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Originally Posted by sassyT

who created evolution? where did it begin?

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Why do you think it has to be created?

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

Why do you think it has to be created?

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Well I would think if you are going to take a "scientific" approach to explaining origins one would need to apply all laws of science. According to science there has to be a beginning so if the universe was not created by someone did it just appeared and create itself?

The Universe could not have just appeared and created itself because that is contrary to the First Law of Thermodynamics that says energy is not being created or destroyed. It is called the "Law of Conservation." Energy is being directed, used, etc. but not created or destroyed.
So before we stand on the bank of the mythical little pond to discuss man's origins,
What is the origin of the matter? What are the origins of the Universe?

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Originally Posted by sassyT

Well i would think if you are going to take a "scientific" approach to explaining origins one would need to apply all laws of science. According to science there has to be a beggining so if the universe was not created by someone did it just appeared and create itself?

The Universe could not have just appeared and created itself because that is contrary to the First Law of Thermodynamics that says energy is not being created or destroyed. It is called the "Law of Conservation." Energy is being directed, used, etc. but not created or destroyed.
So before we stand on the bank of the mythical little pond to discuss man's origins,
what is the origin of the matter? what are the origins of the Universe?

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The most intellectually honest answer to who or what created the universe is, 'I don't know'. Postulating a supreme being gets us nowhere, because we now have to answer where this supreme being came from. This is an even bigger problem than we started with. Occam's Razor prevails here.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

The most intellectually honest answer to who or what created the universe is, 'I don't know'. Postulating a supreme being gets us nowhere, because we now have to answer where this supreme being came from. This is an even bigger problem than we started out with. Occam's Razor prevails here.

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Actually a supreme being who created everything is the most intellegent answer there is. It is evident in the obvious design and mechanism of the universe that something or someone intelligent created this universe.

I liken it to if a man was able to go to Jupitor and he found, when he landed on the planet, a machine that resembles a car but nothing like we have ever seen on earth. It has a tires and steering wheel to direct it, it has seats doors, an engine etc. Basically the machine appears to be for mobility.
So if this man finds this machine and concludes that it just appeared on the planet and evolved over time, would that be a logical conclution?

I think it would be more logical to conclude that there must be some kind of intelligent life on the planet because of the obvious purposeful design and machinery.
Now compared to a car, the Universe desplays a much more grand and purposeful design of elements and inticate machinery. So why would anyone conclude that there is no intellegent designer behind it? It seems very unreasonable to me.

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Originally Posted by sassyT

Actually a supreme being who created everthing is the most intellegent answer there is. It is evident in the obvious design and mechanism of the universe that something or someone intelligent created this universe.

i liken it to if a man was able to go to Jupitor and he found, when he landed on the planet, a machine that resembles a car but nothing like we have ever seen on earth. It has a tires and steering wheel to direct it, it has seats doors, an engine etc. Basically the machine appears to be for mobility.
So if this man finds this machine and concludes that it just appeared on the planet and evolved over time, would that be a logical conclution?

I think it would be more logical to conclude that there must be some kind of inteligent life on the planet because of the obvious purposeful design and machinery.
Now compared to a car, the Universe desplays a much more grand and purposeful design of elements and inticate machinery. So why would anyone conclude that there is no intellegent designer behind it? it seems very unreasonable to me.

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William Paley's "Watchmaker' argument. I'm very familiar with it. Still doesn't explain what created the creator though. Such a designer would have to be many orders of magnitude more complex than that which it designed. So you're STILL left with an even bigger question than the one you think you've answered, sorry to say.

The problem with the watchmaker argument is that the watch doesn't self replicate and doesn't change over time with each replication. If life were static like the watch then it would mean something but since life is ever changing comparing life to a watch is an argument that has no logic behind it. I would think someone who studied biology would know the blindingly obvious flaw in that argument

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Originally Posted by sassyT

Now compared to a car, the Universe desplays a much more grand and purposeful design of elements and inticate machinery.

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Where? Just curious... All I see in the universe is chaos and hostility.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

William Paley's "Watchmaker' argument. I'm very familiar with it. Still doesn't explain what created the creator though. .

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It make sense that thing.. lol You can't deny that it is logical. How can you say such a complex universe just appeared from no where and evolved. All the intricasies of how things work. The earth perfectly possitioned orbiting around the sun all the way down down to how a small plant converts carbon dioxide into oxygen or how blood carries nutrients from food to animal cell. All the mechanisms that make life possible, Doesn't that all seem like intelligent to you? I think it takes a lot more FAITH to believe all we see just appeared from no where and perfectly and inteligently aligned itself. My faith is not that strong that I am willing to forgo logic.

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Such a creator would have to be many orders of magnitude more complex than that which it created. So you're STILL left with a bigger question than the one you think you've answered, sorry to say

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God is has greater magnitude than his creation. I don't see why that is a problem. I think it is a given that a creator of anything is going to be more complex and of greater magnitude than his creation so I don't understand what point you are trying to make here.
What bigger question is left unanswered. God's origin? Well, He has no beginning and no end. Of course that is too hard for you to wrap around your human head because all you know of this life is 18-70years you have experienced on this earth where time is the main a factor however God lives beyond time, you have to think outside the box to even begin to comprehend it.

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Originally Posted by sassyT

It make sense that thing..lol You can't deny that it is logical. How can you say such a complex universe just appeared from no where and evolved. All the intricasies of how things work. the earth perfectly possitioned orbiting around the sun all the way down down to how a small plant converts carbon dioxide into oxygen or how blood carries nutrients from food to animal cell. All the mechanisms that make life possible, Doesnt that all seem like intelligent to you? I think it takes a lot more FAITH to believe all we see just appeared from no where and perfectly and inteligently aligned itself. My faith is not that strong that i am willing to forgo logic.




God is has greater magnitude than his creation. I dont see why that is a problem. I think it is a given that a creator of anything is going to be more complex and of greater magnitude than his creation so i dont understand what point you are trying to make here.
What bigger question is left unanswered. God's origin? Well, He has no beginning and no end. ofcourse that is too hard for you to wrap around your human head because all you know of this life is 18-70years you have experienced on this earth where time is the main a factor however God lives beyond time, you have to think outside the box to even begin to comprehend it.

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If you can accept a creator that has no beginning and no end, then why can't you accept that the universe has no beginning and no end, and just skip out the creator?

Why is it illogical for the universe to have no creator, but perfectly logical for the creator to have no creator?
Surely what applies to one applies to the other?

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

Where? Just curious... All I see in the universe is chaos and hostility.

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Yes chaos and hostility created by man, but what does that have to do with nature of the Universe?
You ask where? Every where you look is where! The plants trees animals...
Let look at just your body. Right now as you sit at your computer gallons of blood being pumped in your body by an organ known as a heart. In your blood is millions of white blood cells that are fighting infection while your red blood cells are delivering oxygen from the lungs your to body tissues via the blood. Your stomach is digesting the food you ate breaking it down into tiny particles that are small enough to enter the blood stream to deliver nutrients to body cells that would otherwise die without it. Your kidneys are maintaining the homeostatic balance of bodily fluids by filtering and secreting metabolites while your liver detoxifying your body and creating bile to aid the digestive process. Need I go on? I think you get the point here. There is, definitely purposeful design of elements and inticate machinery in this universe

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Originally Posted by sassyT

Yes chaos and hostility created by man, but what does that have to do with nature of the Universe?
You ask where? every where you look is where! The plants trees animals...
Let look at just your body. right now as you sit at your computer gallons of blood being pumped in your body by an organ known as a heart. In your blood is millions of white blood cells that are fighting infection while your red blood cells are delivering oxygen from the lungs your to body tissues via the blood. Your stomach is digesting the food you ate breaking it down into tiny particles that are small enough to enter the blood stream to deliver nutrients to body cells that would otherwise die without it. Your kidneys are maintaining the homeostatic balance of bodily fluids by filtering and secreting metabolites while your liver detoxifying your body and creating bile to aid the digestive process. Need i go on? I think you get the point here. There is, definately purposeful design of elements and inticate machinery in this universe

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Well I mean these weren't here when the universe was created. The chaos and hostility I'm referring to was not created by man. There is only one place in the billions of light years of space that we know of where we have found that these "intricate machines" exist. Why is the rest of it so barren, chaotic and hostile? That's not good design.

Saying the earth is perfect for life is like saying a wall is perfect for holding water. Is there life on earth? Sure. Can you get a wall to hold water? Sure. You are but a single drop of water clinging to the side of the wall forgetting all of the drops that came before you and claiming that because you are holding on, a wall is a perfect container for you. If earth was perfect all that came before you would still be here. It's not though, we cling to life and have to fight for it everyday.

[QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

If you can accept a creator that has no beginning and no end, then why can't you accept that the universe has no beginning and no end, and just skip out the creator?

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Whether the universe has a beginning and an end or not, it still warrents an intelligent designer regardless. If is possible that the creater and the universe have always existed. But unfortunately for you can not use that as explanation because you would be going outside of science and delving into the supernatural. Science tells us that there is a beginning and an end.

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Why is it illogical for the universe to have no creator, but perfectly logical for the creator to have no creator?
Surely what applies to one applies to the other?

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No, because what we are battle here are two sides here. "science" vs supernaturalism.
It is not logical (based on "science" and general human knowledge) that the creator has no beginning and no end. It is supernatural.

Just a warning,

Remember merely state YOUR beliefs, or feelings, or rants. No more name calling, and if there is, don't respond with the same, report it.
Several name calling reports ( and responses to them have been deleted)

I don't want to have to close another post but will not let these things go down hill.

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Originally Posted by sassyT

No, because what we are battle here are two sides here. "science" vs supernaturalism.
It is not logical (based on "science" and general human knowledge) that the creator has no beginning and no end. It is supernatural.

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If you think that the supernatural is allowed, why is the universe not supernatural itself, without need for a creator?

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

Well I mean these weren't here when the universe was created. The chaos and hostility i'm referring to was not created by man. There is only one place in the billions of lightyears of space that we know of where we have found that these "intricate machines" exist. Why is the rest of it so barren, chaotic and hostile? That's not good design.

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Barren chaotic and hostile to who?
It is still design, whether you think it is not "good" or not, is purely subjective on your part.

The Bible definitely alludes to a chaotic void and barren place when God began to create life. The bible also says the universe is in gradual degradation and is dying like everything else. So your point dies right there.

God exists... period. This is not faith... not belief... it is fact. The real question is "what is your definition of God?"

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Originally Posted by sassyT

The Bible definately alludes to a chaotic void and barren place when God began to create life. The bible also says the universe is in gradual degredation and is dying like everything else. so your point dies right there.

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It does? Lol Ive never read that. But hey, the Bible "alludes" to a lot

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Science tells us that there is a beginning and an end.

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Umm... no. Human logic tells us there is a beginning and an end which is why you insert all powerful creator to fill in the gaps where you don't understand. Answers based on observation and experimentation (Science) doesn't depend on a beginning or an end, it often finds these things but isn't required. For things like energy we found that it can't be created or destroyed so energy has no beginning and no end.

You admit though that belief in a god is illogical so why would you believe in something that is illogical? You don't believe in all things illogical, do you? Why not just admit like the rest of us and say you don't know how the universe was formed or if it was formed and instead of saying god did it. Why not help look for answers?

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Originally Posted by sassyT

Science tells us that there is a beginning and an end.

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I don't agree with you here. It tells us that there is a beginning and an end to our universe. It does not tell us what was before our universe. Most scientists a few years ago would have said that there was nothing before the big bang, but I believe that is becoming a less solidly held viewpoint, we certainly have no evidence either way.