Thanks for your reply, Allheart, but I'm not sure you've quite answered my question. Obviously I understand you either accept Jesus or not (being "with me"), but "you are against me"; does that equate to "you are my enemy" or "you aren't saved"?

I understand your point about the two-fold question, but if you are not with Jesus, does that mean you are seen by him or by Christians as the enemy, or just unsaved? Are those one in the same? Is that passage even directed at non-Christians (short of, believe in me and you are saved)? Does it mean, "believe in me or else"?

Miss Jilly with all the questions :)

Just kidding sweetheart.

No, it is directed at all of us. You, me, him, her. It can be interpreted 50,000 ways.
I remember being taught that passage - or at least hearing that passage. I will ask a priest but from what I remember, it's more If we do not follow his word, "love one another, turn the other cheek....all the things He wants us to do, in his eyes, then we are choosing to be against him. But no, not the enemy. "Wonderful" people will try and say that, but I don't think so. No. Not at all.

And in no way Does Our Father view us as the enemy nor those who believe in Christ. But I can only speak for me, the "enemy" are those purposley preveting God's loving word from being heard. Evil.

I had the most loving conversation - a day - last week - kind of sounds like a bar joke :)

There was a retired priest, a young Jewish boy 19 or 20, who if I could just bottle up his dedication to his religion and myself. We had the most loving and caring converstation. I will always consider it a gift. There was love and understanding as our common denominator, and that my dear Jillian, I think is what God will see.

And then there was this other man who I bonded with as well. Who thought he would give my young Jewish friend a run for his money. Mommy Allheart pulled him to the side and said, I know many are asking the fine young man a lot of questions about his faith, and I don't think he minds if you do as well, but you are not going to put him on the defensive are you?? He said no, and didn't.
( I was at a facility ). But boy that man was ready to pumble him with questions and statements about Jesus.

There are unkind people in this world Jillian - God forgive me for saying that - perhaps they are not well, and if you see them coming your way... run like... (oooooops )

Hugs

Thanks, Allheart. :)

I really just wanted clarification on the "enemy" standpont; as I said I've seen people use that particular passage in a way that conveys "enemy" status to non-Christians. I'm glad to hear that at least one person doesn't think I'm the enemy! :)

For the Love of God - No - Not how I was taught.

The enemy as I was taught - was Evil - Satan.

Not you. You my friend, are a child of God - just like the rest of us.

And guess how I think God feels about those who make you feel the enemy.

Now that is not to say that God - does want you to turn to Him, because He loves you, and you are His Child.

But I do respect all faiths.

( If you could have seen this young Jewish boy ). I thought they stop making them like that. I love him. Hubby met him too.

Amazing young man.

So, no, God does not view you as the enemy at all! And if and when someone dares to say those hateful words to you, just really think about it...

You want your children to follow all that you taught them, but something's they will forget or decide to do differently, are they your enemy?

That's why I wondered - the message Christians claim that god and Jesus puts out there is one of loving everyone; it seems contradictory to proclaim love and call one an enemy...

Hi
Now this is a tricky one, there are many people who say as you have done " seeing is believing" now this is the whole point to religion, you won't see him but you might very well feel him. Let me give you an example: at the moment we have dreadful winds, gales in fact we cannot see the wind but we know that it is there because we can feel it, so even though it is invisible we know that it exists.

God or the good guy as I like to refer to him as,is all around us guiding us through daily life the fact that we may go through each day effortless shows us that he has helped us through out the day you will not know this because you cannot see him never the less he has been with you. The days where you think blow it I can't be bothered to get up and go to work or let them do it themselves or your simply having a bad day is the bad guy distracting you, where there's good there has to be bad, if you follow what I mean.
Haven't you ever found yourself really desperate and uttered those words dear god please help me not really knowing why but we all do it then sometime later realize that the problem was sorted, well that's the good guy watching out for you.

Do you honestly believe that this world in all it's beauty just appeared, tomorrow go out side look around I mean really look at the trees and the flowers that return faithfully every year despite the battering we give them and think of the tiny dot of a seed that huge oak trees come , no we didn't just happen and I donot believe when we die it is the end, maybe here on earth but this life is just a learning curve for the next, we are not meant to understand it our brain is not advance enough, but that's a whole new topic

Sorry 0rphan, but your wind analogy doesn't hold up. Because wind can be measured. And there is a direct cause and effect. The wind blows and you see flags wave, tree limbs flutter, etc.

And I know what you are going to say, that the same things hold true for God, because you can see the results of his guidance in people's actions. But that still doesn't hold true because there are other explanations for people's actions. The direct relation that exists between wind and tree limbs doesn't lend itself to another explanation.

The big problem I have with what you said, is if there is that "good guy" guiding us, then why is there so much bad stuff? Why is a Nizmary Brown allowed to die? Why is a George Bush allowed to start a war? Why is a Jeffrey Dahmler or Ted Bundy allowed to do their evil? I can't accept the "good guy" that you believe in allowing all that to happen. And, frankly, I have never asked god for help and then realized my problems were resolved.

No, I don't believe the world just appeared. I do believe that some intelligent force setup the physical laws by which this universe is governed. But do I believe that intelligence is sitting somewhere watching over us, guiding things, no way. If you want to believe it and draw comfort from it, I feel happy for you. But I see too much circumstantial evicdence to the contrary.

Okay, seeing is believing, therefore you won't believe in God because you haven't seen him.

Question : Have you ever seen a cancerous tumor? Have you ever seen a Whale? Have you ever seen a virus? No? Do these things exist?

That's all I'm going to say.

Hi Scott,

I understand your feelings about "why is there so much bad stuff?" All I can say is, God is sovereign. Reading through the bible you will find that not all the "Characters" are good. God uses those people to his own end. It's beyond us to understand. Bad stuff serves a purpose. What we perceive to be bad can have a profound effect on us down the line. It was "bad" but something good can come from it. We have to learn and learning is not always easy. Nowhere does it say believe and life will be good and easy. To the contrary. This life, life on earth is not the reward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Okay, seeing is believing, therefore you won't believe in God because you haven't seen him.

Question : Have you ever seen a cancerous tumor? Have you ever seen a Whale? Have you ever seen a virus? No? Do these things exist?

That's all I'm going to say.

---

If someone says "yes" does that ruin your case?

I have personally seen a cancerous tumor. I have personally seen a whale. I have personally seen undoctored film and photographic evidence of a virus. There is tangible proof for all the things you suggest. Maybe I have not personally laid my hands upon a petri dish containing a virus, but that doesn't mean there isn't tangible, physical evidence proving it's existence.

Is there undoctored film and/or photographic evidence of god? No, there's not. That's why theists have "faith" - they believe in something which has no tangible evidence. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, but it is impossible to "prove" god. It is equally impossible to "disprove" god, as there will still be theists who claim the evidence is lying, doctored, or sent from satan or whatever.

You have faith - others don't. I don't see what the big deal is.

Okay, maybe my examples weren't that good, but I had a limited amount of time. There are other things that we cannot see but have been proven to exist. Dinosaurs (yes, I know, you've seen their bones) for example. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

No, I've never physically seen God, yes, I do believe. Why? Because I've experienced things in my life that have no explanation other than the presence of a higher being. Miracles that shouldn't have occurred but did.

I can't tell anyone to believe, and I'm not going to preach to anyone that they have to believe. I do, and that's good enough for me.

I'm just saying that God isn't something you can see, you have to feel him, that's the way it is.

Hi Scott
I didn't say I knew all the answers or if in fact my theory was the correct one I simply offered a written view in answer to the original question "SEEING IS BELIEVING" it is purely my own opinion .
The tree analogy was a simple one nothing to do with measuring this or that but simply to demonstrate invisibility.
The badness that is happening not only on our doorsteps but world wide is mainly caused by mankind himself it's a lesson we still haven't learned despite the vast loss of lives and yet we still persist in -bloody wars- WE ARE DOING IT TO OURSELVES- why should the good guy interviene it's not like we haven't had enough chances now is it but still we continue with bigger and better weapons.
Personal loss is a different story and I would prefer not to go into this right now as I've recently lost my dear mum and brother only to say that I have more reason than most to ask that question, it could be medical, an accident or alike but in all events it will be valid and there will be a reason no matter how much we don't want to hear it .
You are an extremely lucky person never to have asked for help in your life , you also give a contradictory argument, on the one hand your saying "YOU DO BELIEVE THAT AN INTELLIGENT FORCE SET UP THE LAWS TO THE LAND" but then you add that"YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT THIS INTELLIGENT FORCE IS GUIDING US" your words not mine.

So if we go along with your theory where did this force come from!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altenweg

I'm just saying that God isn't something you can see, you have to feel him, that's the way it is.

---

Well why didn't you just say that! :D

You have to have faith. But if more people would be satisfied with that, rather then trying to prove one another wrong, this would be a much, much less interesting board! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jillianleab

Well why didn't you just say that! :D

You have to have faith. But if more people would be satisfied with that, rather then trying to prove one another wrong, this would be a much, much less interesting board! :)

---

So true. That's just it, I don't feel the need to prove anyone wrong, believe or don't, it's okay with me. I believe, of course I'm one of the oddest believers you'll ever meet.

I don't go to church (I gave it up for lent :) ) because I don't believe in one man's right (the pastor) to preach his version of the lords word. I don't believe in supporting a church, what for, so they can get oak pews and expensive stained glass windows? I'd rather give my money to people who need it, directly.

I pray to God in my home, I talk to my children about God, I don't believe in "organized" religion, but I do believe in God. I've been told by other people that believing isn't enough, that if I don't go to church every Sunday then I'm going to he*l, well these same people cheat on their spouses, are cruel to others, and think that all they have to do is go to Church on Sunday and ask for forgiveness and then everything will be okay.

I live my life differently and they don't like it. Guess I'll have to wait and see who makes it to heaven and who doesn't, but if I'm going down I'm sure a few of them will be there to keep me company.

Not all people who believe in God are good, and not all that don't believe are bad, it's not that cut and dry. Is it?:confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Not all people who believe in God are good, and not all that don't believe are bad, it's not that cut and dry. Is it?:confused:

---

Nope, it's not cut and dry at all. There are good apples and bad apples; and unfortunately, sometimes a few bad apples ruin the whole bunch in the eyes of someone on the other side.

Very true. Believing in God doesn't automatically make you good. As long as you are a good person, kind, caring, helpful to others, what does it matter what you believe in?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Smoked

I understand your feelings about "why is there so much bad stuff?" All I can say is, God is sovereign. Reading through the bible you will find that not all the "Characters" are good. God uses those people to his own end. It's beyond us to understand. Bad stuff serves a purpose. What we perceive to be bad can have a profound effect on us down the line. It was "bad" but something good can come from it. We have to learn and learning is not always easy. Nowhere does it say believe and life will be good and easy. To the contrary. This life, life on earth is not the reward.

---

The problem with all that is it is what you BELIEVE! You are entitled to those beliefs and I am happy they give you comfort. But the only thing behind your beliefs is your faith in the Bible. I don't have those beliefs because I can't see any concrete proof to support them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 0rphan

i didn't say i knew all the answers or if infact my theory was the correct one i simply offered a written view in answer to the original question "SEEING IS BELIEVING" it is purely my own opinion .
The tree analogy was a simple one nothing to do with measuring this or that but simply to demonstrate invisibility.
The badness that is happening not only on our doorsteps but world wide is mainly caused by mankind himself it's a lesson we still haven't learned dispite the vast loss of lives and yet we still persist in -bloody wars- WE ARE DOING IT TO OURSELVES- why should the good guy interviene it's not like we haven't had enough chances now is it but still we continue with bigger and better weapons.
Personal loss is a differant story and i would prefer not to go into this right now as i've recently lost my dear mum and brother only to say that i have more reason than most to ask that question, it could be medical, an accident or alike but in all events it will be valid and there will be a reason no matter how much we don't want to hear it .
You are an extremely lucky person never to have asked for help in your life , you also give a contradictory argument, on the one hand your saying "YOU DO BELIEVE THAT AN INTELLIGENT FORCE SET UP THE LAWS TO THE LAND" but then you add that"YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT THIS INTELLIGENT FORCE IS GUIDING US" your words not mine.

So if we go along with your theory where did this force come from!!

---

See that's the problem. If we are to believe in a benevolent God that guides us and answers our prayers how does one believe that that same God turns his back on his creations and lets them do such things to themselves. If you want to believe that there is some grand design that we can't understand, more power to you.

Now I never said I haven't asked for help. I said I haven't asked AND had anything happen to indicate my request had been answered.

And there is no contradiction. Its called Deism. Imagine a child setting up an oval model train track. He places a train on the track and starts it at a constant speed. He then sits back and watches it go round and round. The child has a situation with certain rules. He has then stepped away and lets things go according to the rulles he set up. It's a simplisitic analogy but its what I believe. I don't know where this force came from I don't pretend to. But I cannot believe that we are anything more an experiment by some intelligence we can't understand.

To take up this topic again, let's review what I asked in the first post here and the replies received :

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Donna Mae posted in topic "Is there a God?" :

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Donna Mae

"I believe it as soon as I see it. The problem with this statement is that when you see it (the Judgment), it will be to late to believe then".

---

Besides that that only MAY BE TRUE (as it is subject to the existence of that deity which many of you call "God", and if there is any judgment at all), there is another problem with this point of view.

YOU may believe in the existence of God, and in the powers and features attributed to God, but if you don't believe in the existence of (your and any other) God : what can one do?

Born into a Christian family I rejected the belief in (any) God(s) at the early age of 12 years.
I did not change any other habits and viewpoints. I have not murdered anyone, pay my dues where demanded from me, do a lot of unpaid volunteer activities, am a member of an international disaster team, still help old women to the other side of the street (if they want to go there), and am open to other views (i.e. also to Christianity). But I do not believe in the existence of God.

Donna may be correct. Or she may not be correct. It is the well known ´Wager of Pascal`.
Should I fake it than? Would an omniscient God not know I would fake it?

Most of you are all 100% convinced that there is that deity called God with all these characteristic described to it, while I am 100% (1) convinced that the deity called God does not exist, and that there is no ´Satan`, that there are no ´Heaven and Hell`, that there is no ´Final Judgment`, etc.

Besides that everyone should be allowed to believe whatever ´feels good`, you can not force a belief upon yourself or another. I do not see any reason neither to even try to change my position. But I respect whatever you believe in.

All I do not respect are the conclusions some of you draw from your religious beliefs. Like a 6000 years old earth, or the creation myth converted into anti evolution attack (a rather intolerant approach towards those of other views, while creationists demand full tolerance towards their own views (but most of the time fail to provide themselves that tolerance towards those of other views). Just as you are allowed in your belief(s), I am allowed in what I feel right just as well !
.
Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?

.. //.. Some unimportant lines removed.. //..
.

---

So far I have seen 6 pages of replies, but hardly anyone really answered the posed question. Mainly a debate developed on "who is right".
.
So I repeat once more part of my initial question and request replies to that question :
.
YOU may believe in the existence of God, and in the powers and features attributed to God, but if you don't believe in the existence of (this and/or any other) God : what can one do?
.
Donna may be correct. Or she may not be correct. It is the well known ´Wager of Pascal`.
Should I fake it than? Would an omniscient God not know I would fake it?
.
Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?
.
Please do not tell me to read the Bible. I did. But every logic cell in my brain tells me that the Bible makes no sense.
.
So what do I do now?
.
?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

YOU may believe in the existence of God, and in the powers and features attributed to God, but if you don't believe in the existence of (this and/or any other) God : what can one do?
.
Donna may be correct. Or she may not be correct. It is the well known ´Wager of Pascal`.
Should I fake it than? Would an omniscient God not know I would fake it?
.
Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?
.
Please do not tell me to read the Bible. I did.
So what do I do now?
.
? ? ?

---

No you shouldn't fake it because the All knowing Almighty will know what is in the hearts of all.
Even those who pretend to believe yet do not in reality will have their lies exposed one day.

Regarding your request from us believers to show proof as in tangible proof of the existence of the Almighty. Don't hold your breathe, it will not happen.
Because He will not be seen by any human in this lifetime to be able to get a sample of the Almighty to be looked into under a microscope or measured or heated or cooled or weighed or brought under any of the scientific methods of observation that you want to do.
This question you ask is not new, it has been on man's mind for centuries and every effort to bring the creation of this universe and beyond within the understanding of physical laws and the mystery of finding out the source of all creation has not been solved. The reason being that man is able to comprehend only a fraction of the universe and its works. We are able to measure only that which is at our reach and so much more is beyond our physical reach.

You do not believe in the Almighty but you wonder what you should do because you are not a believer? Or questions His existence?

I can only recommend one thing-
Look at all those great nations that have perished in days past. So many of them were great civilizations, there must have been believers and unbelievers even then. And even in all their glory they perished, their only mark is in the ruins of many historical sites.

The people that exist today will perish too, all of our time is limited on this earth, whether you believe in a life beyond death or not, we both agree that death is part of life. And your death or mine can come in an hour, tomorrow or in 10-20-30 years from now.
Until then you have this life to live in belief or disbelief, but once death seizes you, there is nothing you can do to stop death or come back into this life to change anything.

So live your life and if you like research into the history of humankind and their lives and how they lived and how it ended. Research into religion. Find all that is common in all religions and trace its source in history.

Know that the limited time we have on earth is all we have to make choices, once death knocks on your door then there will be no turning back.

Another thing I believe is that all of us has the chance to believe until our last breathe. Some of us find guidance and belief in a Higher power earlier than others. While others find faith, lose it, find it again or lose it forever.

Scientific research as an ongoing process, as far as I believe do not contradict what I believe, it just reinforces my beliefs. So I wouldn't dismiss looking into science as part of research into religion. Know that science only explains that which can be measured under the physical laws we humans have established.

Remember that not all things can be explained by science and that is where faith comes in.
Like my signature says
"All I have seen teaches me to trust the Creator for all I have not seen"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Credendovidis

So far I have seen 6 pages of replies, but hardly anyone really answered the posed question. Mainly a debate developed on "who is right".
.
So I repeat once more part of my initial question and request replies to that question :
.
YOU may believe in the existence of God, and in the powers and features attributed to God, but if you don't believe in the existence of (this and/or any other) God : what can one do?
.
Donna may be correct. Or she may not be correct. It is the well known ´Wager of Pascal`.
Should I fake it than? Would an omniscient God not know I would fake it?
.
Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?
.
Please do not tell me to read the Bible. I did. But every logic cell in my brain tells me that the Bible makes no sense.
.
So what do I do now?
.
? ? ?

---

Creden, I'm not sure what sort of answer you are hoping to get. I don't know why you think that one who does not believe in god, or believes in a different god than others must "do" anything. If you don't believe, or you believe your faith to be the correct one, why would you or should you have to "do" anything involving anyone else? Why would you want to or need to "pretend" and how would you know you were "pretending" to the "correct" deity? The people of faith will tell you the only thing you can "do" is to accept their religion. If you are unwilling to do that, you can't "do" anything.

So what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of god? How about carry on with your life as you see fit and forget about what other people tell you is going to happen to your eternal soul? Why does there have to be more than that?

There will always be belligerent people in this world - but remember, they come from both sides. There are people who say, "I KNOW there is a god" just the same as there are people who say, "I KNOW there is NOT a god". What difference does it make? Why is it so important to you people says "I BELIEVE ....."? I'm having a hard time understanding how someone professing they KNOW something such as the existence of god has any effect on your life whatsoever. Sure, if it start to mingle with your politics it makes a difference, but the lowly people here on AMHD saying "I KNOW..." this or that is inconsequential. We're all just a bunch of schmucks on the interwebs, and you stand a very, very low chance of changing someone's mind.

Sorry if I sound a bit b!tchy, but I'm having trouble understanding what sort of answer you want; it sounds more like you are trolling.