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Originally Posted by Credendovidis
You do not seem to understand the function of a moderator. A moderator makes sure everything on a board runs as per the rules. It does not provide him with heavenly insights. When he posts questions or replies here, he is just like you and me. Fr_Chuck is a human being, he is also AMHD moderator, but he is not the Pope !
Yeah, but I think the "administrator", the Head Moderator in Charge pretty much put you in your place when he called your messages "rubbish!" So for all your bluster, you have no say here.
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Non-religious people do not have to prove that God does not exist. They do not claim what is called "a positive".
Well, yes, they do. They claim that everything they see came to be on its own. Since we don't see anything that creates itself, they claim a positive which is disproved by the evidence.
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The real claim is one made by believers, and they can not provide any objective supporting evidence for their claim.
Certainly we can. We see that all creatures which exist are intelligently. Logically speaking, this is impossible unless an Intelligence created them. If I find a watch on the ground, I don't ask, when did it create itself? I ask, who made it?
By the same token, when you want a car, you don't wait on it to create itself in your garage. You go out and buy one that has already been built by a car maker.
So, we believe in God because we see what He has created.
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Don't reverse the order of evidence obligation.
Oh my, have I broken a rule. What authority have I violated?
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Note that for me you do not have to prove anything
That is simply because you claim not to care. But you contradict yourself by your very passionate defense of what you believe. And then your insistence of our presenting proof, which we do and then you deny.
So, you ought to make up your mind what your really want before you write one of these messages.
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, but in that case accept whatever you state as being a claim, instead of being "the one and only truth" !
God is the Truth.
My claim is one that I can prove. Whether you accept the proof is your business.
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You BELIEVE that that can only be explained by (the wisdom of) God.
And you BELIEVE that that can be explained by your wisdom. But you are wrong and have yet to provide any positive proof of any of your claims.
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The point is that you can not prove that.
I have. But by your God given free will, you have denied the proof.
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So you BELIEVE , i.e. you CLAIM that. It is just your opinion !
Yes, but it is a belief, claim and opinion I can prove. Unlike yours, for which you have provided no solution as yet except denials of ours.
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I am a Secular Humanist, married for already for a "blessed" 39 years to a very active Roman Catholic - who is involved in pastoral work and religious children education. I even married in church, after a detailed explanation of my non-religious position to the priest. I did that out of respect for my than wife-to-be and her views. We never had an argument on religious issues, although we frequently discuss religious and her pastoral activities.
Congratulations! You're a lucky man:
When I met my girlfriend who is now my wife of 23 years, she was Catholic and I was atheist. At first, I resolved I would show her the error of her ways. But then a thought occurred to me, why should I take from the woman I love something which she loves and obviously comforts her? And since I firmly believed that God did not exist, what harm could it do for her to believe? We would both wind up in exactly the same place, the grave. Then the Scripture was proven true:
1 Cor 7 13 And if any woman hath a husband that believeth not, and he consent to dwell with her, let her not put away her husband. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: otherwise your children should be unclean; but now they are holy.
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Your problem is that you show little respect for any world view other than your own, and you show that position frequently in your postings.
Actually, I think that describes you. I'm not the atheist trying to rob believers of their faith with no evidence to support my arguments. If you are really an atheist, what do you care if we believe? If you are right, we are going to wind up in the same place, food for worms. But if we are right,. Is that what you're afraid of?
As for me, I treat with respect anyone who treats me with respect.
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There is no real objective supported evidence that these testimonies are TRUE.
Eyewitness testimony is accepted in every court in the world. Mulitple eyewitness testimonies supporting each other are considered invaluable in every court in the world.
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There is even doubt about the resurrection, about Jesus' existence, about the entire Christian claim.
Only with people like yourself who cast doubt on anything which you don't want to believe simply because you don't want to believe it.
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That is, if you look further than just BELIEF in all these claims.
I have.
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Your are showing with your own words that you are now word-playing here.
Nope. You are showing with your own words that you really have no ground to stand on. You're reaching, but there's nothing to grab hold of because you don't even know why you don't believe.
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Jesus was a person - at least I will accept that.
That's a start.
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There is no objective supported evidence that Jesus was the anointed one - a religious title and unproven CLAIM.
The same evidence that proves He was a person proves He was the Anointed One. The same people who witnessed His Life, also witnessed His miracles and heard the Voice of God proclaiming Him The Son.
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I clearly asked for objective supporting evidence.
All the evidence I have presented is objective. It is your attitude of rejection which is subjective. It is as your name says, Credendovidis. If you don't see it you don't believe it. That leaves very little to believe. According to that attitude, when you came into being, the world came into being. Since you never saw Caesar, he didn't exist. Since you didn't see Washington, he didn't exist. Pretty sad, actually.
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This is not. At best it is subjective based support for all the claims. Cultural habits and ties are no objective supporting evidence for any religious claims.
Why yes, they are. It is the footprint. Jesus came and taught. People learned these lessons and put them into practice. These people know precisely who was the originator of these lessons and point to Him.
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There you start again with your disrespect !
Moi? So you're not trying to disprove His existence? Let me reword it then, "Really, you seem quite interested in disproving His Divinity?"
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I do not try to disprove anything.
If that is true, its because you accept the fact that you can't.
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I merely ask you to either prove your religious claims with objective supported evidence, or accept that whatever you BELIEVE is BELIEF, and not the "one and only truth".
Well, that would be a lie wouldn't it? Why would I lie to myself?
I believe that God is Truth. I also believe my evidence is objective which supports my belief in Him. So, why should I allow you to coerce me into saying something which isn't true?
The problem, in my opinion, is that the existence of God and of people who can prove His existence bothers you. Because you know the consequences of not believing in the Being who created you.
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Because you and many like you tend to misuse (their own personal version of) religion to threaten the freedoms of non-religious people. History shows that religious people tend to force their personal believe onto others.
History proves that SOME religious people have done that. But more frequently, history has proven that ATHEISTS are both more violent, more cruel and more efficient at destroying entire nations of people for their beliefs.
History also proves that Christians have developed the caring, fair and just societies in this the history of the world.
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I care, because I support your and others need for freedom of religion, but note that many like you fail to extend that freedom to freedom from religion.
Really? Please show me where I or any Christian on this forum have curtailed your freedom not to believe in God. As I see it, the only thing to which we object is being insulted. Something which happens quite frequently on these forums when atheists find yourselves holding your tongue in your hands watching your arguments dissolve like castles of sand on the beach as the waves destroy them.
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If you focus on the US situation, recent history shows the influence of religion on worldly affairs (presidential elections for instance). Also non-believers living in the center of the biblebelt have huge problems finding a job. There clearly is a bias by religious people outside religious affairs for "their own", and that is undemocratic and unfair.
Again, you are proving that atheists don't even know how to follow simple rules. Is this thread about bias in government or bias in religion or bias in elections? If it is, please inform me and I'll continue the discussion. Otherwise stick to the subject at hand.
It is another distinctive of atheists on this forum that when they feel they are losing an argument, they CHANGE THE SUBJECT.
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Strange than, that every time I ask for that objective supported evidence I only get subjective support for a BELIEF. I wonder why that is. :)
Apparently you can't tell the difference. When you can prove that eyewitness testimony is considered subjective or if you can prove that eyewitness testimony is not allowed in court, let me know.
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NOT TRUE ! The word BELIEF means that it is a position for which there is no supporting evidence.
Oooooh, red? Getting passionate about something about which you don't claim to care?;)
Which dictionary are you using? This is what Webster says:
Be·lief Listen to the pronunciation of belief
Pronunciation:
\bə-ˈlēf\
Function:
Noun
Etymology:
Middle English beleave, probably alteration of Old English gelēafa, from ge-, associative prefix + lēafa; akin to Old English lȳfan — more at believe
Date:
12th century
1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
belief - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Take special note of number three which I highlighted for you.
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As a Secular Humanist I do not BELIEVE in myths and wild religious claims.
As a faithful Catholic, neither do I.
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I have no opinion for or against Jesus' existence,
Then what are you doing on this thread?
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though I accept that he as a human being can have existed.
Good.
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As to Jesus Christ : that is a religious claim, and has to be proven by those who agree with that position.
We have provided the evidence. If the evidence does not convince you, so be it. You have freedom of will and conscience, believe what you will.
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So far objective supporting evidence for the following never has materilized :
- (The Christian) God exists and is the Creator.
Sure it has. You just deny the evidence.
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- God is in fact the creator of the Bible, and the Bible is his word.
- Jesus is the son of that God.
- Jesus as son of God, together with the Holy Spirit, is part of God (the Trinity).
Again, the tactic is clear. Since you can't hold up your argument on one theme, you muddy the waters by injecting many themes which weren't being discussed. Don't you think that before we go into whether God inspired the Bible, you must first accept the premise that God exists?
That just seems basic logic to me. So if that logic makes sense to you, then your tactic is clear, you are simply introducing "straw men" in order to draw attention from the fact that you have lost this argument.
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So I suggest you do your homework and prove these 4 points to me and all other non-religious people. No problem if you can't or don't. I (we) all know that you BELIEVE that all !
I'd love to go into detail on any of those subjects. However, this thread is about "where did His body go?"
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All subjective claims. None of that even smells like anything objective.
Perhaps, but at least I tried to prove my claims.
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Conclusion : you simply BELIEVE that. Fine with me. But than whatever you BELIEVE is just BELIEF, and far from the "one and only truth" !
That's called "projection".
Projection
Projection is attributing your own repressed thoughts to someone else.
Changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/projection.htm - 22k -
First study the meaning of the word "believe". Apparently, you go around believing things that don't make sense. But I don't. First, I expect things to be proven to me. Once they are proven to me, then I believe them.
So, although you expect your "beliefs" to be unproven. I am not like you.
Sincerely,
De Maria
