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Originally Posted by JoeT777

We know what you THINK Scriptures say. But quote some passage that says, “complete, and all that you need”.

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Already did.

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Yes, he certainly didn't have New Testament Scriptures to read. What do you think he was doing all those years after being struck by the 'light'? Writing his epistles so that he can then turnaround and read them, and thereby becoming enlightened? Boy, even that one doesn't take much wattage.

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I see your rambling about something but what is your point?

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So they searched the New Testaments? Or the Septuagint, maybe even the book of Maccabees?

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The book of Maccabees was not accept by any denomination as scripture until your denomination did at the council of Trent, and that was despite Maccabees internally denying inspiration, so that was not referred to as scripture.

Now it appears that you are saying that large parts of the NT (or all of the NT) is not scripture - was that your point?

You keep bringing up the Septuagint for some reason - do you have a point to make about it as a translation?

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Where is it implied or stated that they taught anything else but orthodox Catholic faith?

JoeT

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Well, for one thing, your denomination did not exist, and secondly many of your denominational teachings came much later.

But what are you trying to do - turn this into a Bible versus your denominational teachings thread?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

We still don't know who wrote all of them - so what? Where is the supposed contradiction?

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So you don't believe (or know) that it was Matthew, Mark, Luke and John who wrote the Gospels?

Catholic Tradition has always held that the authors were the individuals whose name they bear. No ghost writers

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

So you don't beleive (or know) that it was Matthew, Mark, Luke and John who wrote the Gospels?

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Who said that? Why must you put up strawman arguments instead of dealing with what was said? Is it too hard to actually deal with the real points which have been made?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Well, for one thing, your denomination did not exist

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Then there is a stupendous problem needing resolution. Where does the Scriptures come from? How did it come to you from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? I'm interested in hearing the story?

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Then there is a stupendous problem needing resolution. Where does the Scriptures come from? How did it come to you from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? I'm interested in hearing the story?

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Joe, when I took theology courses (probably before you were born) at a Christian college, this was common knowledge in Christendom:

Mark was the first Gospel, with Matthew and Luke borrowing passages both from that Gospel and from at least one other common source, lost to history, termed by scholars 'Q' (from German: Quelle, meaning "source"). John was written last and shares little with the synoptic gospels.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Then there is a stupendous problem needing resolution. Where does the Scriptures come from? How did it come to you from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? I'm interested in hearing the story?

JoeT

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You see a problem with prophetic revelation?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Joe, when I took theology courses (probably before you were born) at a Christian college, this was common knowledge in Christendom:

Mark was the first Gospel, with Matthew and Luke borrowing passages both from that Gospel and from at least one other common source, lost to history, termed by scholars 'Q' (from German: Quelle, meaning "source"). John was written last and shares little with the synoptic gospels.

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Before I was born?

Most orthodox Catholic theologians hold that the authors are those whose name are born by the Gospel. This has been a long standing tradition of the Church; well, at least since they were written. I looked at the 'Q' years ago, but it might surprise you to know that many don't believe there is a missing Gospel. It's funny that many of the proponents of the Q come from Scripture Only communities - seems like a contradition to me. Its based on parallel and synoptic gospels verses found in Matthew, Mark and Luke, and on Mark being the first published Gospel, which can't be proven. Out of thin air a new list of quotes supposedly made by Christ. Without any historical document as evidence the Q should be held with great suspect. It's my understanding - could be wrong - the Q has fallen out of favor even with its own proponents.

Even if the Q did exist, it doesn't provide a historical line from the Scriptures we have today to the Apostles that wrote them. This is the chain that Tj must break; the reason should be obvious to all.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Before I was born?

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When were you born?

Akoue would be a good reference for current thinking re Q.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

When were you born?

Akoue would be a good reference for current thinking re Q.

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When was I born? Well let’s see Moses was still in knickers (well it can seem that way sometimes) and Alger Hiss is convicted of perjury; the Knesset passes a resolution that states Jerusalem is the capital of Israel; President Harry S. Truman announces a program to develop the hydrogen bomb.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You see a problem with prophetic revelation?

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This doesn’t tell the story. I'd like to hear it.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

This doesn’t tell the story. I'd like to hear it.

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Perhaps you see a problem that I don't. I don't even see what you think might be a problem.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Jesus - he did not found a denomination

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His life and teachings were the foundation for a church that evolved into a catholic church that evolved into the Catholic Church which then split into Eastern and Western divisions.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

When was I born? Well let’s see Moses was still in knickers (well it can seem that way sometimes) and Alger Hiss is convicted of perjury; the Knesset passes a resolution that states Jerusalem is the capital of Israel; President Harry S. Truman announces a program to develop the hydrogen bomb.

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Yes, before you were born.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

His life and teachings were the foundation for a church that evolved into a catholic church that evolved into the Catholic Church which then split into Eastern and Western divisions.

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Many denominations (in fact most) can rightfully say the same thing - so what?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Many denominations (in fact most) can rightfully say the same thing - so what?

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No, they can't. The early church evolved into the Catholic Church. That was THE Christian Church throughout the western world for centuries.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Yes, before you were born.

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Well in that case it's no fair picking on the kids in the class!

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Perhaps you see a problem that I don't. I don't even see what you think might be a problem.

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How do you know that Scriptures are Holy unless there is an Authority to validate that claim? If the Catholic Church doesn’t do this then who does? I see you as having a big problem.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Well in that case it's no fair picking on the kids in the class!

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I wasn't in college yet, but... *breaks into tears*

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No, they can't. The early church evolved into the Catholic Church. That was THE Christian Church throughout the western world for centuries.

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You may believe that to be the case, but there were others. And the one true church was not a denomination in any case, so I am not sure where you are heading with this or what your point is.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

How do you know that Scriptures are Holy unless there is an Authority to validate that claim?

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Are you looking for a higher authority than God?

We must have greatly different views because I don't believe there is any higher authority.