I think that there is enough evidence in history where the herd mentality of man has been led astray by misplaced faith in a leader instead of a concept of faith. Indeed has not the spread of any church been marked by conflict of power and wealth? Control is a tool for both.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I think that there is enough evidence in history where the herd mentality of man has been led astray by misplaced faith in a leader instead of a concept of faith.

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And what happens when its not misplaced, what you call it then anarchy?

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Indeed has not the spread of any church been marked by conflict of power and wealth? Control is a tool for both.

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Church isn't about 'control' - this is a general accusation that really needs some support, don't you think?

JoeT

Power and wealth in material sense to create revenue streams to buy lawyers, and payoff victims of church officials, is not control? Are you trying to convince me the church is the end all be all? No, it is but the vehicle of expression, in my mind, of a greater good. But like the humans it's supposed to serve it has flaws. Despite your claim of one church, there are many churches.

Indeed have we not seen the many deaths from wars, and political conflicts between people of many regions over what church controls the money, power, and resources, and trade routes? Is it not factual that churches tortured and suppressed people to promote their truth? That's not control? That's not power, or wealth?

The whole statement of "the church" can mean any church can it not? Or are you specifying YOUR church? They are all the same to me. Not degrading the reality of what religion strives for, just being practical about it's applications.

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Is it not factual that churches tortured and suppressed people to promote their truth?

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Tal I have to take issue with that statement, that is exactly what the Inquisition did. Churches have the unfortunate position of being full of self righteous people who cannot conceive that truth is not the sole prerogative of their branch of the church, and these peopel will drive you out if you hold a different view

It doesn't have to be the sole prerogative Clete, just a means to and end that keeps people in line.

Why do we have to be kept in line Tal? I have had many experiences in Christianity, some of which will challenge traditional views. Why should my experiences and expression not be considered valid? perticularly when I can back them with Scripture

That's a great question Clete, why do they have to keep you in line? What are you going to do? Start your own church? That's exactly what's done when the orthodoxy disagrees.

Grumpy Joe,

The church is simply all people who have accepted Christ as their savior. They don't have to be likeminded believers. The only thing they need to have in common is salvation, the church are all the people who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. I actually believe there will be different families in heaven. The OT saints who believed God and had faith before Christ died for their sins will be one group and then the ones who accepted Christ ( the church) after his death. The church is the bride of Christ. I don't believe the OT saints will be part of the bride. Anyone have thoughts?

It stands to reason that if you believe in God then you are inclined to believe that there is a reason he placed us here on earth and that reason has method to its reason. If there is a reason, then the reason is important and if it is important then a remnant of the truth or reason is good, but not the whole reason. If you believe, do you believe that this life is just a game for the Gods or a planned event with real reasons and real outcomes. If there are real outcomes, then complete truth is probably not open to the opinions or they wouldn't be reasons, but a compilation of how men feel about God, not about what God's reason for us being here is. Food for thought.

Stud muffin,

Say what? I don't get it but don't hold that against me... not the brightest bulb.

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Stud muffin,

Say what? I don't get it but don't hold that against me... not the brightest bulb.

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My bulb is bright (today at least), and I don't get it either.

Church is a open and often vague term. For the meaning that it is the entire body of believers who have accepted Christ ( I think I saw that used a page or two ago) Then perhaps 1/2 or even more of the people who went to a Church service this morning are not really members and perhaps a much higher number that say they are, are not.

This morning, we held a service, we keep a look out down the street, to see if the police are coming. Since holding the service and attending is illegal. I think, that divides up a real believer from those that think it sounds good, to say so.

I know some answering here are not believers, but for those that say they are. Who would have been with me in Church, if they could go to prison for it?

Very good point Fr_Chuck

To those who didn't understand my lingo, I don't think God did everything that He did as just some act of boredom or to prove His capabilities. If you consider what it took to put this whole thing together, it says to me that He was serious about HIs intentions and that man made intentions, though well meaning may not match His. I think He has "A" plan and men have what they think is His plan. "Straight is the gate and narrow is the way" points to a specific plan. L I don't like to get into who is right and who is wrong, I just think there is His way.

well studs you are certainly right that we know little about the details of God's plan, but we have one certainty, his love for us, his children

Church is wherever good humans congregate to do good things.

Fr_Chuck,

You are right! We are blessed here in the USA because we CAN worship freely and speak freely the name of Jesus. I have never been in your position and frankly, I have no desire to be. But I am a believer through and through and while I hope to never have to be tested that severely for my faith I can say in absolute honesty that I am NOT ashamed of the gospel of Christ and I would not stop praying, praising and worshiping even if it was illegal. May we who believe all be a shadrack, meshack and a bed to go! Lol my son use to call them that. Couldn't resist. :)

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How many different 'One Body of Christ(s)' are there? Are they individual and different 'Truths' as well? If not why are they not one and the same Church?

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However you might like it Joe one size doesn't fit all. The body of Christ is agreed on the essential truths but Jesus did not prescribe any form to the Christian religion beyond remembering him and evangelising, he didn't suggest building temples, as said earlier when two or three are gathered in my name, that was his prescription. All the rest are the ideas of man mainly based on Old Testament forms of religion ie; priesthood, temples, sacrifice but Jesus said he is making all things new. There is one Church under the headship of Christ but many assemblies, the more you hear the message from various groups the more you realise the basic message is the same