Originally Posted by Tj3
But not within the context of what we are discussing which is communication with the dead. Absolutely nowhere is any differentiation made regarding communicating with one type of spirit versus another. It is a flat out prohibition. Also, scripture in context is clear that the war between good and evil spirits is between the holy and fallen angels - these versus are not speaking about the spirits of the dead.
That is not correct. What we are discussing is communication with spirit in general. Since there is no "death", except in the sense that the physical body loses its abililty to remain animated, we thus move to the spirit that one transforms to after physical passing. What you are interpreting as a "prohibition" has to be allowed under JOHN 14:12 (KJV) because Jesus did it. As to holy and fallen angels, they are both spirits but spirits live in Heaven, the Afterlife, the Hereafter or the spirit world where there are different levels, one is commonly called "Hell" for the fallen angels. There is communication with those in spirit (except for those in "Hell" but for those who may do Black Magic, etc. who knows who they may communicate with? That is what is not allowed by God.) But there is communication with good and benevolent spirits and even science has discovered that fact. The Virgin Mary, for example, has appeared (in Spirit) to mankind in Egypt and other places and has even been photographed. It showed her as a white spiritual outline on top of a Coptic Church in Cairo, Egypt. The photograph, it is said, was authenticated by the Catholic Church. She has appeared there as well as many other places. She comes to communicate with us and we speak to her (a Spirit). She also appeared to the children of Portugal as many Christians across the world should know.
I addressed that as part of the overall statement. Aas for you calling it a contradiction, I cannot imagine how you could read it on context and come to that conclusion or even conclude that it had anything to do with the topic at hand. First, Jesus in the flesh as man never spoke to the dead.
But of course He did. He was in the flesh when He raised Lazarus and others, according to Biblical teachings and I have already spoken to that in my past response. But here is Scripture to back me up. Jesus was talking to His disciples, while very much in the flesh. "These things said He: and after that He saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said His disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." -- JOHN 11:11-14 (KJV). What we have here, most plainly, is Jesus speaking to His disciples about Lazarus while Jesus is still in the flesh. But after Jesus learns that Lazarus has died, He says the following (while STILL very much in the flesh).
"And when He thus had spoken, He cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth." -- JOHN 11:43 (KJV). There Jesus is speaking very much in the flesh. What would make you think He was not in the flesh when He did this? All know and understand that He spoke these things and did these things (recalling Lazarus' spirit back to his body) while still in the flesh. However, I believe you have very different opinions about what the Bible is actually saying and want to say them to try to save your arguments. However, this is what Scripture says and I shall just have to keep repeating these things as long as you wish to discuss this matter as nothing can change.
If you disagree, find me any such context. He communication with those previously deceased is only as God.
Incorrect Again. Read the passage just above in reference to Lazarus and for the umpteenth time, KNOW and UNDERSTAND that Jesus was ALIVE (though He still is) but He was incarnate when He spoke and did these things. I will repeat this time and again from now on, I have no problem with that except that it is basically repetition and bandwidth is taken in the process.
John 14:12 speaks about the works that Jesus did while on earth as a man, and was speaking to men.
And the works that Jesus did while on Earth as a man and speaking to men was what He said we could also do as He was going to The Father (in JOHN 14:12 (KJV)). He spoke to Lazarus' spirit to raise Him from the dead and He also spoke at a distance to the spirit of the son of a commander of soldiers whose son was dying and he was made well. This was done not after Jesus' crucifixion but when He was very much incarnate. Why you do not seem to understand that I do not know.
Further, as shown previously, we are told specifically was the empowerment of the Holy Spirit is for. Let me repeat:
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Acts 1:8
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
NKJV
It is to be witnesses of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore any spirit which causes you to have "power" which does not move you in concert with the gospel of Christ as given in scripture is not from God.
As I have said before, I have no problem with that as there are good spirits and bad ones that can influence one's way of thinking and one must know, unequivocally, where those spirits are coming from in order to differentiate between the two and be empowered by God.
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If you believe that John 14:12 has anything to do with communication with the dead then show us that in context.
