Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starman

Please keep in mind that everything you believe about evolution comes from from pro evolutionary sources. .

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Sorry that's not true. As I said, I believe in evolution because it's the only theory that fits scientific facts like fossil evidence, carbon dating etc.

Frankly, I don't give a darn how many eminent scientists or crackpots support either theory. I think for myself. I take the facts and weigh those facts to determine what I think

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starman

Not all evolutionists are atheists.

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Who said they were? I believe in evolution and I'm not an atheist. As I said, I don't believe that the Theory of Evolution is in direct conflict with the Bible. I believe that Genesis was written to explain something the people of that time didn't understand, i.e. how they came into being.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Comments on this post
rickj disagrees: They're both theories, period.

Then all ypu have to do is prove your claim.

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I don't have a claim. I simply chose to accept one of the two Theories.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rickj

I don't have a claim. I simply chose to accept one of the two Theories.

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Ok, I accept that. I'm not hard to get along with. Then all you have to do is show me some proof to back up your "acceptance". What's that? No proof?
Then I guess you're out of gas.

If there was proof for either side, then it would not be a Theory. Even the scientists and theorists agree - which, again, is why Evolution is a Theory.

Personally, I accept that living things evolve. The evidence for this is overwhelming. But there is nothing near proof that we all evolved from a common ancestor.

Our Primate Origins: An Introduction Like all other organisms, humans have evolved over time from earlier species, and share a genetic relationship to all other forms of life on Earth. The study of human evolution involves understanding the similarities and differences between humans and other species in their genes, body form, physiology, and behavior.

To understand human evolution one must understand where humans fit in relation to other forms of life. Modern humans belong to the group of mammals known as Primates. This is the scientific category describing such diverse creatures as lemurs, lorises, tarsiers, the monkeys of the New World and Old World, and also the apes. As primates we all share many characteristics, such as overlapping fields of vision caused by forward looking eyes (this allows for greater 3D vision), fine ability to grasp and handle objects in our hands, and enlarged brains relative to body size. The evolution of the Primates started in the early part of the Eocene epoch (about 55 million years ago).


Olive Baboon: Papio anubis
Old World Monkey "Common" Chimpanzee: Pan troglodytes
African Ape
Photographs courtesy of Don Wilson, Smithsonian Institution, Department of Vertebrate Zoology

By comparing humans and other living species, scientists have learned that humans are most similar to the large apes of Africa and Asia. Among all animals, humans and apes are the most alike in brain and body form, by having a complex social life, and in many other major and minor features, including the lack of a tail. The fossil record of several ancient ape species collectively called Proconsul shows that the split between the common ancestors of the Old world monkeys (above left) and the apes (above right) happened in the earliest Miocene, at least 20 million years ago.

Comparisons of DNA show that our closest living relatives are the ape species of Africa, and most studies by geneticists show that chimpanzees and humans are more closely related to each other than either is to gorillas. However, it must be stressed that humans did not evolve from living chimpanzees. Rather, our species and chimpanzees are both the descendants of a common ancestor that was distinct from other African apes. This common ancestor is thought to have existed in the Pliocene between 5 and 8 million years ago, based on the estimated rates of genetic change. Both of our species have since undergone 5 to 8 million years of evolution after this split of the two lineages. Using the fossil record, scientists attempt to reconstruct the evolution from this common ancestor through the series of early human species to today's modern human species.

So when did humans originate? The answer to that question really depends on what traits are meant by the term "human."

Our understanding of the fossil record shows that distinctively human traits appeared neither recently nor all at once. Rather, they evolved piecemeal over a period of roughly 5 million years. By 4 million years ago, humans were habitually bipedal (walking on two legs) yet had brains roughly a third of the size of a modern human's (about the size of a modern ape's brain). By 2.5 million years ago the manufacture of stone tools was common. Large increases in brain size occurred even later. Complex behaviors such as adaptation to a wide range of environments and cultural diversification emerged only within the last 100,000 years.

Rick,

DNA, the fossil record and a progression of human skulls all are concrete evidence the we evolved.
Now! I have just put forth some of the evidence that substantiates my claim.
Short of attacking evolution or what I've posted have you any evidence that will further your creation theory and do you deny that Creation, Intelligent Design, Scientific Creation, ( take your pick) is nothing more then a religious belief that the religious right is attempting to insert into the public school system by way of science classes? When you can come up with some POSITIVE PROOF that your theory's valid I'll agree they should be taught side by side. Until then you have nothing to offer then faith and belief. BTW. Please explain exactly who the "intelligent designer" is?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

Sorry that's not true. As I said, I believe in evolution because its the only theory that fits scientific facts like fossil evidence, carbon dating etc.

Frankly, I don't give a darn how many eminent scientists or crackpots support either theory. I think for myself. I take the facts and weigh those facts to determine what I think



Who said they were? I believe in evolution and I'm not an atheist. As I said, I don't believe that the Theory of Evolution is in direct conflict with the Bible. I believe that Genesis was written to explain something the people of that time didn't understand, i.e. how they came into being.

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The Genesis account is repeatedly quoted as historical fact by the prophets, the apostles and even by Jesus himself. So saying that it wasn't is calling all these either imbeciles or liars. You can't have it both ways. Calling it myth makes a mockery of what Jesus died for, our sins which are traced back to Eden and what occurred there, and stamps him as a deluded lunatic who died for nothing but his own delusions. From my standpoint I don't see any reason why I should doubt Jesus, the Son of God, and prefer to believe a mere sinful evolutionist.

Scientific facts? They are facts only from an evolutionary viewpoint. You depend on evolutionists to interpret the data they discover for you and their interpretation is always pro evolution. The same evidence can be interpreted from the intelligent design viewpoint. But then you would say that there is bias.


BTW
The use of such words as crackpots, wackoes, loonies, and so on when referring to scientists who choose to support creation is considered fallacious reasoning since it falls under the category of ad hominem. Of course you you included any scientist but within the context of your argument those reading your words will assume you mean creationist scientists.

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Originally Posted by Starman

The Genesis account is repeatedly quoted as historical fact by the prophets, the apostles and even by Jesus himself.

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Can you cite some examples? While Christ and his Apostles did cite Scripture (what we now call the Old Testament), they were not commenting on what is literal and what is not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starman

BTW
The use of such words as crackpots, wackoes, loonies, and so on when referring to scientists who choose to support creation is considered fallacious reasoning since it falls under the category of ad hominem. Of course you you included any scientist but within the context of your argument those reading your words will assume you mean creationist scientists.

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Yeah, it's one thing to call someone who believes the north pole is a hole that leads to a world of people inside the earth a crackpot, as there is solid proof that it does not exist... but calling people who believe in creation, including educated and reputable Scientists, crackpots is silly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starman

The Genesis account is repeatedly quoted as historical fact by the prophets, the apostles and even by Jesus himself. So saying that it wasn't is calling all these either imbeciles or liars. You can't have it both ways. Calling it myth makes a mockery of what Jesus died for, our sins which are traced back to Eden and what occurred there, and stamps him as a deluded lunatic who died for nothing but his own delusions. From my standpoint I don't see any reason why I should doubt Jesus, the Son of God, and prefer to believe a mere sinful evolutionist.

Scientific facts? They are facts only from an evolutionary viewpoint. You depend on evolutionists to interpret the data they discover for you and their interpretation is always pro evolution. The same evidence can be interpreted from the intelligent design viewpoint. But then you would say that there is bias.


BTW
The use of such words as crackpots, wackoes, loonies, and so on when referring to scientists who choose to support creation is considered fallacious reasoning since it falls under the category of ad hominem. Of course you you included any scientist but within the context of your argument those reading your words will assume you mean creationist scientists.

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First, I wasn't referring to scientists in my crackpots remark. I specifically said "eminent scientists OR crackpots". My intent was not to lump the two together. I also specifically stated support for "either theory". Again not specifying either side.

I dealt with this first, because it shows that despite what I actually said, you applied a different interpretation to my words. An interpretation clearly not supported by what I actually said. This leaves one to ponder on what else you might have interpretted incorrectly to support your position.

If calling Genesis a myth implies what you said it implies, then so be it. If you can produce one iota of concrete proof that the Old Testament represents an accurate historical account of the origin of this planet and the life on it, then I will change my position.

As for the scientific facts only being facts from an evolutionary viewpoint, you are incorrect there. Again, I'm not going to go into all the evidence that exists supporting the Theory of Evolution. But a good deal of that evidence is simple bare facts. Facts that Evolution accounts for where Creationism doesn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rickj

Yeah, it's one thing to call someone who believes the north pole is a hole that leads to a world of people inside the earth a crackpot, as there is solid proof that it does not exist...but calling people who believe in creation, including educated and reputable Scientists, crackpots is silly.

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See my Answer to Starman. Try reading what I ACTUALLY said, instead of what you think I said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rickj

Can you cite some examples? While Christ and his Apostles did cite Scripture (what we now call the Old Testament), they were not commenting on what is literal and what is not.

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I see absolutely no evidence in the Bible indicating that the Genesis account is myth. I can quote dozens of scriptures where prophets apostles and even Jesus spoke of it clearly as history. But that would not change your viewpoint since you have chosen to consider it myth and would then proceed to give your reasons you prefer to see it as myth. Round and round it would go ad infinitum. So I prefer not to do an exercise in futility and acknowledge your right to your opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by starman

I see absolutely no evidence in the Bible indicating that the Genesis account is myth

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LACK of evidence doesn't prove FACT or MYTH for that matter.

The Bible is a collection of stories that have neither been proven as FACT or MYTH. So your belief is based purely on FAITH.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

First, I wasn't referring to scientists in my crackpots remark. I specifically said "eminent scientists OR crackpots". My intent was not to lump the two together. I also specifically stated support for "either theory". Again not specifying either side.

I dealt with this first, because it shows that despite what I actually said, you applied a different interpretation to my words. An interpretation clearly not supported by what I actually said. This leaves one to ponder on what else you might have interpretted incorrectly to support your position.

If calling Genesis a myth implies what you said it implies, then so be it. If you can produce one iota of concrete proof that the Old Testament represents an accurate historical account of the origin of this planet and the life on it, then I will change my position.

As for the scientifc facts only being facts from an evolutionary viewpoint, you are incorrect there. Again, I'm not going to go into all the evidence that exists supporting the Theory of Evolution. But a good deal of that evidence is simple bare facts. Facts that Evolution accounts for where Creationism doesn't.

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Simple bare facts as interpreted by evolutionist scientists to dovetail with their assumpions. In any case, I am sure that if you found a simple arrowhead in the desert and I told you it was a product of chance you would immediately protest by saying that it shows clear evidence of planning and forethought which indicates intelligent design. But faced with the infinitely more complex human brain you immediately switch criteria ans say you see nothing indicvating forethought and planning? Sorry but that type of biased reasoning or selective blindness weakens your case, for evolutionary or mindless chance emergence of things since it shows a serious flaw in reasining and inconsistency of criterion.

BTW
The scientific method is not the only way to prove things. There is also logic.

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

LACK of evidence doesn't prove FACT or MYTH for that matter.

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You are right, lack of evidence doesn't prove anything about the Bible but it does deprive the accusers of a very useful tool--evidence.

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The Bible is a collection of stories that have neither been proven as FACT or MYTH. So your belief is based purely on FAITH.

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The burden of proof lies primarily with the accuser not with the accused.
All I see here are statements without any scientific or logical support which are expected to be taken as fact simply because they are stated.

Fallacious reasoning:

Popularity of a belief isn't proof of accuracy. That premise is faulty and the use of it to buttress a fallacious argument called "Appeal to bandwagon" This is not to say that it is being used directly as proof of evolution or mindless emergence of the universe and all life within it, but in a roundabout way it is. Not necessarily by anyone here, but by the general public who believes what evolutionist scientist say.

BTW
Having computer problems and can't cite scripture or provide links inn support of my statements. Will have to log out and come back later after I tweak thi infernal machine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

LACK of evidence doesn't prove FACT or MYTH for that matter.

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Correct.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

The Bible is a collection of stories that have neither been proven as FACT or MYTH. So your belief is based purely on FAITH.

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Incorrect. I can't cite a percentage, but many of the events described in the Bible are confirmed by extra-biblical historical, textual, archaeological, etc sources.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starman

Popularity of a belief isn't proof of accuracy. That premise is faulty and the use of it to buttress an argument is called "Appeal to bandwagon" It is simply fallacious reasoning.

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Exactly, popularity of belief is NOT proof of accuracy. And popularity of belief accounts far more for support of creationism then it does for evolution.

You keep trying to support your position by referring to evolutionist viewpoint in interpreting facts. However, much of the Bible is subject to interpetation.

I will say again, that the Theory of Evolution is popular because it's the only explanation that fits scientific fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

Exactly, popularity of belief is NOT proof of accuracy. And popularity of belief accounts far more for support of creationism then it does for evolution.

You keep trying to support your position by referring to evolutionist viewpoint in interpreting facts. However, much of the Bible is subject to interpetation.

I will say again, that the Theory of Evolution is popular because its the only explanation that fits scientific fact.

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.Very good that you acknowledge that popularity is meaningless in terms of truth or objective reality. However, I disagree that most evolutionists know what they are placing their trust in. Most are brainwashed in school at an early age and their impressionable minds are awed by authority figures until anything these authority figures say is considered sacrosanct. Ask any high school student to give you an intelligent explanation of the fine point of the evolution theory and you will get a blank stare or some superficial response. So their belief is for all practical purposes blind faith based on the conclusions reached by others which they have chosen to consider indisputable because that's the way they were taught to think--if indeed it can be considered thinking art all.

You say that most of the Bible is subject to interpretation. It seems that way doesn't it. But what you are seeing is misinterpretation. So I would rephrase that statement as the Bible is subject to an infinite amount of misinterpretation. As a matter of fact, the Bible itself tells us that it would be misinterpreted and that the misinterpretations were fostered by God's arch enemy Satan. It also tells us that God doesn't grant just anyone to understand it correctly but that some are kept from that understanding by the condition of their hearts.

One example: people who read it in order to find faults, in order to attack it further. These might come away more mislead then they originally were since their minds are closed to anything but what they had already concluded.

BTW
How do you explain your inconsistency in criteria in reference to the arrowhead example?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starman

However, I disagree that most evolutionists know what they are placing their trust in. Most are brainwashed in school at an early age and their impressionable minds are awed by authority figures until anything these authority figures say is considered sacrosanct.

BTW
How do you explain your inconsistency in criteria in reference to the arrowhead example?

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The same can be said, with more basis, about religion. Religion is based on faith. Faith is drummed into people during their more impressionable years.

What I see the fact here is that you see the Theory of Evolution as attacking your beliefs in the Bible and religion. Therefore, to reinforce your belief, you have to attack Evolution. I prefer to look at the body of scientific evidence. When I do I see how that evidence fits the points of Evolution and I choose to accept Darwin's ideas as the most likely.

I don't now and never have put my faith in religion. I've indicated why in other posts I've placed on this site. If you want to put your faith in it, your are welcome to. But when you try to deny the scientific evidence. When you try to denigrate in the name of supporting your faith, I will dispute you.

BTW
What inconsistency?

I have seen no scientific facts that refute anything the bible says so I tend to believe that God had many ways to bring life to this planet and our intellect still is trying to grasp the concept, so ancient man probably had no clue and had to fill in the blanks the best they could. Whether we believe whatever theory or not the bottom line is that no matter how it sounds or seems to fit none of us can explain the mystery of how GOD does things or makes them happen. Even our supercomputers can only theorise the creation and it maybe a long time before man can even wrap his head around the fact that God created everything his own way

This goes along with some other things I have said.

Scotty,

Starman has dug up of that oldy but goody augment for intelligence design but gave it a new twist. He substituted arrowhead for the original watch. But it's still the same old argument that was shot doiwn decades ago. "In any case, I am sure that if you found a simple arrowhead in the desert and I told you it was a product of chance you would imediately protest by saying that it shows clear evidence of planning and forethought which indicates intelligent design. But faced with the infinitely more complex human brain you imediately switch criteria ans say you see nothing indicvating forethought and planning? Sorry but that type of biased reasoning or selective blindness weakens your case, for evolutionary or mindless chance emergence of things since it shows a serious flaw in reasining and inconsistency of criterion."
Scotty, there is no winning a religious debate with a believer. Although they can offer no concrete proof they still attempt to push their cause.
I've had 13 years of arguing reason and logic against faith and design. Ya can't win, sport! If you make a valid point or convincing argument that they can not respond they simply ignore it and pretend it was never said or change the subject. Once more! Ya can't win! It's next to impossible to open a closed mind. "God said it! I believe it! and that settles it!" Those that believe Genesis is literally the "word of God" and not composed by the framers of the Bible as a moral guide will never be convinced that man lived for 800 years, that the entire earth was under water from a "great flood" , that the universal physical laws of nature are reversed where a man could transport himself over water without getting wet and come back from the dead will never be convinced that this never happened. That the Bible was written by men whose one purpose in life was to glorify their religion. That most of the Jewish Religion was lifted from earlier pagan religions and the Christian Religion was lifted from that. There's no denying that. The flood, virgin birth, resurrection, angels, devils etc. All lifted from the Zoroastran Religion that flourished in Persia in the 6th. Century BC.
Interestering enough, Zororaster was born of a virgin, preached, was crucified and rose from the dead. Or so they claim. This is historical fact and can not be disputed. This also gave raise to the movement that denied that jesus even existed.

So you believe the Bible literally? Man lived 800 years, the entire world was covered by a great flood etc? And can yet find nothing to disprove it? How about The Universal Law of Physics. Or just common sense.

Speedball1-First off if you'd read my post or read my previous posting you'd know that I don't believe anyone's bible is of a divine nature but mans attempts at rallying the masses under one banner or another .Also to add a fact whether you believe A or B or C there are no hard facts one way or another that someone's theory is right or wrong. For whatever your belief system is, there will always be those who say I'm RIGHT so that makes you wrong, a concept I thoroughly reject as being non-productive and unprovable. Since I doubt if you or anyone else will be there when I meet my maker I really don't care about theories and opinions when it comes to how I go down the path of my own life. I do believe people should at least be able to debate with out getting so carried away with there own bull crap that nothing that they disagree with starts a debate not about give and take but comes down to calling names and casting aspersions on people who have the same rights to whatever as everyone. I really don't give a rats behind if the world was flood since I wasn't there and neither were you or anyone else who forms an opinion. The problem I have with some of the people who engage in these post is they take themselves so seriously that good debate is impossible. We aren't here to convert anyone just talk and exchange ideas and I 'm sure that those who claim to know about the universal laws and such are only seeing the tip of the iceberg as anything is possible and because you think you know you don't and guess what neither do I. So chill with that absolute proof thing cause it just ain't absolute!

Tally,
I didn't think so until I picked up on. " I have seen no scientific facts that refute anything the bible says." If I have misunderstood you then I apologize. I have no wish to burst the bubble of anyone that believes the Universal Law of Physics are suspended when religious "miracles" are involved. I'm not attempting to convert any one. Years of debating Fundamentalists have convinced me that it's impossible. I'm just pointing out the most of the Bible isn't based on historical fact. I take a very dim view of word for word conversations that were written down hundreds of years later.
Of coures you're entitled to your beliefs. Just as I'm entitled to debate them.

"I do believe people should at least be able to debate with out getting so carried away with there own bull crap that nothing that they disagree with starts a debate not about give and take but comes down to calling names and casting aspersions on people who have the same rights to whatever as everyone."

I certainly appreciate your classy put down. Bull crap? Show me! Calling names? Show me! Casting aspirations? By challenging a statement? Nah Tally! Don't takie this so seriously. Have a drink or take a took and just go with the flow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Scotty,

Starman has dug up of that oldy but goody augment for intelligence design but gave it a new twist. He substituted arrowhead for the original watch. but it's still the same old argument that was shot doiwn decades ago.


"In any case, I am sure that if you found a simple arrowhead in the desert and I told you it was a product of chance you would imediately protest by saying that it shows clear evidence of planning and forethought which indicates intelligent design. But faced with the infinitely more complex human brain you imediately switch criteria and say you see nothing indicvating forethought and planning? Sorry but that type of biased reasoning or selective blindness .

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If indeed the arrowhead argument is refuted as easily as you claim why not simply post the refutation?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

The same can be said, with more basis, about religion. Religion is based on faith. Faith is drummed into people during their more impressionable years.

What I see the fact here is that you see the Theory of Evolution as attacking your beliefs in the Bible and religion. Therefore, to reinforce your belief, you have to attack Evolution. I prefer to look at the body of scientific evidence. When I do I see how that evidence fits the points of Evolution and I choose to accept Darwin's ideas as the most likely.

I don't now and never have put my faith in religion. I've indicated why in other posts I've placed on this site. If you want to put your faith in it, your are welcome to. But when you try to deny the scientific evidence. When you try to denigrate in the name of supporting your faith, I will dispute you.

BTW
What inconsistency?

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I thought only the deity could read minds! I am not trying to denigrate or attack your beliefs. It's very unfortunate that you feel forced to classify a discussion that way. Neither am I disputing or trying to deprive you of your right to reject religion, or your right to believe whatever it is you chooose to believe or your right to dispute another person's beliefs..

BTW
Please try not to consider the following links as an effort to denigrade your views or to deprive you of your right to believe in evolution. I only post them for those who might be interested in the subject from the creationist standpoint.

Excerpt:
Darwinian atheist Michael Ruse has even acknowledged that evolution is their religion!
Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion — a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality.. . Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.25
http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=...ainstevolution

Scientific Evidences for Creationp

http://www.clemson.edu/spurgeon/book.../Chapter7.html

I have to agree that some of the posts seem belittling. I'm speaking as rickj here, not as a moderator. I have edited nothing in this thread.

Remember folks, words are words; we cannot see facial experession or other body language, and we can't read minds.

... so maybe some it is meant to be in jest - or harmless sarcasm - but with text this is often hard to read.

In my opinion the most effective debaters of subjects like this are the ones who say what and why they believe without mention of others or their beliefs.

... that's just my 1.01 cents worth...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Tally,


"I do believe people should at least be able to debate with out getting so carried away with there own bull crap that nothing that they disagree with starts a debate not about give and take but comes down to calling names and casting aspersions on people who have the same rights to whatever as everyone.".

---

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point. It is truly unfortunate that
A discussion which might simply lead to an interesting exchange of ideas degenerates into what you describe,

Which shows that you have an open mind.

Creationist Whoppers
Various Authors




This is a small sampler of creationist whoppers, gleaned from talk.origins in recent months. When I wrote that I had sent an unnamed creationist a small sampler of ICR whoppers, many people wrote and asked for a copy. I have much more distributed throughout my file system, and in books and on paper at home, but have not yet had a chance to gather them together. [plus my @#$! Mailer seems to be broken. Sorry to those who wrote me and got no


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's an example of creationist misquoting, from Henry Morris' book, Science, Scripture, and the Young Earth, p. 12:

The catfish range in length from 11 to 24 cm. with a mean of 18 cm. Preservation is excellent. In some specimens, even the skin and other soft parts, including the adipose fin, are well preserved...

... strongly suggests that the catfish could have been transported to their site of fossilization.(19)

Note 19 refers to an article in the journal Geology by Buccheim and Surdam, which says:

The abundant and widespread occurrence of skeletons of bottom feeders, some with soft fleshy skin intact, strongly suggests that the catfish were a resident population. It is highly improbable that the catfish could have been transported to their site of fossilization. Experiments and observations made on various species of fish have shown that fish decompose and disarticulate after only very short distances of transport (Shafer, 1972).
Karl Fezer discovered this, and wrote a critique, which he sent to Morris for comment. This resulted in the following "correction" in Acts & Facts (vol. 12, no. 11, p. 6):

CORRECTION: Readers who may have purchased the booklet, Science, Scripture, and the Young Earth, announced in the August issue of Acts & Facts, should make the following correction: on page 12, delete lines 18 and 19. A section which was inadvertently omitted in this quotation (from an article in Geology by Buccheim and Surdam) inverts the authors' intended meaning. However, the argument being advanced in this section by the booklet's author, Dr. Henry Morris, is not affected by this correction. ICR writers always try diligently to quote accurately and in context, knowing that evolutionists are carefully watching their writings to ferret out any examples of misquoting which may occur, but this one got by. If the authors of the quoted paper were embarrassed in any way by our lapse in this case, we apologize.

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Gish has been caught on numerous occasions spouting lies, yet he never offers retractions and his own religion tells him that he should be honest.

One example is Gish's "bullfrog proteins." In 1983, in a PBS show on creationism, Gish claimed that while humans and chimpanzees have many proteins which are identical or differ by only a few amino acids, there are also human proteins which are more similar to a bullfrog or a chicken than to chimpanzees. Gish was repeatedly pressed to produce his evidence. Two years later, Philip Kitcher challenged Gish to produce his evidence or retract his claim in a debate at the University of Minnesota. Gish refused to respond. Kevin Wirth of Students for Origins Research (a pro-creationist organization) begged Gish to respond in the pages of Origins Research regarding the claim. He refused. (See Robert Schadewald, "Scientific Creationism and Error," Creation/Evolution XVII (vol. 6, no. 1, 1986).)

Another example involving numerous creationists is the claim that Donald Johanson discovered "Lucy's" knee joint 2 km away from the rest of the skeleton. This claim was first made in the Bible-Science Newsletter by Tom Willis in 1987, and has since been repeated by Walter Brown, John Morris, Paul Taylor, Russell Arndts, and Michael Girouard. But it's false, apparently based on a misunderstanding at a Q&A session at the University of Missouri attended by Willis. Johanson did find a knee joint 2 km away from "Lucy," but he never claimed that this knee joint was "Lucy"'s. I gave a copy of a letter from Johanson describing the facts of the matter to Girouard in person at an ICR seminar, and he claimed he would read it carefully and respond to any letters I wrote him. I wrote him in December of 1989 and never received a reply. Brown was also informed of the facts of the matter, in both the pages of Creation/Evolution and of Origins Research. In both cases he responded with new claims about "Lucy" which had nothing to do with the knee joint--he just ignored the issue at hand. (Origins Research didn't print my follow-up.) My letter to Tom Willis received no reply. My letter to the Bible-Science Newsletter (in response to Arndts' more recent repetition of the false claim) went unpublished and I received no reply...

I agree.

Starman,
"If indeed the arrowhead argument is refuted as easily as you claim why not simply post the refutation?" All you hadda do is ask!

The Watch/Arrowhead in the Desert

OK, so if you found a watch lying in the desert, would you assume that it "spontaneously assembled" itself from the desert sand and rocks? Of course not! You would assume that it was made, or created, by a skilled watchmaker, and dropped there by him or someone else. The watch was clearly designed for a very specific purpose, by someone with great expertise, who knew exactly what he wanted ahead of time. Therefore, when we find something as perfectly designed as a living animal, it is utterly foolish to assume that it "spontaneously assembled itself" either. It had to be designed, in all its perfection, by some Great Designer. The mere existence of well-designed watches and animals is all the proof we should need that both were created by someone with infinitely more wisdom than the creations. Both, by their existence alone, imply the existence of a great designer or creator. Watches don't "just evolve," and neither do animals (or people); ergo, evolution is logically absurd (and, by extension, anyone who believes in it is an illogical idiot).

Anyway, that's sort of how the analogy usually goes. And it looks pretty good at first glance. I imagine a few evolution-minded folks have been taken aback by this one, the first time they heard it, not knowing quite how to answer it at the time. I'll also bet that some creationists see this as an irrefutable gem of logic that utterly destroys evolution and all its works.

Hold on a minute, though. Since this argument is presented in the form of an analogy, let's hold the creationist to his own logic, and see if the analogy holds up. For an analogy to make any logical sense at all, the two things being compared have to have a LOT in common, not just one salient feature. For instance, when we're considering the functioning of a living thing (like a person), an analogy is often drawn with a complex machine of some sort (like a watch, but a car works even better). Both need fuel, both produce heat and waste products, both wear out eventually, both turn chemical energy into mechanical energy, both have many small but critical parts, etc. But the watch-in-the-desert analogy is not about how the things work. It's about where they came from--or really, how they came to be. And when you think about that, you come to some interesting conclusions. Remember, it's supposed to work this way: because a watch doesn't spontaneously assemble and has to have a maker who made it just the way it is, therefore an animal can't spontaneously assemble either, and it, too, must have a maker who made it just the way it presently is.

Let's start with this: watches DIDN'T just appear in the world as they presently are! As a matter of very obvious fact, they evolved . The first timepieces were very primitive, clumsy, and inaccurate. They improved over the years. If we can refer to really old time-keeping devices as "fossils," then we can show a fossil sequence of the evolution of watches from some dim time in the past up to our present electronic wonders. Nowadays they evolve visibly from one year to the next. The watchmakers went through a whole, evolving series of clocks and watches before someone carelessly dropped one in that desert. So is this supposed to prove that the animal we find in the desert was made in its present form, with no significant changes over many generations? Am I missing something here?

Remember, the debate is really about whether evolution occurs , not about whether there's a creator behind it. A watchmaker (mankind) slowly developed (evolved) the sequence of timepieces. Maybe a Watchmaker slowly developed (evolved) the sequence of living things--you'll get no argument about that here. But the evolution happened in both cases. The message of that lost watch is NOT "I sprang up in my present perfection, with no primitive ancestors before me." It's more like "I'm at the end of a long chain of slowly evolving ancestors, and my descendants will continue to change."

Is finding a man-made watch in the desert supposed to somehow show that animals were created in their present forms by magic (or miracle) some few thousand years ago? What on Earth would lead us to that conclusion? The watch wasn't created by magic. In fact it was created by purely natural processes (as opposed to supernatural). If the creation of the watch really is analogous to the creation of living things, then what the analogy shows us is that the origin of both can be explained by natural processes.

Supernatural intervention could have been responsible for either or both, but that explanation certainly isn't necessary for the watch. If we hold the creationist to the logic of his own analogy, then what the analogy "proves," if it proves anything, is that well-designed "creations" can be produced naturally, in small, incremental steps: no magic required, thank you very much.

"But, but, but..." the creationist insists, "the point of the analogy is that things like watches and animals don't spontaneously assemble!" Well, that's half right, and here's where the analogy breaks down. Any analogy can only be stretched so far. The car stops being analogous to the human body when you start talking about thought or emotions. And watches stop being analogous to animals when you start talking about how the individual item is assembled. Watches, after all, never have little baby watches! An individual watch is, of course, always assembled by something outside itself (a human watchmaker, although nowadays it's more likely to be industrial robots). All the animals I've ever seen have assembled themselves , quite literally! They take in (usually) nonliving material from their environments, chemically process it, and turn it into parts of the living animal. In the case of mammals like us, the only parts of us that are directly made by someone else are the sperm and egg cells that unite and subdivide into our first few cells. After that, for the rest of our lives, we take in material from the outside, and assemble it ourselves into parts of us. Early on, that material is supplied by our mother, but she doesn't make us: she just supplies the raw material. We absorb it, manipulate it, build ourselves , and get rid of what we don't need.

OK, I know, the point is the first animal. How could it get started? All presently living animals are started with bits of already-living matter created by their parents. Nonliving chemicals don't spontaneously assemble, don't create orderly, complex molecules out of simple elements... Don't they? If the creationist gets to this point, he has revealed his basic ignorance of the simplest chemistry. Elements and simple molecules combine spontaneously all the time to form more complex molecules. When was the last time you found any loose hydrogen on the Earth, or fluorine? All of it has spontaneously combined with other elements to form more complex molecules. If you turn some loose, it won't stay uncombined for long. Carbon atoms, especially, have a tendency to form spontaneously into all kinds of complex molecules, which in turn often combine to form very complicated polymers and mega-molecules. Some of those combinations are even self-replicating , if the raw materials are available. We don't commonly see molecules assembling themselves into living systems, but then it only had to happen once--from then on the natural tendency of life has been to keep itself going, spread out, and evolve. When you get down to the level of molecules, or small collections of them, the dividing line between living and nonliving gets pretty fuzzy. As a matter of fact, one of the basic criteria used in modern biology to distinguish living from nonliving complex systems, is that truly living systems are capable of evolving as they reproduce.

And, if we are committed to the idea of a Creator, He certainly could have been the one to arrange that first unlikely combination. He could have even directed all the evolution since then. Again, the point of the tired, old watch-in-the-desert analogy was supposed to be that evolution does not and could not occur. But watches have evolved; they aren't created miraculously, ex nihilo ; and their inability to self-assemble has nothing to do with the obvious ability of chemical compounds and living things to assemble themselves out of available materials. So how is it again that finding a man-made watch is supposed to prove that animals were created in their present forms?

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Creationist Whoppers
Various Authors ...

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... and this contributes to the discussion how? There is no dispute that there are some bad arguments out there.

Here are examples of what evoltionists are capable of:

DARWINISM-WATCH.com - Responding Evolutionist Propaganda in the Media
A New Page in the History of Evolutionist Fraud. It has emerged that an evolutionist professor of anthropology has been providing false information regarding the age of some key fossils for the last 30 years.. . theory of evolution, but of evolutionist fraud. The dating and interpretation based...
www.darwinism-watch.com/new_page.php


The Ape-Men III
The interesting story of Piltdown man (Eoanthropus dawsoni), one of the shameful patchworks of evolutionists.. . Piltdown Man (Eoanthropus dawsoni): an Evolutionist Fraud. Piltdown man (Eoanthropus dawsoni) is one of the... was only an artfully conceived fraud. The skull fragments belonged to a...
www.cryingvoice.com/Evolution/ApeMen3.html
More pages from cryingvoice.com


DARWINISM-WATCH.com - Responding Evolutionist Propaganda in the Media
... THE EVOLUTIONIST CLAIM OF A TRANSITION FROM WATER TO LAND IS A LIE... A NEW PAGE IN THE HISTORY OF EVOLUTIONIST FRAUD...
www.darwinism-watch.com/articles.php



The Ape-Men II
... A good example of evolutionist fraud and deceit of the whole world is Eugene Dubois and his ape... displays 22 stages of our ancestry. The German evolutionist G. H. R...
www.cryingvoice.com/Evolution/ApeMen2.html



Letters to the Editor North County Times - North San Diego and Southwest Riverside County News - NCTimes.com -...
A daily newspaper with News, Business and Sports for San Diego and Riverside Counties.. . North County Times. Evolutionist fraud never corrected... It was fraud that got that idea going, but I've never known an evolutionist who seemed interested in correcting it...
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2003...export8993.txt



Evolution - October 1998 by thread
... RE: Haeckel and N-rays: Fraud or self-deception ?Pim van Meurs... RE: The Evolutionist: Liar, Believer In Miracles, King of Criminals.Pim van Meurs...
www.asa3.org:16080/archive/evolution/199810


Evolution Fraud in School Scienfic Textbooks
Textbook Fraud. Evolutionists deliberately tolerate knowingly fraudulent pro-evolution evidence in School Textbooks. Students are deceived by fraudulent science textbooks.. . New Textbooks purchased by schools in the last year are full of fraud and lies to promote evolution... at the idea that man evolved from monkeys! Evolutionist-Converter Video Lectures...
www.bible.ca/tracks/textbook-fraud.htm


... Lucy: Clearcut Case of Evolutionist Fraud. Posted by tomzz...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/browse


What does this prove about the issues we are supposed to be discussing?
It focuses on people who made mistakes. But that doesn't affect the objective truth in one way or the other which remains unchanged regardless of such mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Starman

I am not trying to denigrate or attack your beliefs.

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Cmon Starman! Then what is this all about? Hasn't just about every post from in this thread been an attempt show that the Theory of Evolution is false?

Lets look at this quote; "Most are brainwashed in school at an early age and their impressionable minds are awed by authority figures until anything these authority figures say is considered sacrosanct." That seems to denigrate the intelligence of the majority of students. Yes they may have deen indoctrinaterd early on, but as they mature and go through higher education, they do learn to think for themselves.

The irony here is that I believe in Intelligent Design, though probably not in the way you do. I believe that some intelligent force created the building blocks of our universe, setting up natural and physical "laws". I believe this force then sat back to see what would evolve from the foundation that was created.

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The Watch/Arrowhead in the Desert

OK, so if you found a watch lying in the desert, would you assume that it "spontaneously assembled" itself from the desert sand and rocks? Of course not! You would assume that it was made, or created, by a skilled watchmaker, and dropped there by him or someone else. The watch was clearly designed for a very specific purpose, by someone with great expertise, who knew exactly what he wanted ahead of time. Therefore, when we find something as perfectly designed as a living animal, it is utterly foolish to assume that it "spontaneously assembled itself" either. It had to be designed, in all its perfection, by some Great Designer...

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Yes, you are missing the very important fact that via a serious discrepancy you are promulgating what is called a false analogy
By omitting the human intelligence that caused the watch to change with time. By redesigning it. It fact, you are providing the very evidence which you claim to reject.

False Analogy
http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyKR...seanalogy.html

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Remember, the debate is really about whether evolution occurs, not about whether there's a creator behind it. A watchmaker (mankind) slowly developed (evolved) the sequence of timepieces. Maybe a Watchmaker slowly developed (evolved) the sequence of living things--you'll get no argument about that here. But the evolution happened in both cases. The message of that lost watch is NOT "I sprang up in my present perfection, with no primitive ancestors before me." It's more like "I'm at the end of a long chain of slowly evolving ancestors, and my descendants will continue to change."

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Unfortunately, you are describing two completely different things--change guided by human intelligence and change taking place by blind chance. They are not comparable by any stretch of the imagination.

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Is finding a man-made watch in the desert supposed to somehow show that animals were created in their present forms by magic (or miracle) some few thousand years ago? What on Earth would lead us to that conclusion? The watch wasn't created by magic. In fact it was created by purely natural processes (as opposed to supernatural).

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The natural process of being designed by human intelligence as opposed to blind chance!

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If the creation of the watch really is analogous to the creation of living things, then what the analogy shows us is that the origin of both can be explained by natural processes.

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All natural processes are not the same. On the one hand you have what you claim to be the natural process of evolution. On the other hand you have what you call the natural process of design and change under human intelligence. They are as different as night and day since one involves a reasoning conscious purposeful guiding force while the other doesn't.

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Supernatural intervention could have been responsible for either or both, but that explanation certainly isn't necessary for the watch. If we hold the creationist to the logic of his own analogy, then what the analogy "proves," if it proves anything, is that well-designed "creations" can be produced naturally, in small, incremental steps: no magic required, thank you very much. "But, but, but..." the creationist insists, "the point of the analogy is that things like watches and animals don't spontaneously assemble!"

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Of course they assemble via the reproductive abilities given them by their creator. The issue is original life appearing on earth with the ability to replicate itself. Self replication is something that the creator of the watch if wise enough could have given it.

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... We don't commonly see molecules assembling themselves into living systems, but then it only had to happen once--from then on the natural tendency of life has been to keep itself going, spread out, and evolve.

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That goes completely contrary to the law of entropy which is based on the observation that nattier tends toward disorganization.


Excerpt:
Entropy: Enemy of Evolution?
By Babu G. Ranganathan
27 May 2005
The natural tendency of matter and of all of energy is toward greater disorder -- not toward greater order or complexity as evolution would teach.

Very few scientists have considered or pondered the implications of the law of entropy upon the theory of evolution.

The theory of evolution teaches that matter tends to evolve towards greater and greater complexity and order. We are so accustomed to seeing evolution of technology all about us (new cars, boats, ships, inventions, etc.) that we assume that nature must work the same way also. Of course, we forget that all those new gadgets and technology had a human designer behind them. Nature, however, doesn't work the same way.

The simple fact is that the law of entropy precludes macro-evolution from ever occurring. Entropy is the measure of increasing disorder in a system. The natural (or spontaneous) tendency of matter and of all of energy is toward greater disorder -- not toward greater order or complexity as evolution would teach. This tendency towards disorder that exists in all matter can only be temporarily overcome if there exists an energy converting and directing mechanism to develop and maintain order.

http://www.intellectualconservative....ticle4365.html

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When you get down to the level of molecules, or small collections of them, the dividing line between living and nonliving gets pretty fuzzy. As a matter of fact, one of the basic criteria used in modern biology to distinguish living from nonliving complex systems, is that truly living systems are capable of evolving as they reproduce.

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There is a vast chasm between simple spontaneous chemical reactions and combinations on an atomic and molecular level with that required to produce the complex organisms we see all around us. That, my friend requires more that an inductive leap. It requires an insurmountable leap of faith based on what evolutionists think happened.http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyKT...ziliducks.html

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we are committed to the idea of a Creator, He certainly could have been the one to arrange that first unlikely combination. He could have even directed all the evolution since then. Again, the point of the tired, old watch-in-the-desert analogy was supposed to be that evolution does not and could not occur.

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I understand that some would imagine God creating in the way you describe and if it were so then I would accept it. However, I find the evolution argument unconvincing. No, the watch in the desert example was and example you gave to prove that evolution occurs. The arrowhead example was an example showing how scientists apply the rules of intelligent design to the arrowhead but refuse to do the same when faced with far greater evidence in the form of organisms.

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Watches have evolved; they aren't created miraculously, ex nihilo ; and their inability to self-assemble has nothing to do with the obvious ability of chemical compounds and living things to assemble themselves out of available materials. So how is it again that finding a man-made watch is supposed to prove that animals were created in their present forms?

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Once more, watches change under intelligent guidance, human forethought, a mind at work. That is not analogous to a supposed mindless organization of matter. They are actually at opposite extremes. The conclusion about the watch being a product of intelligent design is not unproven by the watch's changing in design over time. It merely reinforces it by showing the ones who designed it continued to work on it.

Also, why refer to God's works as magic? God has full command of natures forces and what might seem magical to us might be based on his deeper understanding of how nature works. What seemed like magic to mankind just a few decades ago is now taken for granted.

In any case, it was a nice discussion and thanks for your patient and decent participation. I think I will go to a less controversial subject at another forum.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

Cmon Starman! Then what is this all about? Hasn't just about every post from in this thread been an attempt show that the Theory of Evolution is false?

Lets look at this quote; "Most are brainwashed in school at an early age and their impressionable minds are awed by authority figures until anything these authority figures say is considered sacrosanct." That seems to denigrate the intelligence of the majority of students. Yes, they may have been indoctrinated early on, but as they mature and go through higher education, they do learn to think for themselves.

The irony here is that I believe in Intelligent Design, though probably not in the way you do. I believe that some intelligent force created the building blocks of our universe, setting up natural and physical "laws." I believe this force then sat back to see what would evolve from the foundation that was created.

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I apologize for hurting your feelings. That was not my intention.

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Originally Posted by Starman

Kids aren't taught to think for themselves either in grade, or high school. When they get to college, if they get to college, they are not required by most course curriculums to learn to think for themselves.

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Your timing on this is not good. My daughter is working on her Masters in Education. She is currently taking a course in Philosophy of Education. So this issue was part of the discussions in her class. I won't dispute that the American Education system has many problems. But its not as bad as you paint it. The conclusions she reached from this course was to teach students to think for themselves. So there is hope.

I went through my secondary and college education more than 30 years ago. I don't recall being especially brainwashed and indoctrinated. I very strongly believe that I am a free thinker. That I arrive at conclusions based on factual evidence and logical considerations.

One of the problems I perceive in your arguments is that you seem to consider only extremes. Things are either one way or another. That just isn't always the case.

Starman,
"Remember, the debate is really about whether evolution occurs, not about whether there's a creator behind it"
Whoa! Back the truck up. Your entire package is about a Creator/ Intellect Designer who just said "poof" and there we were. And now you say it's not germane to this debate? Let's stop copying and pasting up articals both pro and con. I can find as many as you can but it's nonproductive since we don't believe each other anyway.
Let's focus instead on the issues.
This is not about whether evolution happened. Of course it happened. We're here aren't we. This is about HOW evoluation happened. Your claim is that it happened by Intelligent Design. Mine is that it happened by natural selection.
You claim intelligent Design. That requires a designer. Trot him out! Who is he? Does he have a name and what is it? If you can't produce or even name a Designer then how can you argue that it even took place. If you have no evidence and the only thing you can do is attempt to discredit Evolution or trot out old tired Creation arguments then you're out of gas. But I'm a fair guy. I'll back off and let you prove your case. If you have no evidence or proof to back up your claim then this debate is over and I'll get back to the plumbing page where I belong. It's been fun. For me it's been a case of "daja Vue" (sp.)
I debated for years, both in religious chat rooms and in the street at the clinic, and this gave me a little stroll through the "faded yellow pages of yesterday". Starman, Take it from me. In those years I heard just about all the arguments that there were to hear. You haven't surprised me with anything different. Just as I could never win out there so can I never win in here. As can you. Unless you have some dramatic proof to put forth let's just agree to disagree. You're a fine debater and a challenge, plus a lot of fun to debate but I don't think Ben should have ever started this thread. It's just too emotional a subject. And your thoughts? Regards, om

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

Ok I know that this is a contentious issue, but I believe that it needs to be talked about.

This has been mentioned in other threads, but I thought that it was time for a thread of its own.

The main problem that I have is how can Intelligent Design (ID) be taught as a SCIENCE when it is based TOTALLY on faith?
At least Evolution is a Theory and until it is disproved or updated it’s the best we have.
ID has it place in Religious Studies NOT in science.

OK now time for some back up to my position:
Overview 1
Overview 2
Dover Legal Case 1
Dover Lagal Case 2
The Vaticans Response
Sweet Irony
Comment

Now I am looking for some reasoned arguments here NOT just opinionated mudslinging

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As I see it with the limited knowledge that man has there is on thing that's obvious. NO BODY KNOWS the true facts of how we came to be. I think it would be a hoot if we found out that we where all wrong and way off base. AS it stands in the big picture one does not contradict the other nor does it go very far at all in contradicting the bible or any other of the great books. I think the main problem is that we humans are so full of ourselves that we cannot imagine not knowing something! Why can't we just tell our kids the truth, that we just don't know!! :rolleyes:

Very well put. Evolution is not a theory about the beginning, but instead of how we got from there to here.