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Originally Posted by Tj3

Isa 48:16-17
So, who is speaking? We find out in verse 17:

17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

It is the Lord God who is speaking. The word LORD here is YHWH, so YHWH / God is who is sent. And since we are told that it is the Redeemer, and we know that the Redeemer is Jesus, we know that Jesus is YHWH, and Jesus is God.
NKJV

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The speaker is not the Redeemer. If you'll take the context from the 16, you'll see what it means.

The speaker said "Come near to Me, hear this:", this indicates as an herald. He's calling the recipient of the message to come near Him and hear his message.

The speaker introduce Himself and said " I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me"

Then, the speaker said "This is what the Lord, Your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel want to tell you--"I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. "

It does makes sense; He was sent to declare the proclamation of the Lord. This is in accordance to Biblical principle written in John 6:38.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. KJV

The speaker was sent to give the news and not to talk about Himself.

So, it doesn't make the Redeemer the speaker.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Criado
That's an interesting post.
Thanks,
Fred

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Thanks Fred.

Is it about naming the one being sent? The supporting verses for them are: Proverbs 8:22-30;1 ; I Corinthians 1:24

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
I read what you said with interest and thought.
You state the scripture must interpret itself.
Then why do you not allow that?

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Fred, if all you want to do is attack and lie about me, then I see no reason for you to be on the thread. The topic is the trinity.

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Originally Posted by cogs

or about what scripture does not say. this thread is about a single verse which i believe is translated inaccurately. in this verse i only know of 2 persons of god, himself and his spirit.

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Actually, no. I chose this passage ( not a single verse), as a starting point. With others who have denied the doctrine of the trinity, I have often started in Genesis. There are many starting points because the trinity is spoken of throughout the Bible.

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Originally Posted by Criado

The speaker is not the Redeemer. If you'll take the context from the 16, you'll see what it means.

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I believe Him when He says that He is.

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The speaker said "Come near to Me, hear this:", this indicates as an herald. He's calling the recipient of the message to come near Him and hear his message.

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Ok.

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The speaker introduce Himself and said " I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me"

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Yep.

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Then, the speaker said "This is what the Lord, Your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel want to tell you--"I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. "

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Note that you just altered what the Bible says. It does NOT say "Thisd is what...". It says:

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

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Originally Posted by Tj3

INote that you just altered what the Bible says. It does NOT say "Thisd is what...". It says:

Isa 48:17
17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

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Not really an alteration. I adopted some wording from the NIV-UK Version. And that's what the context conveyed.

It is very clear that Isaiah 48:17 is not a description for the "messenger" (the one sent).

As you may notice the first line, "Thus says the LORD,your Redeemer" is a more on conversive rather than narrative.

In addition, removing the verses number and writing it as it was originally written,will show continuous statement by the messenger rather than description about Himself.

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

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Originally Posted by Criado

Not really an alteration. I adopted some wording from the NIV-UK Version. And that's whta the context conveyed.

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The wording varies even from my NIV. But just the same if you read the wider context, it is still clear who is speaking. He identifies himself also in verse 12:

Isa 48:17
Listen to me, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
NIV

So we know that the NKJV translation is accurate. And we know who the first and last is:

Rev 1:17-18
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,[fn8] "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

As far as the trinity, yes, there is more evidence from scripture that god's power and being is dynamic. Since I'm flesh, I have to understand him in a way that makes sense to me. Jesus did say that before abraham was, I am. Jesus did miracles. Jesus was resurrected. Even from these three things, I can see god, his power through jesus, and his power over death. We never see god, and we never see his spirit. For that matter, we have never seen jesus. However, jesus said he would send god's spirit to us. This can be experienced through knowledge and miracles. So god's spirit is what I'm able to know. And scripture is what I'm able to read, and sometimes understand through his spirit in me. Regarding the trinity, god has done and will do whatever his dynamic spirit desires. I await his orders, and read the scripture he has preserved.

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Originally Posted by cogs

we never see god,

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We never see the father.

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And we never see his spirit.

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Not true.

John 1:32-33
32 And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.
NKJV

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for that matter, we have never seen jesus.

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Really? What Bible have you been reading. Jesus was seen in both the OT and NT.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

We never see the father.
Not true.

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Have you seen him?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

John 1:32-33
32 And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.
NKJV

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But you didn't see the dove.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Really? What Bible have you been reading. Jesus was seen in both the OT and NT.

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But you haven't seen jesus, have you? My point was since we cannot see god, we have to take what we know of him, to experience him. Just read the rest of my previous post. And by the way, could you not read between the lines and understand what I was saying?

Why do some say that no one has seen God the Father when the bible says that Moses saw Him face to face and Abraham and his wife and others saw him when He dined with them and ate an entire fatted steer and much more.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Why do some say that no one has seen God the Father when the bible says that Moses saw Him face to face and Abraham and his wife and others saw him when He dined with them and ate an entire fatted steer and much more.?

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Good question.

Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers.
Jhn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

I think the point is not that we visualize god, which is based on the physical, but that we spiritually come into contact with his will.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

the wording varies even from my NIV. But just the same if you read the wider context, it is still clear who is speaking. He identifies himself also in verse 12:

Isa 48:17
Listen to me, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
NIV

So we know that the NKJV translation is accurate. And we know who the first and last is:

Rev 1:17-18
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,[fn8] "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

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We have no problem as to who is the "the First and the Last". The question is who said this particular phrase below? Was it the speaker (the one sent)?

Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;

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Originally Posted by Criado

We have no problem as to who is the "the First and the Last". The question is who said this particular phrase below? Was it the speaker (the one sent)?

Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;

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Read the whole context. It is the same person.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Why do some say that no one has seen God the Father when the bible says that Moses saw Him face to face and Abraham and his wife and others saw him when He dined with them and ate an entire fatted steer and much more.?

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Does the Bible say that they saw God the Father? Or does it say that they saw God. Read again, Fred.

I believe it when Jesus says that no one but Him has seen the father.

John 6:46-47
46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
NKJV

Tj3,
That is a good answer.
Excellent even.
Congratulations.
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Read the whole context. It is the same person.

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Do you mean to say the speaker is the one who said this particular phrase? "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;"

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Originally Posted by Criado

Do you mean to say the speaker is the one who said this particular phrase? "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;"

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That is what the text says, so yes.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

That is what the text says, so yes.

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Since you said that the speaker is the one that said the particular phrase "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;" then it follows that He is not the Redeemer.

Here's a parallel verse:

Exodus 7:17 Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.

The red colored text is the speakers' words and he is talking about what the Lord said. And the blue text is what the Lord said.

Likewise,

Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

The red colored text is the speakers' words and He is talking about what the Lord said and not about Himself.

That makes the speaker not the Redeemer the speaker is talking about.

Crido,
It appears to me that the author is identifying who the Lord is who said the words in blue.
Peace and kindness,
Fred