Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

I strongly support an OFFICIAL legal arrangement that one can put in one's will to ensure that one is allowed to die when all other dignified options are finished.

---

A Will is not the place to cover this - a Will is read/probated following death, also does not take effect until after death.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

A Will is not the place to cover this - a Will is read/probated following death, also does not take effect until after death.

---

Point taken. What other legal process do you suggest more appropriate?

:)

·

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

A Will is not the place to cover this - a Will is read/probated following death, also does not take effect until after death.

---

I was thinking that too. It has to be a living will that your lawyer has for when the situation arises.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Point taken. What other legal process do you suggest more appropriate?]

---

Living Will, Do Not Resuscitate Order - but I've posted this before. My husband was a Doctor of Pharmacy, thought he knew how to guarantee his wishes would be followed, knew he was a dying man, had a DNR, a Living Will - made his intent and wishes very well known to all his Doctors as well as family.

During his final hospitalization he was resuscitated 3 times - one time the hospital didn't have the DNR because it was in the file from his previous hospitalization and they hadn't combined the files yet (I had also handed them a copy when he was admitted); once he "simply stopped breathing" but had no cardiac complications so he was put on a ventilator; once the explanation was, "Whoops." I never would have known about the 3rd Resuscitation except for the paddle/burn marks on his chest.

He suffered beyond words for over 3 weeks. Twenty-two times they told me there was over a 60% chance that he would not live through the night.

His suffering was horrific and I had to watch this man who really was my world go through it - and I was helpless. In the end every test had been done, some of them twice, he was medically and legally brain dead, he responded to nothing (not pain, not light, not sounds) and the Social Worker appeared (I have no idea where she had been hiding for over 3 weeks), found out he had long term health care insurance and suggested I make inquiries into nursing homes. That's when I called my Attorney.

The day my husband died I fought the hospital which insisted he have dialysis while waiting for hospice to arrive. They lost the fight.

I wish I had an answer - I don't know how you protect yourself or your loved ones. I truly agonize over the whole experience and I have no idea what I could have done.

I would have died for him - and I was helpless to do anything but hold his hand and watch him pass, a shell of who he was - after over 3 horrific weeks which served absolutely no purpose.

I heard you can sue if they do not follow the DNR.

You did everything you could have. Sometimes situations happen that make a mess of things.

Yes it is hard, but to follow up with the original question, the state execution and the natural dying of someone is two different things.
The state has the right to decide the punishment and even from most of the major religions they have always reconised this right that the state has to punish criminals, As for allowing a person to die, while there should be no direct causing it, suicide, if a persons body is to the point of death and only being keep alive with machines ( not counting feeding) then a person should have the right to decide to refuse medical treatment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Yes it is hard, but to follow up with the orginal question, the state execution and the natural dying of someone is two different things.
The state has the right to decide the punishment and even from most of the major religions they have always reconised this right that the state has to punish criminals, As for allowing a person to die, while there should be no direct causing it, sucide, if a persons body is to the point of death and only being keep alive with machines ( not counting feeding) then a person should have the right to decide to refuse medical treatment.

---

But how do you make certain your wishes will be followed? As I said - all of this was covered and still I was helpless.

Thanks JudyKayTee, Nohelp4u, and Fr. Chuck for your posts.
Seems that we still do not have a modus that provides some clarity on the procedure that is followed, how such a procedure is ensured, and what guarantees we have that - goodwilling - hospital staff sidesteps such clear instructions.

Also thanks JudyKayTee for your story on what you and your husband had to go through.
I am much obliged for your report !

:)

·

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Choux

Box guy,

Theology is the study of god fantasy and make believe. YOu don't seem to understand the basis of your religion.

The basis of Christianity is that GodAlmighty will torment you in hell for *eternity* if you, his "beloved" creation do not follow his rules. Salvation is the only way an individual can escape this horrific situation and "go to heaven".

That is what you BELIEVE whether you understand it or not.

It is not true, you just *believe it is true*. It is religion, faith.

---

Choux

If you think God and Christianity are just fantasies, why is it that you insist that You alone know what these "fantasies" consist of?

Despite what you may believe about God and Christianity, and this probably stems from some emotional trauma at the hands of Christians, which is inexcusable, God loves you. :D

John 3:16 :)

The parable of the prodigal son. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by inthebox

God loves you.

---

That is what you BELIEVE ...

:rolleyes:

·

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by michealb

But I still say if you are so sure that paradise awaits you why not go as soon as possible. It seems like a simple logic problem to me. If your here and you are sure over there is better why not go over there as soon as you can. Of course as an atheist every moment I'm here is precious because there isn't somewhere better to go, so my goal is to live as long as possible but for christians you should logically have the exact opposite goal. To live a short of a life as possible with very little sin and of course the shorter you live the less time you will have to be temped by sin.

---

"Paradise" is my selfish motive. :( You don't have to believe in God, you see people chase "paradise" through drugs, or sex, or materialism, or whatever happens to float their boat.

A Christ follower's life is not his own, it is surrendered to God. It is His blood that covers all sin. He calls us to love and serve others just as He has done with us. 1 John.

He tells us that this life is not about us, but of God's, Luke 14 :26-27, 33. "thy will be done."
And it isn't going to be easy: "take up your cross," "the first will be last," Blessed are the meek, the poor in spirit," there will be persecutions, etc...

But faith, hope, love, joy, peace these are the fruit of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22-23. You don't have to wait till you die for it. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by inthebox

But faith, hope, love, joy, peace these are the fruit of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22-23. You don't have to wait till you die for it.

---

That is what you BELIEVE !

:rolleyes:

·

Yes, it is what I believe, backed up Biblically.

I wanted to point out the error in Michaelb's logic. That error stems from common misconceptions about Christianity, perpetuated by people, in this case, who don't believe in God or Christianity. ;)

Quote:

---

What is so special in this case is that it is the first ever Italian court decision to allow suspending of any medical treatment and (artificial) ways of sustaining life. And also that the judgment drew instant criticism from the Vatican, which condemned it as as euthanasia.

---

I actually disagree with the Vatican's definition of euthanasia on this.

Living wills or advanced directives allow for withholding treatment, and allowing a person to die. This even happens in the Catholic hospital I work at. ;)

I still don't see the error in my logic. Just because people chase paradise on earth doesn't really have anything to do with my argument. Even if you have everything you ever wanted on earth and have wealth of spirit, heaven would still suppose to be better. Why would you delay going there?

A Christ follower's life is not his own, it is surrendered to God. It is His blood that covers all sin. He calls us to love and serve others just as He has done with us. 1 John.

Really kids, can't we just agree to disagree already. No one is going to convince the opposing side that they are right, it isn't possible.

Quoting the bible isn't going to work, talking about your faith isn't going to work, nothing is going to work. If you all want to fight then fine, go for it, but this fight is a lesson in futility.

The atheists don't believe in God, they will do everything to dispute the existence of God, the Christians believe in God and will do everything to dispute the atheists . Do you really think that anyone is going to change their beliefs because of what is said here? If anything, the only result is anger.

So, believe what you believe, be happy with that belief, and your right to believe it. You do not have to explain or justify your belief, and doing so will get you no where.

I'm just so darn tired of all the fighting. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altenweg

The atheists don't believe in God, they will do everything to dispute the existence of God...

---

Total nonsense!!
All I ask for is objective supporting evidence for the existence of a "God" deity with all the supra-natural powers as is claimed.
I have asked that thousands of time - if not more. Never has anyone really attempted to provide that evidence.

STILL theists seem to be incapable of admitting that all they BELIEVE is based on dogmatic claims that can not be checked, therefore have no basis of objective supported evidence.

My conclusion therefore can only be : theists deep down know that what ever they believe is dogmatic bull manure, but can't bring themselves to admit that.

Believe whatever you want, but respect that any other world view is just as valid as your own world view. I do. Most theists can't do that.

Now : why would that be??

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

·

Boxed in Guy,

What you *BELIEVE* is just fantasy (and nonsense!)to me and a majority of folks on planet earth. :D

Quote:

---

Total nonsense!!
All I ask for is objective supporting evidence for the existence of a "God" deity with all the supra-natural powers as is claimed.
I have asked that thousands of time - if not more. Never has anyone really attempted to provide that evidence.

---

It's not my job to prove it to you, and you don't really want proof Cred, you want to fight, I've read your posts. I find it very amusing that a man that doesn't believe in God spends the majority of his time on the religious boards putting down peoples beliefs and starting arguments.

When something is said that you cannot dispute, you start name calling and or picking out spelling errors etc. You amuse me. What do you hope to accomplish? Do you want people to stop believing in God, give up and come to your side? What is all this arguing and fighting about? Can't you just accept peoples beliefs?

Tell you what, you want proof that God exists, well I want proof that he doesn't. Substantial proof, not just, can you see him, no, therefore he doesn't exist. Don't quote the bible, because I don't believe in the bible. Prove it to me.

Good luck. :)