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Originally Posted by Altenweg

Most religious people think that all atheist believe in God or are longing to.

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I never heard that from anyone.

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Not believing in God is not a faith based thing, atheists just don't see proof for God, therefore they choose not to believe.

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Actually, if there is no evidence, then they choose to believe that there is no God.

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Originally Posted by xxariesxx

No one can prove it either way obviously.

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I disagree. I believe that there is indeed evidence for the existence of God. But even if you take your approach, then you would have say both sides are faiths. I have no issue with that.

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I get the feeling you think I'm personally attacking you. I'm not out to disprove there is a God. I just don't believe in religion whatsoever.

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Not at all. So far I have seen no attacks from you. You are welcome to believe what you wish.

Thank you Alty

It's true that the stereotype is that religious people feel that atheists wish they could believe in God, or that they are lost and need help. The fact is that most atheists just simply don't believe in it, not because they are "angry" at God or are depressed and hopeless people, they can just see things that others perhaps can not.
It's all a matter of perspective.

I see religion like I see any cultural practice, like dance. Or art. Or food ceremonies. I guess if you want to say I have faith in art or dance or something then it makes sense. But only to that point.

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Originally Posted by xxariesxx

I see religion like I see any cultural practice, like dance. Or art. Or food ceremonies. I guess if you want to say I have faith in art or dance or something then it makes sense. But only to that point.

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We can see these ceremonies. We can see art. We can see dance. They are clearly real and be proven to exist.

Belief that there is no God is just that - a belief. A faith.

Further, since Christianity believes that there will be a judgment after you die. Atheists do not accept Christ as Saviour because they have faith that there will be no judgment, though they have no evidence that there will not be.

xxariesxx, I'm one of those people who believes in God but not all the trappings. I'm a Deist, so my faith is based more on belief of what I feel is out there not on what anyone can prove is out there.

I love discussing other's beliefs, sadly, the only ones willing and open minded enough to discuss religious beliefs with me, so far, have been Atheists and a handful of Christians.

Not one Atheist on this board has ever told me that my beliefs are wrong, but many Christians have, because I don't believe what they do.

I truly believe that everyone has a right to believe, or not believe, what they choose. That's what makes this world so interesting, many different people with many different views. :)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

We can see these ceremonies. We can see art. We can see dance. They are clearly real and be proven to exist.

Belief that there is no God is just that - a belief.

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My point is that these are all cultural and societal practices. Not universals.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

xxariesxx, I'm one of those people who believes in God but not all the trappings. I'm a Deist, so my faith is based more on belief of what I feel is out there not on what anyone can prove is out there.

I love discussing other's beliefs, sadly, the only ones willing and open minded enough to discuss religious beliefs with me, so far, have been Atheists and a handful of Christians.

Not one Atheist on this board has ever told me that my beliefs are wrong, but many Christians have, because I don't believe what they do.

I truly believe that everyone has a right to believe, or not believe, what they choose. That's what makes this world so interesting, many different people with many different views. :)

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Exactly! I don't want to attack anyone for their beliefs, I just wish more could be open minded and discuss it all rationally as well :)

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Originally Posted by xxariesxx

Exactly! I don't want to attack anyone for their beliefs, I just wish more could be open minded and discuss it all rationally as well :)

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It could happen on a smaller scale, but on a site like this, with so many different people and so many different beliefs, it's not easy to have a rational discussion about religion. Religion can be a touchy subject to some people, and many die hard Christians cannot accept any way but their own.

It would be nice to actually discuss our differneces with open minded people of all faiths. Is it possible? I don't know, but I wish it was.

I have many friends on this site that are Atheists, I also have friends that are Christians, and others of different faiths. We all get along well, because we respect each other as human beings. Sadly, that respect is usually missing on the religious discussion sites.

If you ever want to have a discussion with me about our different beliefs, I'd be more than happy to listen to what you have to say. :)

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

It could happen on a smaller scale, but on a site like this, with so many different people and so many different beliefs, it's not easy to have a rational discussion about religion. Religion can be a touchy subject to some people, and many die hard Christians cannot accept any way but their own.

It would be nice to actually discuss our differneces with open minded people of all faiths. Is it possible? I don't know, but I wish it was.

I have many friends on this site that are Atheists, I also have friends that are Christians, and others of different faiths. We all get along well, because we respect eachother as human beings. Sadly, that respect is usually missing on the religious discussion sites.

If you ever want to have a discussion with me about our different beliefs, I'd be more than happy to listen to what you have to say. :)

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Thanks :) The same to you, I'm always up to listen and discuss.

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Originally Posted by xxariesxx

My point is that these are all cultural and societal practices. Not universals.

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But there is a difference. Cultural practices do not require you to believe this or that. But religions are a matter of what one believes about God - who He is, His nature, if He exists. Some culture may build their god into their culture, but one does not have to be of a specific culture to be Christian (for example).

For christians, god is universal. He's in everything.

Honestly, the main point is about something we all have, our spirit, or heart and mind. That which motivates us to act.

I believe there's something better for us, as we are purged from hate, unforgiveness, pride, lust, covetousness(drawing everything to us) which causes stealing, jealousy, haughtiness(putting others down for our benefit), murder, etc... you can see that their absence in our heart would make a better world.
Atheists may attempt to change, but christians rely on god to show them exactly where they lack, and receive strength from him to change. He's the pattern.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems that atheists, without god directing them, do whatever they please, and give no thought to examining their hearts to the end of stopping harmful ways?

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Originally Posted by cogs

for christians, god is universal. he's in everything.

honestly, the main point is about something we all have, our spirit, or heart and mind. that which motivates us to act.

i believe there's something better for us, as we are purged from hate, unforgiveness, pride, lust, covetousness(drawing everything to us) which causes stealing, jealousy, haughtiness(putting others down for our benefit), murder, etc... you can see that their absence in our heart would make a better world.
atheists may attempt to change, but christians rely on god to show them exactly where they lack, and receive strength from him to change. he's the pattern.
tell me if i'm wrong, but it seems that atheists, without god directing them, do whatever they please, and give no thought to examining their hearts to the end of stopping harmful ways?

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I know what's going to happen when I say this, but please read it with an open mind and heart.

I know many Atheists that are far more decent people than the Christians I went to school with. Most of the Atheists I know do charity work, help their fellow man, are good, kind, caring people. The absence of God in their lives hasn't made them do whatever they please, they just don't believe in God, that's it. Of course there are exceptions, but the same can be said for Christians. Just being Christian doesn't mean that you live a good life, that you do good deeds, that you make the world better. Christianity is just a title, it has nothing to do with what's inside a persons soul.

It's a choice, and we all have that choice, whether we believe in God or not. You can choose to be good, or you can choose to be bad, it doesn't matter if you are Atheist, Christian, Deist, whatever, we all have that choice.

So yes, I respectfully disagree.

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Originally Posted by cogs

tell me if i'm wrong, but it seems that atheists, without god directing them, do whatever they please, and give no thought to examining their hearts to the end of stopping harmful ways?

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The problem is that atheists do not have any basis for their behaviour. Some many choose to behave in an exemplary manner, others may not. In any case, their ethics can vary across the spectrum because there is absolutely no standard for behaviour or ethics other than the person's own motivation or perhaps what they view to be societal ethics.

Yes, I believe there is no mirror they look at to see their own sin. If they stumble across something they don't like within themselves, they either ignore it or try to do better.
I think it's about spiritual growth. We have no help if we don't have the spirit within us. There's no life-giving force that will work god's will through us, if we deny him.

And what about the Christians who still do bad things, what mirror are they looking at, or do they think that simply being a Christian will get them into heaven.

You can believe in God all you want, but if you're still a bad person here on earth, do you really think you'll still be accepted into heaven?

I know when I've sinned, I don't need God to tell me. I do believe in God, but I don't need to go to church or read the bible in order to believe. Those are just man made things, God didn't have a hand in it.

So go to church, kneel in front of your false idols (oops 1 commandment broken), go home and do what you want because you think you're immune because Jesus died for your sins. The rest of us will just try our best to be good people. Sin, yes, but still good people.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

The problem is that atheists do not have any basis for their behaviour.

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Of course that is total cr*p, and you know that. We had this same argument many times before, and my reply to your nonsense is still the same :

Atheists have the best and most honest basis of all : unlike theists their drive is based on fairness for all, not for the christian "reward-in-the-hereafter".
Atheists live on the basis of the golden rule.

Christianity is partly also based on that same golden rule, but the religion has basterdized the golden rule with all kinds of additional claims, promisses, and suggestions.

The Golden Rule : "Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing." (Thales)

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Yes you do have to believe in your culture to follow it. Yes you do have to be of a specific culture to be a Christian. If Christianity was universal, it would not be a cultural attribute. But it's not. There are many, many places in the world it is not practiced or believed, and so it is something passed down through generations and the society just like any other cultural practice.

People have a conscious for a reason; whether you're a Christian or not, one still regrets their actions, know what is right and wrong, feels guilt, etc.

If someone "stumbles", regardless of belief, yes they are going to ignore it or do better. It has nothing to do with religion. In fact I would argue that many times those that believe in religion would rather attribute negative things in the world to "God's will" than to find an actual solution to the issue.
God's will explains everything so often there is no need to question anything.

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Of course that is total cr*p, and you know that. We had this same argument many times before, and my reply to your nonsense is still the same :

Atheists have the best and most honest basis of all : unlike theists their drive is based on fairness for all, not for the christian "reward-in-the-hereafter".
Atheists live on the basis of the golden rule.

Christianity is partly also based on that same golden rule, but the religion has basterdized the golden rule with all kinds of additonal claims, promisses, and suggestions.

The Golden Rule : "Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing." (Thales)

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Cred,

Got to call you out on this one.. if you are living by the "golden rule" then you could have fooled me. You had never had a conversation with me before but one of your first comments to me was rude and judgemental... and all because I called myself a Christian. TSK TSK...

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

It's a choice, and we all have that choice, whether we believe in God or not. You can choose to be good, or you can choose to be bad, it doesn't matter if you are Atheist, Christian, Deist, whatever, we all have that choice.

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This captures my feelings very well.

The values I have I learned from my parents, friends, teachers, and books. I think the same is true of anyone who believes in God. We all learn our values from others. Whether we choose to believe those values ultimately came from God is a matter of faith. For many people God is a manifestation of goodness. And that works for me.

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Originally Posted by classyT

Cred,

Got to call you out on this one..if you are living by the "golden rule" then you could have fooled me. You had never had a conversation with me before but one of your first comments to me was rude and judgemental...and all because I called myself a Christian. TSK TSK.....

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Absolutely right.

The Golden Rule comes from the Bible, and it is not and certainly never has been a standard by which atheists live, and you pointed out an excellent example.