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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

Well, OK then, there you go. Question answered. Phew!! I sure am glad that's over.

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YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY YYYY!!

Is it time for supper yet? What's to eat?

First you are assuming that there is such thing as a mortal sin, thus telling me you must be catholic, since they are the only ones that have motal and non mortal sins, even the Orthodox which split with the Catholics in the 1100's, do not use mortal sin concept.

In general the teachings are once you have accepted Christ and made a committed to him in your heart, your salvation is set.
Also since there are only a few mortal sins, even if you are catholic, a person raised properly would not commit one of those anyway. Even 3/4 of all of our prisons no one there has committed a mortal sin.

And of course a mother who is truly christian would not consider harm to her children

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No. You didn't answer my question. Killing a child is a noble act?

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If this guarantees the child's eternal soul, and takes away any chance of suffering, crying, and teeth gnashing for ever and ever, until the end of time, yes. How much plainer can I be?

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Um, we've told you what we think and believe. Is this question up to five pages yet?

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Well then I must I applogize to you. You've wasted your time for nothing. I'm not interested in what you think, or your opinions. I'm interested in the logic that should be used to prevent a believer in heaven and hell from killing a loved one to ensure their place with God.

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Apparently you want an answer that no one has lucked onto yet.

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Only one person has even come close to actually providing a legitimate answer. The rest of you seem more content to put words in my mouth, twist the subject around, or spout personal opinions on the matter, which I did not ask for.

You have a rule book for answering?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You have a rule book for answering?

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Love it... Wish I could rate you on this one.

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Originally Posted by mafiaangel180

You keep using the word logic. If religion is about believing in an unseen anything, than that really isn't logical to begin with is it? So we are dealing with a woman's personal belief. There's no real logic in that. Heaven and hell aren't tangible.

Plus this woman only assumes that her children are good little kiddies. But how does she know that little Johnny doesn't play doctor with his sister? The woman is in fault because she claims to know the religious minds of her own children.


If all of this was tangible, and not based off of a subjective belief. She might have a case. But then again...if she claims to be a good Christian woman, she would know that humans have free will. And she is taking that away from her children by killing them. She isn't just committing a religious sin. She is breaking a law of man.

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While I was cooking dinner I was thinking basically the same things.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

If this guarantees the child's eternal soul, and takes away any chance of suffering, crying, and teeth gnashing for ever and ever, until the end of time, yes. How much plainer can I be?

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It doesn't necessarily guarantee anything, as mafiaangel said, what if the child doesn't have the faith and doesn't want to disappoint the mother? Also at what age do you decide they would have to be killed?

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

...... the logic that should be used to prevent a believer in heaven and hell from killing a loved one to ensure their place with God.

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A. sanctity of life
B. Faith by praying God's will for their life rather than playing God yourself
C. Not playing God because you believe God gave your kids a purpose in this life

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Only one person has even come close to actually providing a legitimate answer. The rest of you seem more content to put words in my mouth, twist the subject around, or spout personal opinions on the matter, which I did not ask for.

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I am not sure what it is you think we aren't answering or what words we are 'putting in your mouth'

Look... I thought I asked a very simple, reasonable, and legitimate question.

It seems to me given these two possibilities when we die... a). Eternal bliss, and b). Eternal suffering, that any means should justify the end. So what logical reason would a mother have NOT to send her child to heaven immediately and eliminate ANY chance this child will suffer eternally?

However, I do sincerely regret posting the question. I should've realized no one would make a reasonable attempt at answering it. Those who didn't have a good answer could've said, "Gee, I don't know", or, "Maybe God would take it out on the kid", or "You can't know the kid's deserving of heaven yet" (the ONLY legitimate answer to appear so far).

But most Christians will only answer questions to the point where they back themselves into a corner. Then comes some variation of the inevitable:

"Well, God works in mysterious ways. Your question has been answered! Why are you still bothering me with this?!


I can appreciate FR_Chuck's attempted answer, but it leaves the same problem. There is still the chance the child will stray and wind up in hell. It can be reduced to a very basic math problem that any 6th grader could understand...

Even a .0000000001% chance is a completely unacceptable risk when dealing with burning and suffering for an infinite quanity of time! Therefore, if you can eliminate ANY chance, you should clearly do so.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Suppose a Christian mother is very religious. She firmly believes in heaven and hell and the fate of the eternal soul. She has two children ages 7 and 5 who are very good Christian kids. She has every reason to think that if they were to die tomorrow, God would certainly accept them into heaven.

But as we know, kids grow up and become influenced by the world. If they both live to be 90, there is always the very real chance that one of them will commit a mortal sin at some point in their lives. So here's my question:

Can you provide a reason why this mother shouldn't kill her two kids now and lock in their eternal fate? I mean, the difference between spending eternity in heaven or hell is not a little thing. It's EVERYTHING! If she kills them now, their souls have a 100% chance of going to heaven. If she lets them live, there will always be some chance greater than zero they will go to hell. So why should she take ANY chance when she doesn't have to?

Now before you say it... I realize this mother would be committing a mortal sin herself by killing them. But suppose her love for her two kids is so great that she's willing to sacrifice her soul for theirs?

It seems to me that if you have any loved ones who are currently worthy of heaven, it would be an incredible act of heroic selflessness to kill them now and guarantee their eternal soul. So why don't more Christians do this? Is it because they place their own eternal fate above that of their loved ones?

Once again, I'm not trying to be cute. This is a serious question. If I truly believed that my kids were either going to heaven or hell when they die, I'm sure I love them enough to where I'd sacrifice my own soul and do whatever it takes to make sure they don't suffer for eternity. So I guess it's a real good thing people like me don't believe this stuff, huh?

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Because we can't secure their eternal soul. God judges the soul, we don't.

If I could be certain that by killing my children right now, they would go to heaven, I would do it. But I can't be certain. So why risk my soul for a gamble?


1 Corinthians 4
1 Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God. 2 Here now it is required among the dispensers, that a man be found faithful. 3 But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man's day; but neither do I judge my own self. 4 For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

what logical reason would a mother have NOT to send her child to heaven immediately and eliminate ANY chance this child will suffer eternally?

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It is murder. That is logical enough. If it is not logical to you, maybe you need some therapy.

Why have a child only to murder them later?

In all actuality, this post is not at all logical. As much as you want it to be, it's not.

And for it not being logical I think we gave some pretty good replies of how it would go against everything God and the sanctity of life stands for not to mention --morals!
Logic of killing off kids so they can go to heaven... all Christians would be dead by their teenage years and Christianity would cease to exist... hmmm maybe that is what they are getting at??

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

"You can't know the kid's deserving of heaven yet" (the ONLY legitimate answer to appear so far).

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How many legitimate answers are you going to demand before you let it go?

Look, I agree with you about the absurdities and inconsistencies of religious dogma, but you're trying to be way too clever here. You really don't have a question or a proposition to discuss. You're just poking a stick in the eye of religious people by ridiculing a narrow and extreme version of what you think they believe. And I'm sure you knew before you started that this would generate a lot more heat than light. Don't you have something more important to do?

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

How many legitimate answers are you going to demand before you let it go?

Look, I agree with you about the absurdities and inconsistencies of religious dogma, but you're trying to be way too clever here. You really don't have a question or a proposition to discuss. You're just poking a stick in the eye of religious people by ridiculing a narrow and extreme version of what you think they believe. And I'm sure you knew before you started that this would generate a lot more heat than light. Don't you have something more productive to do?

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No. FYI- that's not what I'm trying to do. FYI- I happen to be searching for answers that I don't understand. FYI- I used to believe in God and these are some of the reasons I don't anymore and I'm trying to see if I can't make any sense of it! So why don't you and everyone else tell me some more what I'm thinking and what I'm trying to do! Helpful Christians... Yeah right!

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

No. FYI- that's not what I'm trying to do. FYI- I happen to be searching for answers that I don't understand. FYI- I used to believe in God and these are some of the reasons why I don't anymore and I'm trying to see if I can't make any sense of it!

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If you truly want to find answers, this isn't the way to do it. You proposed a scenario that involved only a fundamentalist Christian mindset. Most of us here have progressed beyond that kind of narrowmindedness. That's why you got the responses you did.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

If you truly want to find answers, this isn't the way to do it. You proposed a scenario that involved only a fundamentalist Christian mindset. Most of us here have progressed beyond that kind of narrowmindedness. That's why you got the responses you did.

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Then how do you propose I do it? I have a REAL problem with a question like this! I was taught to believe, if you're good you go to heaven, and if your bad you go to hell.

Do you know anything about math? Do you realize the disproportion between an 80 year earthly life and INFINITY?! We're not talking about a 5 year sentence of being locked up somewhere. We're talking about an eternity of agony and suffering! So why would you not send a loved one to heaven this second if you could?

It's not a question that's dumb or narrowminded. It's a question you don't like. It's a question you don't know how to answer. And clearly, you never thought much about it, so you wish I'd accept your first half-hearted opinion, and go away.

Well you'll be glad to know that I'll go away and not post any more questions here. It's futile. If you don't understand something, you just get mad at the questioner.

Nobody is getting mad but you don't seem to understand that the sanctity of human life outweighs your argument.
The Bible says be fruitful and multiply and make disciples.
It says the devil comes to steal, kill and destroy but Jesus came to give life more abundantly
Also the Bible doesn't teach the 'be good go to heaven and bad goes to hell'.
That is how man boiled it down in his logic.
But that is a whole 'nother topic.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

And clearly, you never thought much about it

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I was the first-born child of an evangelical minister. The church was his life--and the family's life. I even became an evangelical church grade-school teacher. In addition, I have taught Sunday School and adult Bible classes for more years than you are old.

I've never thought much about it? That's all I've done all my life. Now I'm at the end of my life, so I'm really thinking about it. A lot. Truly.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Well you'll be glad to know that I'll go away and not post any more questions here. It's futile. If you don't understand something, you just get mad at the questioner.

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If you really want to explore fundamentalist beliefs, running out the door isn't the way to do it. Had you been upfront with us and posed the question more clearly, we would have answered more cogently for your purposes.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Then how do you propose I do it? I have a REAL problem with a question like this!

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I'm sorry, but I'm still not convinced that YOU have a problem you sincerely need help with.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

I was taught to believe, if you're good you go to heaven, and if your bad you go to hell.

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Any you've made it clear that you no longer hold this belief, so how are the inconsistencies it produces a problem for YOU?

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

Do you know anything about math? Do you realize the disproportion between an 80 year earthly life and INFINITY?!! We're not talking about a 5 year sentence of being locked up somewhere. We're talking about an eternity of agony and suffering! So why would you not send a loved one to heaven this second if you could?

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It's not a math problem, or a problem of logic. If it's a problem at all, it's a problem of morality. But I don't see how it can be any kind of a problem for YOU if you don't believe the premise it's based on.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

It's not a question that's dumb or narrowminded.

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It is if you don't believe the premise.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

It's a question you don't like.

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What I don't like is people pretending to have a problem that they don't actually have, and then getting all indignant when it isn't solved to their immediate satisfaction.

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Originally Posted by lobrobster

It's a question you don't know how to answer.

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It has been answered in a way that you yourself agreed was legitimate. The fact that you keep beating this long-dead horse in spite of that, tells me that a legitimate answer wasn't what you were after in the first place.

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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy

I'm sorry, but I'm still not convinced that YOU have a problem you sincerely need help with.

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You should list telepathy in your profile. It's a great skill to have.

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Any you've made it clear that you no longer hold this belief, so how are the inconsistencies it produces a problem for YOU?

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It's the REASON why I can no longer hold the belief that's the problem. Seriously, I refrain from personal insults, but it's very hard not to question your IQ level if you really can't grasp this.

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It's not a math problem, or a problem of logic. If it's a problem at all, it's a problem of morality.

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It's both, but the moralistic part is the exact opposite of the way you see it. It is EXACTLY a math and logic problem. Given these beliefs, there is nothing immoral about insuring one's eternal bliss. In fact, THAT'S the question Einstein! How is it NOT moral to send someone to heaven and immoral to take any chance they go to hell?

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What I don't like is people pretending to have a problem that they don't actually have,

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You should really make some use of yourself and provide us with the winning lottery numbers for tomorrow. Such a waste of telepathic powers!

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It has been answered in a way that you yourself agreed was legitimate.

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That came from ONE person and it seemed as though by accident. Not one other person agreed with him, elaborated, or even mentioned the same.

I am going to throw in my two cents. Honestly I would think it would be much more noble to raise your children the right way and let them earn their way to where ever you expect them to go!! It wouldn't be noble to kill them and be lazy to the fact that you would have to work really really hard to make sure they were good people!