deserve specific recognition above all other holidays? Why assume it is what someone else is celebrating
    Christmas has special recognition, it always has and always will. Get over it. 7 out of 10 people you will meet in america are christian and more than 1 of 3 people you will meet in the whole world are Christians. Christmas is celebrated everywhere around the world so you need to just get over your bitterness towards it. Stop worrying about it and just be glad you get a day off on Dec 25.
  • Dec 5, 2007, 12:24 PM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Soldout
    Christmas is celebrated everywhere around the world so you need to just get over your bitterness towards it. stop worrying about it and just be glad you get a day off on Dec 25.

    I hate to burst your bubble but most people celebrate Christmas not because of Jesus but because of Santa and gifts for children.
  • Dec 5, 2007, 01:06 PM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by margog85
    De Maria

    Just an FYI, I am no longer responding to your posts beyond this point.

    That is fine. I'd simply like to clarify the following:

    Quote:

    You take what I say out of context, twist the meaning, and respond with sarcasm... it has become increasingly clear that if I am looking for intelligent debate, it cannot be had with you-
    No. I quoted you verbatim. You made an anti-Christian remark. Lets see it again:

    Quote:

    margog85 agrees: Apparently, it is the Christian way. To be condescending, self-righteous, and always see the ways they are 'victimized' by society.
    Show me the twist? Oh, I forgot, you ain't responding.

    Quote:

    I was mildly entertained by your ignorance for a time, but now you're simply becoming irritating.
    Yeah, yeah. What irritates you is that you want everyone to agree with your anti-Christian agenda. But I won't.

    Quote:

    So please, do not interpret my lack of response as you having made a point or left me with nothing to say. It has just reached a point where I no longer wish to engage in this circular discourse with you.
    I reserve the right to address your anti-Christian comments.

    Quote:

    HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!
    Everyday is a holiday.

    Bye
  • Dec 5, 2007, 02:52 PM
    margog85
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Soldout
    lol.. the cliche actually fit perfectly with my argument. I could not have found a better way to articulate it. Jesus is the reason for the season amen! so those who dont like it to bad so sad.

    I understand that Jesus is the reason for YOUR holiday. But not all holidays this time of year. Your cliché may make be true for your as a Christian- Jesus being a reason for the Christmas season- but Jesus hasn't got a thing to do with other holidays being celebrated.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Soldout
    mmm.. i dont think you understand what i meant. I was actually directing that you, not so much people in general because it quite obvious that you have some hatred and bitterness towards the Christmas holiday and it is most probably because you hate christians just like rest of the world does. but i am not mad at ya, for that, noo.. Jesus said just as he was hated so will we, His followers, be hated so i am not the least bit surprised. When other religions celebrate thier holidays Ramadan, yom kippur etc and they do their rituals no one cares but when Christians want to celebrate their holiday people make such a big deal about it.

    Just to make this clear, I have no hatred towards Christians. I, like anyone else, become irritated by self-righteous, arrogant, and condescending individuals, regardless of their religious beliefs. Based on experience, I tend to find that the majority of people I've encountered who embody those traits also identify as Christian- and many of the posts within this discussion have simply reinforced that and provided more examples of nasty, sarcastic, and self-righteous Christians who refuse to consider an alternate perspective.

    That is not hatred or bigotry or bitterness- I have nothing against Christmas and I do not hate Christians- You can celebrate your holiday all you like- my point is, not everyone needs to recognize your holiday specifically when there are other people celebrating other holidays at this time- How can you expect a store associate to know from a brief encounter that you are a Christian and you are celebrating Christmas? Rather than make the assumption and exclude others, 'Happy Holdiays' is more suitable- just a general wishing of a pleasant season and enjoyment in your celebration of whichever holiday you choose to celebrate- why that is such an issue makes no sense to me.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Soldout
    Yes! Those are the perks of our holiday! duh yes that is how we celebrate the birth of our savior. Gift giving, feeding the poor, christmas trees, christmas lights, day off from work (love that) getting together with family, singing christmas carrols e.t.c. Its the most wonderful time of the year! The highlight and the reason for this celebration is the precious Son of God and we sing praises to Him and celebrate his birth. Maybe you should convert, you will love it, you wont be disappointed.

    Christmas is the best time of the year? Really? Better than Easter, then? Aren't both equally important to Christians? The incarnation of God in human flesh and blood, an individual who is equally human and divine… and then His death and resurrection for the atonement of sin and reconciliation of man and God?

    But hey… maybe to some Christians, Christmas is 'better'. Not many people exchange Easter presents, right? And if the perks of this holiday outweigh the perks of Easter (just a day off, no decorations or presents) then I guess it's better and more important, hmm?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Soldout
    Atleast the pagons had a reason for the holiday. Not just "happy holiday" for no reason.

    'Happy Holidays' is not without reason- it's simply something said by an individual who declines to make an assumption in regards to the religious belief of the person they are wishing it to.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Soldout
    If you didnt know this, i hate to be the one to break this to you but Thanksgiving was actually established to give thanks to GOD. So everytime you eat that turkey remember that. (It may not taste very good anymore) And if you are talking about New years Holiday then people should just say Happy New Year, why complicate things and cause controversy for nothing.

    Ummm… okay, well, if you didn't know this, then I hate to break it to you, but there are other religious and cultural celebrations at this time of year as well- not everyone is celebrating only Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years and nothing else. For example: Hannukah (Jewish), Bodhi Day (Buddhist), Eid-al-Adha (Muslim), Kwanza (African-American), Yule (Pagan)…. So the controversy isn't for 'nothing'- unless you consider others' religious beliefs to be insignificant. Is that the case?
  • Dec 5, 2007, 04:36 PM
    margog85
    De Maria-

    Although I said I would no longer respond to you, you asked for clarification, which I will gladly provide. You accused me of anti-Christian bigotry and cite my ‘admission’ of such bigotry when I made the following statement:

    "Anti-christian bigotry or a generalization based on observation and interaction?"

    That is not an admission to an anti-christian bigotry. It is a statement indicating that my experiences with Christians have provided me with the perspective I now have. I hold nothing against the Christian religion itself- and I respect and admire many Christians who are respectful of others and lack the self-righteous edge that you so proudly display.

    So, if you want to know where you are twisting things, there's example number one. And, as for this quote:

    margog85 agrees: Apparently, it is the Christian way. To be condescending, self-righteous, and always see the ways they are 'victimized' by society.


    This is simply a comment I had made in response to the way the Christians, particularly you, have conducted themselves in this discussion. This is an example of taking things out of context and twisting them as you see fit to make yourself look better and me look like a disrespectful bigot- meanwhile, my entire argument throughout this thread is advocating respect for all religions at this time of year by wishing a generic Happy Holidays if you just don’t know what the other person celebrates.

    Why is that such a terrible thing to stand for?

    Inclusion and respect are apparently not values you hold in very high esteem.
  • Dec 5, 2007, 05:37 PM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by margog85
    De Maria-

    Although I said I would no longer respond to you, you asked for clarification, which I will gladly provide. You accused me of anti-Christian bigotry and cite my ‘admission’ of such bigotry when I made the following statement:

    "Anti-christian bigotry or a generalization based on observation and interaction?"

    Correct.

    Quote:

    That is not an admission to an anti-christian bigotry. It is a statement indicating that my experiences with Christians have provided me with the perspective I now have
    That is bigotry. You are generalizing based upon your limited knowledge.

    Let me give you an example. When slave owners owned African slaves, they called them lazy because slaves were reluctant to work for nothing and disliked being whipped when they inadvertently did something wrong. Slave owners were bigotted because they made a generalization based on their limited knowledge of African people.

    In the same way, you come to the Christianity forum and attack Christianity and Christians in every way and when Christians defend themselves, why according to you, they're cndescending, self-righteous and paranoid. You have made a bigotted statement based on your limited knowledge.

    Now, I could see if we or especially I, had gone to your atheist or whatever forum and started harassing you. But I didn't.

    Quote:

    I hold nothing against the Christian religion itself- and I respect and admire many Christians who are respectful of others and lack the self-righteous edge that you so proudly display.
    In other words, as long as Christians listen to you quietly, you don't mind them being around. But as soon as Christian defend their beliefs, why they're self righteous and rude.

    Quote:

    So, if you want to know where you are twisting things, there's example number one. And, as for this quote:
    It was a rhetorical question. I had highlighted to those who may be following this discussion that I had not twisted your words as you made it appear. In fact, you are the one constantly portraying yourself as being victimized.

    Quote:

    margog85 agrees: Apparently, it is the Christian way. To be condescending, self-righteous, and always see the ways they are 'victimized' by society.

    This is simply a comment I had made in response to the way the Christians, particularly you, have conducted themselves in this discussion.
    I believe I have conducted myself admirably. Unlike you, I don't make up words and put them in anyone's mouth. I have simply responded to your exact words.

    Quote:

    This is an example of taking things out of context and twisting them as you see fit to make yourself look better and me look like a disrespectful bigot-
    No, its an example of your portraying yourself as a victim.

    Quote:

    meanwhile, my entire argument throughout this thread is advocating respect for all religions at this time of year by wishing a generic Happy Holidays if you just don’t know what the other person celebrates.
    And my entire argument is that everyone can vote with their dollars. But somehow you've twisted that into disrespect of all religions except Christianity?

    Quote:

    Why is that such a terrible thing to stand for?
    And I could ask you the same thing. Why is it such a terrible thing to stand for Christianity?

    Hey lady, you can stand for whatever you want. Just don't expect me to agree if it is an anti-Christian stance.

    Quote:

    Inclusion
    Oh, I see. You want Christians to say, "Oh no, you're right and we're right and everyone is right." Nope. There is such a thing as truth. If you believe you have the truth, then by all means, stand up for it. But Christ is the real Truth and that's who I stand up for.

    When you understand these words, you'll have no more trouble with Christians:

    Matthew 12
    23 He that is not with me, is against me; and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

    Matthew 10
    38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.

    I follow Jesus. I don't care if anyone excludes me from anything else and I don't want to be included in anything that is anti-Christian.

    Quote:

    and respect are apparently not values you hold in very high esteem.
    On the contrary. I respect people enough to read their messages and respond to what they actually say. Unlike you.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Dec 6, 2007, 09:03 AM
    Soldout
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    I hate to burst your bubble but most people celebrate Christmas not because of Jesus but because of Santa and gifts for children.

    If 76%+ of americans are Christains I hate to burst your bubble that they are celebrating Jesus' birth; the traditional outward expresion is giving gifts, santa, christmas lights tree e.t.c (love it!) and FYI.. lol Santa is "St Nicholas" a christian Saint so next time you take your kids to see him, remember the implication. :)
  • Dec 6, 2007, 09:09 AM
    NeedKarma
    That history has been completely lost. To wit: most cities have a santa Claus parade, not a Jesus parade. The santa in the mall never has any religious overtones. The celebration of Jesus' birth does indeed happen in the churches but that's about it, what happens outside of there is linked to the commercial aspect and is done for the children.
  • Dec 6, 2007, 09:45 AM
    Soldout
    Quote:

    Just to make this clear, I have no hatred towards Christians. I, like anyone else, become irritated by self-righteous, arrogant, and condescending individuals, regardless of their religious beliefs. Based on experience, I tend to find that the majority of people I’ve encountered who embody those traits also identify as Christian- and many of the posts within this discussion have simply reinforced that and provided more examples of nasty, sarcastic, and self-righteous Christians who refuse to consider an alternate perspective.

    That is not hatred or bigotry or bitterness- I have nothing against Christmas and I do not hate Christians- You can celebrate your holiday all you like- my point is, not everyone needs to recognize your holiday specifically when there are other people celebrating other holidays at this time- How can you expect a store associate to know from a brief encounter that you are a Christian and you are celebrating Christmas? Rather than make the assumption and exclude others, ‘Happy Holdiays’ is more suitable- just a general wishing of a pleasant season and enjoyment in your celebration of whichever holiday you choose to celebrate- why that is such an issue makes no sense to me.
    So I just don't get it, if christians are really self righteous, arrogant, and condescending individuals then why are you on the Christian domain of the cite. Why don't you spend more time on the other hundred of topics out there on this site. Why come and judge and harass Christians about what they believe? We don't have any problems with people celebrating there own religions but the reason why christmas is more prominent is because it hold the largest majority of people & in a democracy majority rules. It just like if I decided to go live in a predominantly Muslim country, I am not going to take offence when they celebrate their holidays and put up icons that represent their beliefs. I am not going to start demanding that they consider that I am christian and have them show as much prominence for my religion to make it "fair". If you live in America you have to come to terms with the fact that it is a predominantly Christian society and if that really bothers you, there are plenty of other countries that are more dominantly athiestic, or budist of Jewish or Muslim etc So people should go where they are comfortable. I know if I grew up in country that was mostly muslim I would not like it there, I know I would migrate somewhere else. So I am tiered of people whining about Christians and attcking them constantly in this country.

    Quote:

    Christmas is the best time of the year? Really? Better than Easter, then? Aren’t both equally important to Christians? The incarnation of God in human flesh and blood, an individual who is equally human and divine… and then His death and resurrection for the atonement of sin and reconciliation of man and God?
    Quote:

    But hey… maybe to some Christians, Christmas is ‘better’. Not many people exchange Easter presents, right? And if the perks of this holiday outweigh the perks of Easter (just a day off, no decorations or presents) then I guess it’s better and more important, hmm?
    It is obviously the biggest Christian celebration because it marks the Birth of our savior and everything else that follows is equally important.





    Quote:

    Ummm… okay, well, if you didn’t know this, then I hate to break it to you, but there are other religious and cultural celebrations at this time of year as well- not everyone is celebrating only Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years and nothing else. For example: Hannukah (Jewish), Bodhi Day (Buddhist), Eid-al-Adha (Muslim), Kwanza (African-American), Yule (Pagan)…. So the controversy isn’t for ‘nothing’- unless you consider others’ religious beliefs to be insignificant. Is that the case?
    Umm.. okey Like I said all these people are can celebrate their holidays, but should not take offence to Christmas being the most prominent because most these groups individaully represent a fraction of a percentage of the US population.
  • Dec 6, 2007, 10:05 AM
    Soldout
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    That history has been completely lost. To wit: most cities have a santa Claus parade, not a Jesus parade. The santa in the mall never has any religious overtones. The celebration of Jesus' birth does indeed happen in the churches but that's about it, what happens outside of there is linked to the commercial aspect and is done for the children.

    Like I said, think about the implication of santa "St Nic". You have convinced yourself that Santa has no Christian overtones so that you can include yourself and your kids in the Chrismas celebration without feeling like a complete hypocryt. So if pretending santa has no Christian over tones helps you feel better about enjoying the perks of Christmas then good for you. HO HO HO Merry CHRIST-mas :D
  • Dec 6, 2007, 10:09 AM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    That history has been completely lost.

    Sounds like wishful thinking. All you have to do is watch the Peanuts Christmas cartoon and Linus will explain to you the reason for Christmas.

    Quote:

    To wit: most cities have a santa Claus parade, not a Jesus parade.
    Most cities. But in every city, Christians pray and sing joyous songs explaining the reason for our joy. In fact, much of what we do in our celebrations is in our churches. I'm sure you'll find a reason to object to that as well.

    Quote:

    The santa in the mall never has any religious overtones.
    Never is a very strong word. The very word "Santa" means Saint. In fact, Santa Clause is derivative of Saint Nicholas, a canonized Saint of the Catholic Church. His very presence in a Red Suit and Camauro Hat signifies that he was a Bishop of the Catholic Church in his life.

    Quote:

    The celebration of Jesus' birth does indeed happen in the churches but that's about it, what happens outside of there is linked to the commercial aspect and is done for the children.
    Not so. Note the Christmas decorations at this major department store. Many of which include religious icons:
    JCPenney department

    Same here:
    Macy*s - Search Results

    And the nativity float at the Christmas parades:

    YouTube - LH parade nativity float

    Nativity float steals show : Local News : The Rocky Mountain News

    Lutheran Hour float brings "Joy to the World" in 2008 Rose Parade > South Wisconsin District of The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod > News

    The true meaning of Christmas is far from forgotten history.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Dec 6, 2007, 10:17 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Soldout
    Like i said, think about the implication of santa "St Nic". You have convinced yourself that Santa has no Christian overtones so that you can include yourself and your kids in the Chrismas celebration without feeling like a complete hypocryt. So if pretending santa has no Christian over tones helps you feel better about enjoying the perks of Christmas then good for you. HO HO HO Merry CHRIST-mas :D

    Actually you have it the wrong way around. I and my family fully know from the onset that there is no link to religion at all with the Santa thing, how could they, they've never been exposed to it. But many a religious christian celebrates Christmas the same way I do - now that where the hypocrisy comes in.
  • Dec 6, 2007, 10:18 AM
    NeedKarma
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria

    The true meaning of Christmas is far from forgotten history.

    That not what I was saying but thank you for your input.
  • Dec 6, 2007, 11:10 AM
    Soldout
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    Actually you have it the wrong way around. I and my family fully know from the onset that there is no link to religion at all with the Santa thing, how could they, they've never been exposed to it. But many a religious christian celebrates Christmas the same way I do - now that where the hypocrisy comes in.

    Correction You and your family WISH from the onset there is no link to religion with Santa thing... lol are you serious right now. You may not have told your children the underlying implication of what they are doing. So just because you choose deliberate concealment and misrepresentation of the true meaning behind perks of christmas does not mean it does not exist. You have adapted to doing the things that were traditionally created to celebrate the Birth of a God you don't believe in, so you are the hypocryt and your kids will find out sooner or later what the underlying reason is. I sure hope you don't have an angel or a star on top of your Christmas tree because that actually represents the Star of Bethleham that led the wise men to Jesus. And when you tell your kids santa got them gifts just remember, that is a Christian tradition that was derived from St Nicholas a catholic saint who brought gifts for poor children on Christmas. So if you are true atheist you really should not participate in Christmas light, trees gift giving, Santa e.t.c because all you are doing is sending mixed messages to your children.
  • Dec 6, 2007, 11:40 AM
    NeedKarma
    Here, let me help you a bit, here is the definition of hypocrite:
    1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
    2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

    I am doing neither since I'm not putting on any false appearances of religion nor am I acting in contradiction of my stated beliefs.

    I can put an angel at the top of my tree or hit my thumb and yell out "Jesus Christ!" and neither is related to religion. Weird huh? You seem to believe that your belief is the basis for every Christmas ritual. Celebrating the winter solstice has been going on since before there even was such a thing as christianity: Solstice a Cause for Celebration Since Ancient Times

    " Many more people observe the solstice while participating in modern holidays—even if they do not always realize the connection.... "As the Christmas celebration moved west," Yeide said "the date that had traditionally been used to celebrate the winter solstice became sort of available for conversion to the observance of Christmas. In the Western church, the December date became the date for Christmas."
    Traditional solstice celebrations existed in many cultures. The Roman feast of Saturnalia, honoring the God Saturn, was a weeklong December feast that included the observance of the winter solstice. Romans also celebrated the lengthening of days following the solstice by paying homage to Mithra—an ancient Persian god of light. "
  • Dec 6, 2007, 12:44 PM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    Here, let me help you a bit, here is the definition of hypocrite:
    1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
    2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

    I am doing neither since I'm not putting on any false appearances of religion nor am I acting in contradiction of my stated beliefs.

    I can put an angel at the top of my tree or hit my thumb and yell out "Jesus Christ!" and neither is related to religion. Weird huh? You seem to believe that your belief is the basis for every Christmas ritual. Celebrating the winter solstice has been going on since before there even was such a thing as christianity: Solstice a Cause for Celebration Since Ancient Times

    " Many more people observe the solstice while participating in modern holidays—even if they do not always realize the connection.... "As the Christmas celebration moved west," Yeide said "the date that had traditionally been used to celebrate the winter solstice became sort of available for conversion to the observance of Christmas. In the Western church, the December date became the date for Christmas."
    Traditional solstice celebrations existed in many cultures. The Roman feast of Saturnalia, honoring the God Saturn, was a weeklong December feast that included the observance of the winter solstice. Romans also celebrated the lengthening of days following the solstice by paying homage to Mithra—an ancient Persian god of light. "

    Pretty weird response. Was the "solstice" born in a stable and laid in a manger? I didn't think so.

    Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. If you wish to celebrate the solstice, it would be mighty funny doing it by singing Joy to the World the Lord has come.. or Come all ye faithful... or by yelling Jesus Christ at the top of your lungs.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Dec 6, 2007, 01:30 PM
    michealb
    First, about Christians saying that this forum is for christians only. I didn't see a sign on the door if the admins would like to add one. I'll gladly stay out. Otherwise I view this as a board of opinions and I am just as free to give mine as any fundy.

    Second
    De Maria I think you need to study history a bit more before you go around saying that Christmas traditions are christian in origin. The early germans before they were christionized had a festival at Yule. This festival was to celebrate the great hunt of Odin(the god of the germans at the time also a large man with a white beard). The children would put their boots by the fireplace and fill them with carrots, straw and sugar for Odin's flying horse. In return Odin would leave the children presents for the kindness that they had done. Sounds familiar doesn't it. Didn't you ever wonder what St. Nick and the tree have to do with the birth of Christ?
  • Dec 6, 2007, 03:13 PM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by michealb
    First, about Christians saying that this forum is for christians only.

    If you are referring to me, please read what I actually said. NonChristians on this topic have shown a nasty tendency to make up arguments and attribute them to others in order to shoot them down.

    Quote:

    I didn't see a sign on the door if the admins would like to add one. I'll gladly stay out. Otherwise I view this as a board of opinions and I am just as free to give mine as any fundy.
    And so are we. My complaint was directed at a nonChristian who objected to my defense of Christianity on a Christian forum.

    Quote:

    Second
    De Maria I think you need to study history a bit more before you go around saying that Christmas traditions are christian in origin.
    I think you need to study up on real history if you believe that cacamaimie nonChristian spin on history.

    Quote:

    The early germans before they were christionized had a festival at Yule.
    Yule, the winter solstice, is not Christmas. Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ. We do no celebrate the winter solstice. We celebrate the birth of Christ.

    Quote:

    This festival was to celebrate the great hunt of Odin(the god of the germans at the time also a large man with a white beard). The children would put their boots by the fireplace and fill them with carrots, straw and sugar for Odin's flying horse. In return Odin would leave the children presents for the kindness that they had done. Sounds familiar doesn't it. Didn't you ever wonder what St. Nick and the tree have to do with the birth of Christ?
    No. I've never wondered about that.
    1. As I explained before. St. Nick is St. Nicholas. He is a verifiable person who was once Bishop of Myra:
    Saint Nicholas ::: A Real Person?

    2. I actually enjoyed reading Norse mythology when I was young. But I knew it was fiction.

    3. The Christmas tree and the yule log are two different traditions. They are related to Christ birth only in the fact that Christians decided to use these ornaments to celebrate the birth of Christ.

    4. The giving of gifts to children during Christmas is an ancient custom amongst Christians derived from the fact that the three Kings brought gifts to the baby Jesus.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Dec 6, 2007, 04:53 PM
    michealb
    I thought giving gifts at Christmas was from St. Nick who became a saint because he was generous to the poor in particular children. We don't have 3 wise men who bring gifts on Christmas. Why are you celebrating a catholic saint anyway? Why is norse mythology any less true than Christian mythology? Did you know that in 1208 Odin was seen leading the charge of the Scandinavians against the Danish army. The Scandinavains won the battle thanks to Odin that day.

    Back on topic though Christians are free to shop where ever they wish this Holiday season. I am free to shop where I wish. Since this is a private non government matter you can have all the Merry Christmas you can get as far as I'm concerned. Personally I think it is selfish to not want to include everyone this holiday season but I guess wanting to include people of all faiths and backgrounds is part of my morals and not christian morals.
  • Dec 6, 2007, 05:40 PM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by michealb
    I thought giving gifts at Christmas was from St. Nick who became a saint because he was generous to the poor in particular children.

    The tradition of giving gifts on Christmas predates St. Nick.

    Quote:

    We don't have 3 wise men who bring gifts on Christmas.
    Yes, we do. It is an old and cherished Christmas tradition. In many Christian countries, Santa was unknown until recently. In those countries, the Three Kings brought the gifts.

    Quote:

    Why are you celebrating a catholic saint anyway?
    On Christmas, we observe and celebrate the birth of Christ. The Saints are examples of how Christmas should be observed and celebrated.

    Quote:

    Why is norse mythology any less true than Christian mythology?
    I believe that is way beyond the scope of this topic. Suffice to say that there is no evidence that the Norse myths are true.

    Christian history is not mythology. It is documented history with eyewitness testimony.

    Quote:

    Did you know that in 1208 Odin was seen leading the charge of the Scandinavians against the Danish army. The Scandinavains won the battle thanks to Odin that day.
    I know that a legend of that incident exists. However no one has ever been able to produce documented eyewitness testimony.

    Quote:

    Back on topic though Christians are free to shop where ever they wish this Holiday season.
    Thanks. But we know.

    Quote:

    I am free to shop where I wish.
    That is correct.

    Quote:

    Since this is a private non government matter you can have all the Merry Christmas you can get as far as I'm concerned.
    I intend to.

    Quote:

    Personally I think it is selfish to not want to include everyone this holiday season but I guess wanting to include people of all faiths and backgrounds is part of my morals and not christian morals.
    Thank God we live in a free country. No one is stopping you from celebrating your Holy day. We simply ask that you don't stop us from celebrating ours. And we reserve the right to shop at stores which recognize our Holy day.

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Dec 6, 2007, 06:33 PM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    We simply ask that you don't stop us from celebrating ours.

    Does being wished "Happy Holidays" by a cashier stop you from celebrating your holy day?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    And we reserve the right to shop at stores which recognize our Holy day.

    The greeting "Happy Holidays" does recognize your Holy day, as well as all the other Holy days that happen to be celebrated this time of year. What seems to irritate you is that your Holy day is not being recognized exclusively. Why does it bother you so much to include others' holy days in a generic greeting? It seems really petty and small to be offended by the fact that the season's other holidays are being acknowledged along with your own.
  • Dec 6, 2007, 07:24 PM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
    Does being wished "Happy Holidays" by a cashier stop you from celebrating your holy day?

    No.

    Quote:

    The greeting "Happy Holidays" does recognize your Holy day, as well as all the other Holy days that happen to be celebrated this time of year. What seems to irritate you is that your Holy day is not being recognized exclusively.
    To irritate me? Where did you get that impression?

    Quote:

    Why does it bother you so much to include others' holy days in a generic greeting? It seems really petty and small to be offended by the fact that the season's other holidays are being acknowledged along with your own.
    Well, at least your tone is less aggressive and demeaning than the other nonChristians which I've spoken to on this forum. But you are either misunderstanding my posts or still putting words in my mouth. Where did you get the impression that I was offended if someone gave a generic greeting or if other holidays were acknowledged. Please quote me.

    Because if you read my messages, you will see that I advocate "voting with your dollars". I couldn't care less if you or any other person wishes to say "Happy Holidays."

    But many Christians do want Christmas to be acknowledged in their stores. And they have the right to vote with their dollars. And in fact, my wife and I do also. Not because we are offended but because its what our Christian friends want. When our Christian friends have a cause which is not unreasonable, we rally behind them.

    Why does that bother you?

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Dec 6, 2007, 09:10 PM
    michealb
    Doesn't bother me if you just don't shop there. What bothers me is when christians harass low paid holiday workers when they say "Happy Holidays".
  • Dec 6, 2007, 10:04 PM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by michealb
    Doesn't bother me if you just don't shop there.

    Then what's the problem? Is it that you don't want me to tell them why I won't shop there? It would be pretty stupid for us to boycott a store without telling them why we're boycotting. They wouldn't know how to correct their behavior.

    Quote:

    What bothers me is when christians harass low paid holiday workers when they say "Happy Holidays".
    I don't know what you mean by harassment. Is it only when Christians demonstrate their concerns with a store's policies that you consider it harassment? Or do you also consider it harassment when nonChristians express their dissatisfaction to low paid holiday workers for saying, "Merry Christmas"?

    As for me, I recommend you vote with your dollars. If you don't like the way a store is treating you, let them know why you won't be back. As the saying goes, "the customer is always right."

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Dec 6, 2007, 10:05 PM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    Where did you get the impression that I was offended if someone gave a generic greeting or if other holidays were acknowledged. Please quote me.

    OK, for example:
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    Its an annoyance. Its like someone coming to your birthday party and ignoring you. Or like someone, not the bride, coming to the wedding dressed all in white. Hey, its our Holy Day In fact, its our "Holy Season". If certain stores don't want to recognize it, we'll spend our dollars with those that will.

    Your insistence that not only Christmas day, but the entire "Holy Season" is yours, and that stores "don't want to recognize it" is what led me to believe that you were offended by a more inclusive greeting.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    I could care less if you or any other person wishes to say "Happy Holidays."

    But many Christians do want Christmas to be acknowledged in their stores.

    And "Happy Holidays" does acknowledge it, just not exclusively. So it doesn't seem to be a lack of acknowledgement of your own tradition that's the problem, it's the inclusion of other traditions along with yours.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    And they have the right to vote with their dollars. And in fact, my wife and I do also. Not because we are offended but because its what our Christian friends want.

    So even though you and your wife aren't personally offended by a greeting that includes other holidays as well as your own, many of your Christian friends are, so you boycott stores that say Happy Holidays to show your support of your friends' offense, even though you don't share it?
  • Dec 7, 2007, 08:36 AM
    Soldout
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    Here, let me help you a bit, here is the definition of hypocrite:
    1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
    2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

    I am doing neither since I'm not putting on any false appearances of religion nor am I acting in contradiction of my stated beliefs.

    I can put an angel at the top of my tree or hit my thumb and yell out "Jesus Christ!" and neither is related to religion. Weird huh? You seem to believe that your belief is the basis for every Christmas ritual. Celebrating the winter solstice has been going on since before there even was such a thing as christianity: Solstice a Cause for Celebration Since Ancient Times

    " Many more people observe the solstice while participating in modern holidays—even if they do not always realize the connection.... "As the Christmas celebration moved west," Yeide said "the date that had traditionally been used to celebrate the winter solstice became sort of available for conversion to the observance of Christmas. In the Western church, the December date became the date for Christmas."
    Traditional solstice celebrations existed in many cultures. The Roman feast of Saturnalia, honoring the God Saturn, was a weeklong December feast that included the observance of the winter solstice. Romans also celebrated the lengthening of days following the solstice by paying homage to Mithra—an ancient Persian god of light. "

    I know the History of how Christmas came about so you don't need to educated me on that. Regardless of its roots, Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ. And all the pagon perks were adapted by Christians as a way to celebrate Christmas. So if you buy Christmas trees and put a star or angel on it, sing carols, take you kids to go see santa St Nic, you are celebrating a Christian tradition that has been established for centuries. So if you claim to be an atheist and participate in the latter traditions, you are nothing but a hypocryt by your own definition. Oh.. wait a minute, my bad, apparently you are not an atheist.. mmm... because you worship of the god saturn and the Sun god. So Christmas time, you celebrate your pagon gods, oh okey then that makes sense them, so I suppose you may not be a hypocrite. You have your own cause for celebration; your pagon sun gods. So Merry Sungod-mas to you!
  • Dec 7, 2007, 08:42 AM
    NeedKarma
    Gee Soldout, you seem to have a bitterness about you. Why? Why can't you relax and let other people celebrate the way they want to?
  • Dec 7, 2007, 09:49 AM
    Soldout
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by NeedKarma
    Gee Soldout, you seem to have a bitterness about you. Why? Why can't you relax and let other people celebrate the way they want to?


    Oh by all means I am not bitter... lol I am just amused. You people just crack me up because you all pretend like you are these "inteligent" athiests who could care less about religion & look down upon us "ignorant" religious people and yet the funny thing is that you (especiallY Needkarma) spend 16 hours of your day on a religious forum and the other 8 hours dreaming about what you are going to say next. For some who is supposed to be an atheist, you spend a lot of time and energy on religion. Why is that? You also participate in traditions that have been establish by "religious" people and You make excuses and lie to yourself till you believe it, as to why you are not being you are not sending mixed messages. But what ever makes you feel good. You can celebrate Zeus or the moon god on christmas day & couldn't care less.
  • Dec 7, 2007, 09:51 AM
    NeedKarma
    I forgive you.
  • Dec 7, 2007, 09:56 AM
    De Maria
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
    OK, for example:

    Your insistence that not only Christmas day, but the entire "Holy Season" is yours, and that stores "don't want to recognize it" is what led me to believe that you were offended by a more inclusive greeting.

    Oh, I guess you don't know?

    The term "Happy Holidays" was not offensive before the 1960's. Why, because before 60's, "Happy Holidays" was synonymous with "Happy Christmas Holy Days".

    In the Early Middle Ages, Christmas Day was overshadowed by Epiphany, which in the west focused on the visit of the magi. But the Medieval calendar was dominated by Christmas-related holidays. The forty days before Christmas became the "forty days of St. Martin" (which began on November 11, the feast of St. Martin of Tours), now known as Advent.... Around the 12th century, these traditions transferred again to the Twelve Days of Christmas (December 26 - January 6);
    Christmas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As you can see, celebrating the CHRISTMAS holidays is an ancient tradition indeed.

    It is still recognized as such by those who are knowledgeable of the matter. See the second definition in the Wikipedia:

    In the United States, it can have several variations and meanings:
    * As "Happy Holiday", a substitution for "Merry Christmas"
    Holiday greetings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    NonChristians assume that Christmas is the celebration of Christmas day alone. But it isn't. For Christians, the celebration of Christmas begins Dec 1, the Advent of Christmas (fyi, the wreath which we hang on our doors is the advent wreath, frequently you will see four candles in the center representing the three weeks before Christmas and the week of Christmas). We begin our celebration by preparing ourselves for the coming of our Lord.

    Then, on Dec 24th begins Christmas proper. The celebration of the Christmas season begins on Christmas eve and ends on January 6, the day of the Three Kings.

    See the Liturgical Calendar:
    Liturgical year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Before the 1960's, when a Christian said, Happy Holidays, he meant, Happy Christmas holidays.

    Suddenly, in the 1960's there was a left wing movement using fear and intimidation to censor Christians by removing the mention of Christ in the Public and Private forum. In public schools, prayer was forbidden. In the private sector, the ACLU and other left wing groups began suing people who said "Merry Christmas."

    ACLU Sues Government over Christmas Holiday | Save Religion!
    WorldNetDaily: Court: 'Merry Christmas' ACLU
    Baptist Press - FIRST-PERSON: Merry Christmas -- it's okay to say it - News with a Christian Perspective
    Denial of Free Speech by the Courts
    Lobo's Links: 11/2005 - 12/2005

    So, although some well meaning nonChristians believe that using the term "Happy Holidays" is an inclusive term, in reality, the ACLU has made it an exclusion of Christmas.

    Suddenly Happy Holidays no longer mean Merry Christmas but something totally foreign to Christmas.

    It has gotten to the point where a minority of people are trying to control the thoughts and expressions of the majority of people. That is not supposed to happen in a free republic. You might see that in a communist state or in a dictatorship, but not in a democratic government which is ruled by majority vote.

    And so, the pendulum is swinging the other way. Christians are beginning to reassert their right to celebrate their Holy Days by saying Merry Christmas.

    Quote:

    And "Happy Holidays" does acknowledge it,
    Not anymore. Happy Holidays used to include Christmas. But if you are no longer permitted to mention Christmas then the new redefinition of Happy Holidays excludes Christmas.

    Quote:

    just not exclusively. So it doesn't seem to be a lack of acknowledgement of your own tradition that's the problem, it's the inclusion of other traditions along with yours.
    No, it's the censorship of the simple expression "Merry Christmas" and the redefinition of a long tradition wherein Happy Holy Days meant exactly what it has always meant, "Happy Christmas Holidays".

    Quote:

    So even though you and your wife aren't personally offended by a greeting that includes other holidays as well as your own, many of your Christian friends are,
    That is true. And I can see their point. Why should we, Christians, the majority in this country, be made afraid to say "Merry Christmas" under threat of litigation and harrassment:

    ... After she paid I said Merry Christmas to her as she left. Well, apparently she didn't like the fact that I said this... Back to the story. This lady started in on me about how insinsitive it was to say Merry Christmas to people I did not know were Christians. She apparently was not. This lady was almost near hysterics over this. Standing at the front counter yelling at me over the this phrase... At this point I was growing tired of being yelled at so I told her to just get out and take that chip on her shoulder with her.
    History Channel: Merry Christmas ...

    Quote:

    so you boycott stores that say Happy Holidays to show your support of your friends' offense, even though you don't share it?
    I am not offended by those who say, "Happy Holidays" in good faith. Nor am I offended by any who want to say "Happy Hannakah" or "Happy Kwanzaa" or "Happy to be an atheist". I am offended by those who want to censor my right to say, "Merry Christmas"..

    Sincerely,

    De Maria
  • Dec 7, 2007, 10:33 AM
    Soldout
    Quote:

    First, about Christians saying that this forum is for christians only. I didn't see a sign on the door if the admins would like to add one. I'll gladly stay out. Otherwise I view this as a board of opinions and I am just as free to give mine as any fundy.
    What religion do you adhere to if I may ask?

    Quote:

    Second
    De Maria I think you need to study history a bit more before you go around saying that Christmas traditions are christian in origin. The early germans before they were christionized had a festival at Yule. This festival was to celebrate the great hunt of Odin(the god of the germans at the time also a large man with a white beard). The children would put their boots by the fireplace and fill them with carrots, straw and sugar for Odin's flying horse. In return Odin would leave the children presents for the kindness that they had done. Sounds familiar doesn't it. Didn't you ever wonder what St. Nick and the tree have to do with the birth of Christ?
    You all just have to admitt it... lol You all love Christmas and its perks but because you all have low tolerance to what it stands for, you want come up with a way to justfuly your participation in the Season. Because the bottom line is that it is irrelevant where the roots of the Christmas festival came from but what matters is that those tradtions were adopted by Christians for purpose of celebrating the Birth of Christ and this has been established for hundreds of years. So unless you worship the Sun god or Odin, (or what ever pagon religion from which the tradition is adapted) you are actually celebrating Jesus if you participate in going to see Santa, Christmas tree light.. etc Because all those traditions were adopted centuaries ago by Christians. Had Christians not adpted the traditions, they would not be present in modern times. And FYI St Nick is a Christian SAINT and the stars and angles you put on your christmas tree are religious symbols.
  • Dec 7, 2007, 10:37 AM
    NeedKarma
    Cool, I'm now a full-fledged christian.
  • Dec 7, 2007, 01:19 PM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    Oh, I guess you don't know?

    The term "Happy Holidays" was not offensive before the 1960's.

    And it still isn't, except to a few hypersensitive people with a big chip on their shoulder.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    Before the 1960's, when a Christian said, Happy Holidays, he meant, Happy Christmas holidays.

    Suddenly, in the 1960's there was a left wing movement using fear and intimidation to censor Christians by removing the mention of Christ in the Public and Private forum. In public schools, prayer was forbidden. In the private sector, the ACLU and other left wing groups began suing people who said "Merry Christmas."

    You are confusing the issue of government-sponsored actions that promote and establish Christianity with the issue of freedom of speech for private individuals and organizations.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    So, although some well meaning nonChristians believe that using the term "Happy Holidays" is an inclusive term, in reality, the ACLU has made it an exclusion of Christmas.

    Suddenly Happy Holidays no longer mean Merry Christmas but something totally foreign to Christmas.

    If you want to attach an anti-Christian meaning to the term, I suppose you can do that, but don't blame the ACLU for it. They don't have that much influence.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    It has gotten to the point where a minority of people are trying to control the thoughts and expressions of the majority of people. That is not supposed to happen in a free republic. You might see that in a communist state or in a dictatorship, but not in a democratic government which is ruled by majority vote.

    Some people opt for a greeting that includes everyone, while others insist that their Holy day should be the only one to be acknowledged, even by (and to) people who don't celebrate it. So who's trying to control whom?
    Quote:

    Christians are beginning to reassert their right to celebrate their Holy Days by saying Merry Christmas.
    This right is not under attack, and never has been.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    Happy Holidays used to include Christmas.

    And it still does, by widely-shared usage and any reasonable definition. Your insistence that it doesn't is preposterous.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    But if you are no longer permitted to mention Christmas then the new redefinition of Happy Holidays excludes Christmas.

    No one is being prevented from mentioning Christmas, and no such redefinition of Happy Holidays has occurred.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by De Maria
    No, it's the censorship of the simple expression "Merry Christmas" and the redefinition of a long tradition wherein Happy Holy Days meant exactly what it has always meant, "Happy Christmas Holidays".

    No one is being censored, and no such redefinition has occurred.

    Quote:

    I am not offended by those who say, "Happy Holidays" in good faith.
    Then I trust that you will temper the tone of your future communications to avoid the misunderstandings that have occurred here.
    Quote:

    I am offended by those who want to censor my right to say, "Merry Christmas"..
    No one is trying to censor your right, and you are not being persecuted. You have the freedom to greet others and observe the holiday in any way that suits you.
  • Dec 7, 2007, 01:38 PM
    ordinaryguy
    Quote:

    Soldout disagrees: Christmas has always been traditionally exclusively celebrated In the US.
    Even if this statement were factually correct, which it isn't, what would be your point? That people of other faiths are unwelcome here? That if they do come here they shouldn't expect their beliefs and traditions to be respected and recognized? What?
  • Dec 7, 2007, 02:08 PM
    Soldout
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
    Even if this statement were factually correct, which it isn't, what would be your point? That people of other faiths are unwelcome here? That if they do come here they shouldn't expect their beliefs and traditions to be respected and recognized? What?

    It is an obvious fact that Christmas has been the most prominently celebrated traditionally in the US. & if you don't know that you are just in denial. It is only in recent years that people like you are whining about Christmas being more recognised than other minority religious festivals and demanding that people say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Other religions have their own celebrations during the year and no one harasses them about anything. But because the spirit of the world despises Christ and Christians, anytime we want to celebrate our religious holiday people want to force us to call it something else. How come when Jewish people have Yom Kipper and Muslims have Ramadan, no one utters a word of complain? I don't see anyone causing such a controversy about it. Like I said before, democracy means majority rules. Christians are a majority in Christian Holidays are going to be more prominent. If you take offense to that then you can move to a country where the majority are atheist, muslim or what ever religious beliefs you subscribe to.

  • All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:33 PM.