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Originally Posted by Chey5782

DrJ, I think you are falling into some of the same old arguments. In order to actually discuss this you would have to do something like what the council of Nicea did. They met to officially decide what went into the Bible as we know these books today. The books excluded can almost all be found in a different book called the Gnostic Gospels.

Oh, by the way, early Christianity was viewed as a cult. ;)

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Gnosticism is entirely different. I think you mean the Apocrypha.

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Never mind, it's the same thing.

It still is a cult. Cults have a negative connoation, but all a cult is, is a sub-culture, which is a meme. AMHD is a cult, it's an intangible, internet-based one, but it's still a cult. It's just semantics.

As far as the numerous denominations, it was meant to be this way, that's the whole point of Free Will. Life would be meaningless if all things were known and predictable.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

I don't think that there is some one essential trait that is going to determine Christian from non-Christian

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I would have to say it's pretty simple, believing in Christ would make you a Christian. Whether someone agrees with you is irrelevant, we all live our lives for ourselves. You know if you are a Christian or not, so long as you truly feel it is all that matters. Really, this applies to all things in life.

The more you think about this stuff, the less sense it's going to make. Don't listen to what others say, find it out for yourself.

Everyone is making some really good points... can't say it makes any of it more clear though :D

It just seems that with all the hand-copying of, translating of, filtering, adding to, taking away from, committees formed to make interpretive decisions hundreds of years after that fact, sects branching-off/rewriting/taking with what they see fit from the Bible, how can so many still be focused on it word for word.

And if believing requires such a deep, complex, rich understanding of such things, how can anyone ever stand a chance?

We can listen to the teachings of others but we are subjected to their own (or their teachers) personal beliefs/interpretations, however ignorant they may or may not be.

It seem then that everyone has to eventually settle on what they, themselves, believe to be truth... regardless of what it is.

I pretty much agree with you on that point DrJ. Faith is subjective, but it's also relative.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Since the Christian Bible was produced by the Church as a means (among others) of providing for ecclesial and doctrinal stability, it strikes me as a profound misunderstanding of both the historical conditions of the (Christian) Bible's production as well as of its theological purview to make of it a criterion for what counts as Christian.

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That's an excellent point, if you are working from a purely Catholic point of view. Thus my asking them to define Christian under their terms. I.E. Their sect of Christianity.

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Originally Posted by slapshot_oi

I would have to say it's pretty simple, believing in Christ would make you a Christian. Whether or not someone agrees with you is irrelevant, we all live our lives for ourselves. You know if you are a Christian or not, so long as you truly feel it is all that matters. Really, this applies to all things in life.

The more you think about this stuff, the less sense it's going to make. Don't listen to what others say, find it out for yourself.

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This attitude is EXACTLY the problem. And it breeds rank shallowness: So long as it feels right it must be right. This is used to justify all sorts of atrocities.

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Originally Posted by DrJizzle

And if believing requires such a deep, complex, rich understanding of such things, how can anyone ever stand a chance?

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Were you under the misapprehension that it was supposed to be easy? It's a life-long project; of course it's difficult and demanding. Why on earth would anyone suppose otherwise?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Were you under the misapprehension that it was supposed to be easy? It's a life-long project; of course it's difficult and demanding. Why on earth would anyone suppose otherwise?

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Well, maybe not easy but at least accomplishable!

The difficult part should be living out your beliefs, not finding them.

What most people fail to realize is that be fore Jesus there was no new testament only the old testament. I feel the what God said to Cain before he killed his brother we must all live by and think about everyday. God came to to Cain and asked him why he was angry. He told him that if you do well you are accepted, and that if he did not do well then sin was at his door and Cain needed to master it before it caused him to do wrong.
I was teaching my Sunday school class about Cain and Able when that part "hit me between the eyes". I pointed out to the kids that any time they start to do something they should stop and think is this right or wrong and listen very carefully to the inner voice God has given us all. All my life I have always known the story of Cain and Able but never paid attention to the fact that God was asking Cain to chose the right path, and not kill his brother.
Why bother with who is right or with whether or not the "church" you go to is better than the other. If you hold with creation then we are all related anyway and should treat each other accordingly.