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Originally Posted by margog85

firmbeliever- I'm glad that your happy with your beliefs, but I really didn't gather from your response why you believe what you do, except that it makes sense to you and that it provides answers to your questions. But do you ever wonder if your beliefs are 'right'- like, if what you believe about god is actually what really is? Because there are so many religions out there, all of which make sense to and provide answers to those who believe in that religion. Are all religions equally valid, and truth something relative? I have a really hard time understanding that.
own physical capacity to control, not something we get from some outside source?


And in regard to whatever this debating is all about... I'm not touching that one. lol. I'm not here to argue or accuse anyone of forcing their beliefs or discuss how religious people do or do not conduct themselves- I just have questions and want to hear from people and discuss their answers. That's all.

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I personally believe I am following the right one,because my beliefs do not negate in totality the Jewish or Christian beliefs or other pure monotheistic beliefs of ancient times.
I believe it has been the same religion since the beginning of the first human, and that it has been passed down in every generation somewhere in the world.

And also believe that there has been changes made into pure monotheism by different generations by adopting polytheism or denial of a Creator.

I believe I am following the last of the Messengers and I do not reject any of the previous ones in the sense that I follow strict monotheism,no praying to statues or humans or nature.

And I do believe my faith to be the true faith and I have no doubts about it at all.

I can give you few examples of why I have already crossed out other monotheistic religions as I believe those not being true,and this is not to offend anyone but just to state my personal beliefs on it.

Judaism-their belief that they are the chosen people for all time.
Christianity-trinity and that Jesus(alaihi salaam) was the son of God does not make sense to me in that an Almighty Creator of this universe needing a human son or any other partner is difficult for me to imagine.

Now when I listed the above faiths,it does not mean that I do not believe that Judaism and Christianity as a whole,because I believe in the existence of Jesus(alaihi salaam) and the existence of Moses(alaihi salaam) and many other messengers before them,but I do believe that each of those messengers preached monotheism.


:)

Margog85 you said... "and like saying you 'feel' something is not a dependable reason for 'believing' in something, because how you feel can be influenced by so many different things.."

We choose how we feel. Nobody and nothing can make you feel anything you don't wan't to, even pain. We can allow ourselves to follow the group and feel the way that is "appropriate," or we can pick our own road.

An ultimate higher power can be what we choose to feel the presence of or we might choose the God of the Jewish people, or the Christians, or pure logic and proven facts. Anything we choose is fine because we have free will.

Margog – Let me just first say, I am touched by your beauty within, it illumanates in your post and thank you so much for addressing me and taking the time to read my post. It makes me smile :)

Don't get me wrong, I do love life, my husband, family and others. When I say that my life without God's love would be bleek, by that I mean, when I see the starving children in this country and others, it would devastate me so much more, to not know that God is right there with them, and will ultimately carry them home.

When I see unkindness, or people hurt and devastated, it would kill me that they would have to forever suffer. When I see people stricken with an illness, cancer or any type, I would be at such a loss at all the pain. But having God's love in my heart, I have such a peace, as I know God will take care of them and protect them. That, this life is just a preliminary, to the ultimate one that awaits us.

I think that's more of what I mean, that such things as that would be so hard to digest, without knowing that God has a bigger plan for all those who do suffer.

I've never questioned my faith, that I may be wrong. Actually, it's the one area in my life, that I never did wonder if I may not be right. All other areas, I basically question all the time, it keeps my mind open to learn new things.

The reason that I never have questioned, as God has been so good to me, and I always feel His love and protection. I also feel His disappointment with me, when I go wrong or do wrong.

Margog, you sound as though you have a beautiful spirituality within you. You hold on to that. It's no different then any other type of spirituality, it may just be defined differently, but I can tell, you carry a great deal of love for all within you, and that is truly what it is all about.

Yes, there are many different faiths all of which I do respect. I've always just defined it for myself, that all faiths are just roads to Our loving Father.

I don't think God wants us all to be exactly the same, that is why he gave us free will, but He does want us to carry the type of love that you do, within our hearts, for each other.

Bless the beautiful person that you are.

I don't have much time right now to respond to any of these posts, but I wanted to recommend a book to you, Allheart, if you haven't already read it.

Life of Pi, by Yan Martel. I think you'd really really enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by margog85

I don't have much time right now to respond to any of these posts, but I wanted to recommend a book to you, Allheart, if you haven't already read it.

Life of Pi, by Yan Martel. I think you'd really really enjoy it.

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Thank you so much Margog - I never have read of the book, but did just look it up and is sounds wonderful to read. Will be getting it - Thanks again :)

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

and what do you think that other power out there may be???:rolleyes:

she could ask a rabbi even

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Well, don't you see, NOhelp, that other power who created her could be the ocean, or a rock or an animal. Some people actually believe that, but then we just have to ask but WHO created that ocean, that rock or that animal if it wasn't God with His almighty omnipotent power of creation.

Faith is a gift from God. Our intellect and ability to reason can lead us to believe in God. But to truly have faith, that is to act and live our lives for our creator, is a gift. One must pray for faith or an increase in faith.

Just another thought. Just because an idea is old does not necessarily mean it is false. In fact, the opposite may be true. To the people of the first century, the writings of The New Testament were current. Like wise for the people of The Old Testament. If The Scriptures were true then, they are true now.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

I wasn't indoctrinated when I was growing up. When I was little I 'knew' there had to be something and nobody ever really explained it to me.

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Sorry, but I can not accept that. When you were very little you had no idea who you were or what was happening. While growing up you were embedded in religion, so you "learned" religion just as you learned and were stimulated to crawl or to walk, or to "potty", etc.
The continuous process of religious upbringing is a kind of brain washing, so later started thinking that you "knew" there had to be something.

Do you really think that if nobody had ever taught you to "potty", you would as an older child be house-trained?
Do you really think that if nobody had ever taught you to religion, you would as an older child have believed in "God"?

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by SkyGem

Some people actually believe that, but then we just have to ask but WHO created that ocean, that rock or that animal if it wasn't God with His almighty omnipotent power of creation.

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So you accept the religious claim of the existence of a deity called "God" with that "God" being the "Creator" - WITHOUT any objective supporting evidence, but you reject scientific supported theories and thesis explaining and (part) supporting the origin of the universe and/or evolution, etc. Scientific theories and thesis that include various cross-linked or multi-supported links?

:rolleyes:

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"Do you really think that if nobody had ever taught you to religion, you would as an older child have believed in "God"? "


One of my first memories is sitting on the steps listening to my grandmother reading from the bible. I was always taken to church, went to church probably until I was 14 years old.

I don't really believe or not believe in fact, I don't know what to make of all of this religion non religion stuff.. everyone keeps going on about.

I have an elderly neighbor that said his parents never went to church, never discussed the bible, God or religion in the home. He is a die hard believer...

So maybe Nohelps upbringing does not have anything to do with her faith in God.

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Originally Posted by Wangdoodle

Faith is a gift from God.

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You BELIEVE that Faith is a gift from God.
You BELIEVE that Our intellect and ability to reason can lead us to believe in God.

"Just because an idea is old does not necessarily mean it is false".
Neither does any (opposing) new idea necessarily mean that it is false !

You BELIEVE that In fact, the opposite may be true.

"If The Scriptures were true then, they are true now".
If you BELIEVE the Scriptures were true than , than they are true now.

Which leaves us again at the basic question about religion : where is the objective supported evidence for the existence of a deity called "God", and for that "God" being the "Creator"?
There is no such evidence. ALL ONE CAN DO IS BELIEVE THAT.

:rolleyes:

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Just as I suspected
Wangdoodle did not say fact he did not say this IS the way it is
Wangdoodle simply stated his opinion and Cred has to make an issue with
The YOU Believe

Dah YEAH it is his post so whatever he says in HIS post is what HE believes

Wangdoodle doesn't need objective support for what he believes he can share what he believes and *most* of us can accept it as what he believes without the I BELIEVE
It goes without saying

What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?

Margog's question was What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?

NOT where is the objective supported evidence for the existence of a deity called "God", and for that "God" being the "Creator"?:rolleyes:

Let's set up a situation, suppose that you are standing on a clift and the ground gives away beneath you and you drop for a long ways but you see a tree root and you grab it. Since you have not been able to find any other power that might save you, but since you have heard of GOD when you were young you call out to GOD to save you. A voice from above says, do you have faith, and you say yes I do. Then the voice says if you have faith turn loose of the tree root. If you really have faith in GOD you will follow that faith and turn loose of the root not knowing what was in store for you. To me that would be a true faith.

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Originally Posted by Wangdoodle

Faith is a gift from God. Our intellect and ability to reason can lead us to believe in God. But to truly have faith, that is to act and live our lives for our creator, is a gift. One must pray for faith or an increase in faith.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

Just as I suspected . Wangdoodle did not say fact he did not say this IS the way it is wangdoodle simply stated his opinion and Cred has to make an issue with
The YOU BELEIVE

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"Faith is a gift from God" is a statement unsupported by any objective evidence, so it is a claim, it is what Wangdoodle BELIEVES !

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

wangdoodle doesn't need objective support for what he believes

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True, of course not. I never stated that he should. Still it is true that he only BELIEVES the statements he made are true, and that so far he failed to provide objective supporting evidence for his claims.

Anyone here may from me make even the wildest religious claims and statements. And I am allowed every time I feel appropriate to mention that that is what it is : BELIEF AND NOTHING ELSE!!

Since when is it not allowed to state that here on the Discussion boards?

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

"Faith is a gift from God" is a statement unsupported by any objective evidence, so it is a claim, it is what Wangdoodle BELIEVES !


True, of course not. I never stated that he should. Still it is true that he only BELIEVES the statements he made are true, and that so far he failed to provide objective supporting evidence for his claims.

Anyone here may from me make even the wildest religious claims and statements. And I am allowed every time I feel appropriate to mention that that is what it is : BELIEF AND NOTHING ELSE !!!

Since when is it not allowed to state that here on the Discussion boards?

:rolleyes:

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EXACTLY it is what he believes and the question was What the heck is 'faith' all about, and how can you really 'believe'?

So you still haven't answered my question why do people have to include this is what I believe or you feel they are stating what they say as them insisting it is fact?

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

EXACTLY it is what he believes

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Yes, and that is precisely the problem. The questions "what is faith about" and "how can you believe" is answered with what he believes. An example of circular argumentation : I believe it because I believe it...

A LOGICAL "NO" "NO" !!!

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

"Faith is a gift from God" is a statement unsupported by any objective evidence, so it is a claim, it is what Wangdoodle BELIEVES !


True, of course not. I never stated that he should. Still it is true that he only BELIEVES the statements he made are true, and that so far he failed to provide objective supporting evidence for his claims.

Anyone here may from me make even the wildest religious claims and statements. And I am allowed every time I feel appropriate to mention that that is what it is : BELIEF AND NOTHING ELSE !!!

Since when is it not allowed to state that here on the Discussion boards?

:rolleyes:

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You still haven't answered my question which has been why you must emphasis that is what you believe? You CLAIM you do not do that but everybody can see you do.
There are posts after posts where you point out that is what you believe it is not fact where is your objective support.
We all agree that is what they believe so why keep pointing it out with a new reply to state that is what we believe.
I have a feeling you do not want to answer the question and we are just going to keep going around and around about it.


P.S. I don't care if you don't believe that when I was 2 years old and even older that I knew there was something more. I was never taught or told anything religious until I was around 12.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

You still haven't answered my question which has been why you must emphasis that is what you believe?

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My main theme here on Religious discussions is not what I believe, but the total lack of objective support for religious claims.
And I see that you changed directions, now you realize that what Wangdoodle stated is what he believes, and that it is an example of circular argumentation : I believe it because I believe it...

A LOGICAL "NO" "NO" !!!

:D

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I GUESS IT IS THE LANGUAGE BARRIER
I NEVER changed directions I never said it was not wangdoodle believes
I said it is a given that that is what HE BELIEVES and he does not have to STATE he believes it every time he (or any of us) states what we believe!
Just as you state that atheism is not a religion. Religion is not a science it is a belief so why do you have to emphasis that is what you believe after people's posts?
STILL waiting for you to answer:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

I said it is a given that that is what he believes and he does not have to state he believes it every time he (or any of us) states what we believe!

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I disagree. Until there is objective supporting evidence for "God" to exist and be the "Creator", everything in Christianity is just nothing more than a lot of hot air that people BELIEVE in.

You may believe from me whatever you want, but if you use what you believe as argument, you should add "I believe that" in front of that argument.

It's as simple as that, and has nothing to do with language, but with logic and clarity of argumentation.

:)

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