Ok, if that gives some form of comfort then you can believe that. Doesn't change the way I live. :)

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Ok, if that gives some form of comfort then you can believe that. Doesn't change the way I live. :)

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You have found a faith that works so good for you :)

The living without the belief in any god whatsover is working out great and I recommend it to others.

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Originally Posted by BMI

Can't beleive I missed the opening of this thread.

As always these discussions play out this way, so I too shall play along.

One argument as to the existence of God is actually quite simple to understand. If you visited Mars and happened upon a watch, fully functional, working parts, would you not logically conclude that something/someone was here before you? As Fr. Chuck mentioned, look around at the complexity of every living thing and tell me was this just a random mish mash of gases and matter formed? Everything has order, everything has a purpose, it is called intelligent deseign.

The only counter argument to the above mentioned is that if you were to place a million monkies in a room with typewriters they would eventually reproduce all of Shakespears plays. That, to me, is a more foolish idea than the existence of a God, logically speaking.

Seems as if non-beleivers place such faith in science and therefore man. If God truly wishes to remain hidden, do you think man could uncover this? Science, for all it worth, has not even begin to discover all the truths about Planet Earth, let alone the Universe. (Actually I urge all to watch the BBC program called Planet Earth, just for the fact it is wonderfully educational and well done, although it is applicable to this discussion).

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It's amazing how this world would rather believe in gas and chemicals causing a heart to beat or the waves to crash against a catrillion grains of sand or a life to form inside of a person and know just when to come out and when to breathe, than to believe that god was here before all of this and formed it according to his will.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

The living without the belief in any god whatsover is working out great and I recommend it to others.

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But it is esp the dying without God that makes the biggest difference.

To you it does, I agree.

I just find it strange that people think that christianity and theism is such a great leap of faith, there are just as many holes in evolution and big bang theory.

Agreed cal. That's not why I'm an atheist at all. I don't think anyone is an atheist because the big bang theory and evolution is their gospel.

True, I'm not saying that all atheists are irrational enough to see a theory such as the big bang as gospel without further evidence.
What really astounds me, is how people can turn to such irrational beliefs such as scientology (an evil alien overlord who took people in airliners with rocket engines to earth and blew them up at volcanoes, then brainwashing the spirits in cinemas, followed by the spirits clinging to people)
When there are more logical and rational alternatives.
No offense to any scientologists out there.

Scientology is a big scam/cult (offense to scientologists intended) but we see those stories as not much different than most bible stories.

See that's where the big problem for me is, because I can see plenty of rational and logical evidence and reasoning for both christianity/theism, and atheism.
I prefer to look at both sides and see the reasons for them, while many of both belief systems see it as one sided, despite both world views being pretty reasonable, if you just take the time to look at both sides exstensivly.

But I have - I was raised roman catholic and went to catholic school. Baptised, first communion, etc.
My life is just fine without all that.

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Originally Posted by cal823

i just find it strange that people think that christianity and theism is such a great leap of faith, there are just as many holes in evolution and big bang theory.

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Just to clear this up. Evolution and big bang theory have explained just about every piece of evidence thrown at them so far. They change to fit the evidence - which is what makes science so powerful. Evolution is used reliably to make predictions about how populations of organisms behave over time and these predictions go into our health service and make drugs which are effective. It also informs us how to use drugs to avoid the evolution of bacteria that we cannot defeat.

This is not what the topic is about but I wanted to make sure science was not misrepresented.

Hmmm... okay, have you explained the whole "how did the big bang create the universe without something before it" thing?
Because science tells us that everything has a beginning, and that's really one of my core reasons for believing that there has to be an eternal creator, that exists out of time, because otherwise you get into the loop of "thingo a was created by thingo b, but where did thingo b come from? it must have been created by thingo c, but where did thingo c come from?"
Sorry for getting a little of topic, just would like a rational explanation for that, and if I can get a rational explanation telling me an alternative to an eternal creator to start the big bang, and I might just revise my beliefs.

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Originally Posted by cal823

...and i might just revise my beliefs.

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Nah, you really wouldn't. :)

Atheists are fond of saying that what we creationists think about the universe is based on our early education (presuppositions). I contend that SOME scientists base their belief in evolution on their own suppositions. In spite of what some would have us to believe, there are many qualified scientists who believe in creation.

If there was enough logical evidence and reasoning presented to me, it would be irrational not to.

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Originally Posted by cal823

hmmm....okay, have you explained the whole "how did the big bang create the universe without something before it" thing?
Because science tells us that everything has a beginning, and thats really one of my core reasons for believing that there has to be an eternal creator, that exists out of time, because otherwise you get into the loop of "thingo a was created by thingo b, but where did thingo b come from? it must have been created by thingo c, but where did thingo c come from?"
sorry for getting a little of topic, just would like a rational explanation for that, and if i can get a rational explanation telling me an alternative to an eternal creator to start the big bang, and i might just revise my beliefs.

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No. The big bang theory does not describe what caused the expansion, it doesn't claim to, it doesn't have to. It only describes what happened after t=0. Perhaps this is a problem with it for you, but big bang theory, in what it claims to explain, does not have holes. We observe it, we make predictions with it, it works.

There are many hypotheses about where the big bang came from - that's for another topic if you want to start it in astronomy or physics. But I would appreciate it if you waited a few days - I have a very busy few days ahead.

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Originally Posted by Capuchin

No. The big bang theory does not describe what caused the expansion, it doesn't claim to, it doesn't have to. It only describes what happened after t=0. Perhaps this is a problem with it for you, but big bang theory, in what it claims to explain, does not have holes. We observe it, we make predictions with it, it works.

There are many hypotheses about where the big bang came from - that's for another topic if you want to start it in astronomy or physics. But I would appreciate it if you waited a few days - I have a very busy few days ahead.

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The·o·ry (thē'ə-rē, thîr'ē)
n. pl. -ries.

-An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.
-A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.


Exactly my point. You can only hypothesize, make assumptions, theories, make conjectures, guess and speculate but the bottom line is, it is not fact and the fact that you believe it despite solid evidence means you have faith in evolution and the big bang.

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Originally Posted by sassyT

it is not fact and the fact that you believe it despite solid evidence

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Which solid evidence is that?

Also you may want to read this:

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"In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behavior are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and the theory of general relativity.

In common usage, the word theory is often used to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. This usage of theory leads to the common incorrect statements. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them."

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