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But what about the parts like Aries stated. Stoning your daughter to death (like they almost did to Mary in the bible). This was common practice and acceptable, was it not?Quote:
Thus though this is often a valid criticism, it is wrong to generalize and paint all who profess to be Christian with the same brush.
What about the way that slaves where treated and the rules on how to beat your slave and for what discretions you where supposed to beat them?
Certainly you can't adhere to all of that.
Let's not get back on these old stale claims of contradictions. There was just a thread on that, I have seen the list on internet, and have wasted far too much time in showing what the context of the passages are, which are more often than not, saying the opposite of the claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
These are easily addressed by simply following this approach:
1) Read the context of the chapter (vast majority refuted by reading one verse before and after the quoted verse) At least 95-99% of all these claims are refuted by doing this simple step.
2) Recognize that contradictions in fact only exist when the two verses are completely incompatible (mutually exclusive)
3) Unclear verses must be interpreted in the light of those are clear (i.e. often a verse or partial verse is taken out of context and not considered in light of explicit teachings in scripture)
4) Rare cases require additional study in the larger context of scripture, or the original culture/languages of the Bible. The Bible was not penned in English but in Koine Greek and Ancient Hebrew. As in any case where one translates a text, especially from a precise language such as Greek to a less precise language such as English, some clarity is lost and to see the original intent, we need to look at what was said in the original language.
5) Often one book gives part of the story and another gives a different part. They are complementary, not contradictory
I have to go for the night, sadly I have yet another funeral to attend tomorrow. When it rains it pours.
Take care everyone. Good night.
I didn't belittle them. If that is the way that you interpret strong disagreement, then consider your words also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
But we need to be able to discuss clearly what our views are, and in discussing those views, there will be some strong disagreements. For example, if you are saying (as one of our discussions went) that because I say that there is only one true God and that other gods are false gods, that that is somehow attacking you, then you are saying that I must not defend one of the key tenets of my faith.
We both have to accept that strong yet respectful disagreement is a key requirement for any honest and open discussion where differences exist, and if we cannot agree on that, then it becomes a case where you believe it is okay to say as you wish about my faith (calling my God hate-filled and evil), but I dare not say anything about your faith.
We need to have a "level playing field" for discussion.
Do you agree?
That is my point exactly.Quote:
I know we won't agree, pretty much on everything, but that doesn't mean that we can't discuss. Who knows, maybe we'll learn something from each other. :)
Alty,
So sorry another funeral! It is always hard around the Holidays too.
I agree with TJ3.. in that there is no way I can say that our GOD is equal to just any god. I am not trying to be disrespectful when I say that... it is just a fundemental part of my belief. My GOD is above all and everything. And not because I THINK so but because HE SAID so. That is the reason I can't say our faiths are equal. It isn't because I think I am somehow BETTER in any way. It is just that my God is GOD ALMIGHTY, the Everlasting Father, the GREAT I AM and there is none like him nor anyone even close. Does this make sense to you? I just want you to see why you struggle with some Christians.
I am ( or hope I am) very respectful of you and your belief.
Let me ask you this... do you think that I can be respectful in spite of my beliefs?
Hi Alty,
I am a muslim,I believe in One Almighty,and I believe it has been One God since the beginning and will remain One for eternity.
I was born and brought up as a muslim,but I was not as serious into researching the why's and how's of the practices of Islam.I was a follower of the five pillars of Islam,but never looked into it more than what I knew, which is not much.
I have never questioned my religion as whether being true or not,but I came to a point where I wanted to know more about my beliefs and become the best muslim I could ever be.
I have been in touch with people of different faiths all my life and understand that it is their choice to believe or not,but this does not mean that I accept their beliefs as the right path for me.
I always knew and believed that the monotheistic faiths have a lot in common,but since I joined the Desk I have discovered some of the exact points where I have so much in common with the Jewish and Christian faiths.
Now more than ever I see the common beginning which is, that the original books of the monotheistic faiths are from the same source as I have always believed.
I am still on that journey of discovering new information and learning many new things and none of it has ever decreased my faith or belief,but has added to it and made me more firm in belief than ever that I am on the right path.
I do think you are respectful. You see, unlike many other non Christians I do understand the basis for your belief because I was raised Christian, went to Catholic school, etc. So yes, I understand, even though I don't agree.
I don't think I've explained my faith very well. It's hard to describe something that can only be felt. I wish I could write in words how I feel about God, how I pray to him, why, even though I don't go to church and don't read the bible, my beliefs aren't all that different from yours. I just cut out the man made part of religion, but I kept God in my heart. Really, I can't explain it, I wish I could.
ClassyT, you have never been disrespectful of me or my beliefs. I really do understand that becaue of your faith you cannot say that my God is equal, even though I really think that we pray to the same God, just in different ways.
As for the funeral, yes, 2 in less than 2 weeks isn't easy. This time it's my friends father, he passed away from a year long battle with lung cancer. He was a wonderful man, and he will be missed, but he's at peace now, finally. Now it's his family that has to find peace. It's those of us that are left behind that feel pain.
Thank you. :)
Firmy, thank you for sharing your beliefs with us.
Sadly I don't know a lot about the Muslim religion, I really would like to learn more, if you want to share. :)
When I went to Catholic school we had an assignment one year for religion class. We were to go to 3 churches that practiced a religion other that Catholicism. It wasn't easy to find 3 churches in our town, it's largely Catholic. I did manage to find a baptist church very close to my house.
The difference between that church and the Catholic church was as different as night and day. In the Catholic church everything was marble, oak, gold, silver. All that is shiny and new. In the baptist church we sat on old fold out chairs, when the wine was passed out it wasn't in a silver cup, but plastic disposable cups. When they passed me communion I told them that I wasn't baptist, they didn't care. Their response "you are a guest in our church and will receive the same rights as us". I was awed. Never before had I been made to feel so welcome in a church, and these people didn't know me at all.
I also went to a pentecostal church and a Lutheran church during that assignment. I have to say, the most positive experience was at the baptist church, I still remember it to this day. :)
What is it that makes you feel certain that your God IS a different God from all others? How do you know that you are praying to a different God than Altenweg, for example? I have never understood this argument about there being a different god for each religion. That's a lot of Gods! Are the different gods like alternate universes? Side by side and both equally real? Or are they all together somewhere? And only one is in charge, a sort of super God?
Or are you actually saying that everyone who doesn't believe the same tenets that you believe is praying to a false idol, that they have no God at all?
In that case, where do you draw the line? How different do their beliefs have to be from yours for you to say that their god does not exist? How do you feel that you know the God in someone else's heart is or is not the one true God?
And, separately, isn't it hurtful and disparaging to tell someone that you know for a fact that their God does not exist? Is there a more respectful way to think and talk about this problem?
Alty,
If you wish to know anything about Islam/muslims ask away on the Islam board or you may like to visit and read the FAQ there for some information :).
Hi asking, I'm glad you joined us.
I'll try to answer your question, but I'm sure that someone will disagree with me.
It's ritual, different practices. Really, if they were to go to other churches, talk with people of different faiths, they would see that they aren't all that different in their beliefs. There are differences, but not huge differences.
Of course, everyone wants to be right, so the Catholics say the Jews are wrong, the Jews say the Baptists are wrong, when really, they are all praying to the same God, just in different ways.
The reason that most religions don't accept my belief and don't accept that my God is the same as theirs, is the fact that I don't include the bible or church in my beliefs. To Christians, the bible and church is the fundemental part of their religion. You can't have faith without the bible, without church. Therefore they believe that I must not be praying to the same God.
I may not believe the same things as Christians, I believe that science had a huge hand in creating this world, and maybe God helped a little bit. I don't think that God inspired the bible, and organized religion is just a man made thing, a way to make money.
I don't have rituals, nothing is set in stone. I'm always questioning, always searching for more answers, while still believing in God.
For most relgions you can't believe in God and believe in science. The two don't mix. That's another place where I'm different. I think that God and science go together very nicely.
In most religions you should never question, but just stick to what you are taught. There is no room for questioning, looking for answers, because it might lead you away from your faith.
I'm not explaining this well, and I've written another page long post. ;)
Sorry.
Thanks Firmy, I will. I'm always interested to hear about others beliefs. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by firmbeliever
I've got to run everyone. Continue the discussion, I think it's going really well. :)
My parents did not believe in God and did not talk about religion at all to me when I was growing up, except to reassure me about the scary things my friends said to me. God and Jesus were as real to me as fairies or elves or the easter bunny--I mean this quite literally. For a while I envisioned them as being real, but then stopped around age 7 or 8. It was hard to let go of this imaginary part of my inner life. But it was clear that adults did not believe that faeries were real. I was rather disappointed by this. My parents told me that Jesus was a real person but that there was no way to know if every story about him was true and that I would have to decide for myself what I believed about God and religion generally. This seemed like a big task for a kid, but I took it seriously.
We lived in a Catholic neighborhood and by the time I was 4, I was being told by other kids that I would go to hell. They described it in detail and scared me. I would be over at their houses and we would pray before meals and they would then look at me and remind me that I was not Catholic and would burn if I died. It made me want to be very careful, so I didn't die! Eventually, I just decided to try to ignore their assertions. I was quite relieved to think that God might not be real. (Unlike faeries and fairyland, which seemed like a real loss to me.) Oddly, their scare tactics never made me want to be Catholic. I felt kind of sorry for them because they had all this inner turmoil. They seemed to have to confess all the time, and as they got older, most of them got into trouble of some kind.
I went to a public school where I had one set of friends and another set of friends at home, who went to Catholic schools. My best friend wanted to be a nun when she grew up. She was very sweet. But she moved away when we were 11. Later, as an adult, I realized that her last name was Jewish. Was she treated as an outsider at the convent and was she struggling to be accepted? I don't know. But when I read Alty's story and others' here, I wonder.
My older sister must have been affected by our neighborhood friends too because she insisted on going to Catechism when she was 9 or 10. I think she only went for a few months or a year, which our parents allowed. I had no desire to do this. I thought weekends were for playing, not more school. I never saw any friends on Sundays because they were all at Church. But our family always spent Sundays together. Even after my mother died and my sister moved away, my father and I always spent Sunday together.
As I got older, I came to resent others' efforts to make me feel like an outsider who would be punished, not for anything I'd done but for not believing something inside my head. I continued to encounter Christians who would tell me I was going to hell. After my mother died, I was lonely and tried to go to Sunday school at a Presbyterian church my friends at school belonged to. But the teacher asked me to leave. I did not fit in both because I had not been raised with god and also because everyone else there was Chinese and I was white. I was hurt and felt I would never be able to fit into my junior high social set. In high school, I joined a Christian prayer group, again because of a girl friend I liked. But I felt uncomfortable and bored and stopped going. She more or less dropped me then. My first boyfriend was a Baptist and I went to church with him for a while. The ping pong table in the basement was a lot of fun!
My sister raised her children in the Eastern Orthodox church, to my father's dismay. Her oldest daughter has married a Catholic and seems pious. As far as I can tell, my sister's other children don't follow any religion. Neither does my sister. She regrets the time she spent in the Church, as she was not treated well.
After I was grown up, my father would talk about inviting Jehovah's Witnesses into his living room to talk about the bible. It turned out he had been raised Presbyterian and new the Bible backwards and forwards. He liked to argue with them for fun. He didn't seem to take it seriously. I discovered that I could get rid of Witnesses at the door, saving both of us time, just by politely informing them that I was an atheist, and therefore a hopeless task for them. I was always very nice to them. I liked them, but I did not like it when people tried to convert me. It seemed tedious. It was always the same and they always seemed so sure that I was a hole waiting to be filled with their message, that I had no inner life of my own making, and was somehow damaged. I thought they presumed too much.
I never got into any trouble as a teenager, despite virtually no supervision. I got good grades, did not even try drugs or alcohol, did not party or behave badly. I did not lie to anyone. I went to a good college and worked hard. I was a bit of science nerd. I did suffer from depression at times, after losing my mother as a young teen and from a couple of difficult relationships. But once I was an adult, I never felt any impulse to turn to religion no matter how bad things got. It did not ever occur to me. I have no interest in the occult either. In fact, séances and other occult matters always make me smile a little. They seem funny, like really big noses or ears.
Last weekend I read in a Catholic magazine that 10% of all Americans are former Catholics. I thought that was a huge number.
Alty, You explain very well and I am the master of the too-long post, not you!
I think many people give themselves permission to question things within their faith and I always enjoy hearing about that, because it feels dynamic and alive to me. It seems natural to me to try to improve one's understanding of the world, whether through religious thought or through scientific thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
Actually, I think many people would agree with you. I read Conscience, the magazine of Catholic opinion and it is very open to thinking about things the way you describe. I'm guessing you might like it. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
I guess I would partly disagree with this. For a religion to maintain itself, it needs to have rules and enforce those. But I think every religion that lasts has to accommodate doubt and changes in values. The Jewish religion involves lots of questioning and rethinking the right and wrong way of living and dealing with specific issues. To me, there seems to be lots of questioning. And although the Catholic church has often repressed expressions of doubt, Catholics as a group have been the source of many great ideas and impulses. And even the Church has changed its thinking over the years. They forgave Galileo, they stopped endorsing slavery, they stopped banning usery, and so on. I don't have a sense of how well other religions accommodate questioning and change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
During the 1990s, I did at least two years of heavy research on all the Texas Indian tribes as part of a contract to a publisher to write three books. Over time, the more I dug into Indian life and beliefs, the more I came to realize was that the Great Spirit those Indians were in awe of was probably the same one I worship. Yes, they "muddied the waters" with minor gods who were in control of the wind and the lightning and the harvest, and they had an oral tradition of very human and understandable stories to explain things, like how the world began or how the buffalo got his hump. But isn't that what most religions do--pass down stories so the unexplainable can be within the grasp of the human mind?Quote:
Originally Posted by asking
Atheists on here constantly say that my God does not exist - are you telling me that they are being hurtful and disparaging and disrespectful of Christianity?Quote:
Originally Posted by asking
Can we see eye to eye in the religions we subscribe to(or lack of religion)?
NO,look at this thread and see how idealists believe and cause arguments to arise?
I thought this was going to be a new look at the different followings and how we can see things in a similar way,but this is becoming the same ol same o,l 'he said she said'.
Obviously,this is a dead subject for me and I'll remove myself from further discussion.
Hope you see this for what it is becoming,Princess alty... and redirect the focus when you return.
Hope the funeral went OK and sorry to hear of the loss.
KBC
KBC, I don't think it's going that badly. So far we are discussing our different beliefs and doing it fairly respectfully. Considering that the topic is religion, and that's always a touchy subject, I think it's going fairly well.
I don't think we'll see eye to eye on everything, but I do think we can learn to respect eachothers beliefs.
If it does become argumentative then I will be the first one to request that this thread be closed. So far the majority of the people coming here are being rspectful and just sharing their beliefs and how they came to be.
The funeral was okay. It was in the Catholic church where I live, boy did that bring back memories. The same church of my child hood years, and I was a bit shaky when going inside.
I sat there with my husband and when we all rose and the priest started his sermon I answered in unison with the rest of the congregation, "And the lord be with you" , "praise be to God", at one point I looked around and realized, no matter how many years go by, as soon as I step inside a church it's like I never left. All of us bowing our heads, standing, sitting, kneeling at the same time. The Lord's prayer, the breaking of the bread, communion and the singing (by the way, wow, the choir really needs some work, eeek! ;)). I felt like I was a child again.
When everyone went up to receive communion, I didn't budge, didn't leave my seat. Hubby (who's never been to church except for weddings and funerals) asked why I wasn't going up. I'm not Catholic, was my answer. He said "Do you think they know that?" Of course not, but I can't receive communion, it's not allowed, I've never received communion in a Catholic church. Still the old feelings, the feeling of not being accepted, not fitting in.
It was a relief when the service was over.
I find it strange that even after all this time the church can still bring back all the negative feelings I had as a child. I know it was my imagination, but while we were there today, I felt like every eye was on me and that they were all secretly saying "you don't belong, get out". But I knew all the words, knew all the motions, but no matter what I still don't belong.
One thing I do want to ask. I've asked it before but I've never gotten an answer and I find it interesting. Christians claim that every part of the bible is imortant. In fact, when I said that every religion picks the parts of the bible that are pertinent to their faith Tj3 said, no, most Christians follow the bible in it's entirety. In other words, every part of what is written in the bible should be followed and adhered to.
Now, the 10 commandments are like the law, are they not? If you break one of the ten commandments, don't you go to hell, regardless of what you believe? Well, "Thou shallt not worship false idols" is one of the commandments, yet, when I walked into the church, there's the customary 7 foot Jesus hanging from the cross, I've never been to a church that didn't have at least one of these statues. Gold, with silver, right in front of the church, waiting to be worshiped. So, isn't it true that every time you go to church you are in fact breaking one of the commandments? That's always puzzled me, especially because I've been told that you are not to interpret the bible to suit your own needs, it's to be followed word for word. Well, that commandment is pretty clear, so why isn't it being followed?
I'm not asking this to start an argument, I just really want to know.
No. The commandments are guides to teach us the right thing to do. The center of each is love but God knows we humans don't always understand how to give unconditional love, so the commandments are like Mom would say to her young kids, "Don't do this" and "Don't do that." We don't hear a lot about unconditional love until we meet Jesus in the New Testament (although there's lots of it in the Old Testament -- you just have to look a little harder for it most of the time).Quote:
Originally Posted by Altenweg
No. The statues are reminders of Bible stories. In fact, in the medieval church, because parishioners didn't know how to read, there were lots of statuary and stained glass windows. The priest or minister would point to various objects and pictures to help people understand, to illustrate his sermon or homily. The statues aren't there to be worshipped. They are a learning tool.Quote:
"Thou shallt not worship false idols" is one of the commandments, yet, when I walked into the church, there's the customary 7 foot Jesus hanging from the cross, I've never been to a church that didn't have at least one of these statues. Gold, with silver, right in front of the church, waiting to be worshiped. So, isn't it true that every time you go to church you are in fact breaking one of the commandments?
My church has a huge stained glass window behind the altar. The center is a picture of Jesus the Good Shepherd with several sheep at his feet. The pastor might preach about Jesus as our shepherd and that we are his sheep, and what that all means. All around on that same picture window are small groups of people and things from various Bible stories--Adam and Eve in the Garden, the 12 apostles, Noah's ark, a leather-looking drawstring bag with some pieces of silver falling out (Judas's story), and many other scenes taken from the Bible. Our pastor said he can tell the entire story of the Bible and salvation by walking from one side of this huge window to the other.
The tall stained glass windows that line each side of the nave (main church section where the people sit) may show off pictures of the saints or of the apostles or of OT people. My church's nave windows feature Old and New Testament people, and surrounding the altar are small statues of the twelve apostles.
The colors of the altar cloths and the stole that the pastor or priest wears over his shoulders (if he does) also have significance. There's a reason why the priest/pastor doesn't wear red socks. There's a reason why the choir (and the pastor) wear robes. There's meaning in what is being said or sung--and when and how. The best thing I ever did was take a course that explained all this stuff. It makes worship much more meaningful, so I'm not sitting there worried about what others are thinking, but can get lost in looking at and experiencing all the symbolism around me.
Yes. I would say so. I don't believe anyone should say to you that there is absolutely no God, because (1) it's dismissive and unkind and (2) no one can ever know that. The comments I have seen were that there is no physical evidence for the existence of God, not that God does not exist. I have said, and I have seen other people say, that Belief in God is a matter of Faith not physical evidence. That's a different argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
What a person believes and what they know--based on evidence from the natural world-- are two different things. Sometimes people speaking of "knowing in their heart," or they use "know" as a synonym for "belief," and that can be confusing in these discussions. I would say of myself that I do not know about God in both senses of the word. But my understanding is that many Christians would say that they know God exists, by which they mean that they believe passionately in their heart that He exists and feel deeply that they have communicated with God, not that they could prove it in a court of law or the pages of a scientific journal.
In my mind, if we Could prove the existence of God, then belief would not longer be a matter of Faith and something would be lost. Or at least that's my understanding.
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