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Originally Posted by Synnen

So because Adam listened to his wife instead of his father, he doomed the rest of us forever and ever, amen?

And didn't GOD make that decision, even then, to punish Adam? Therefore, isn't GOD responsible for all the death in the world, because he doesn't prevent it?

Look, I'm not trying to disrespect anyone's faith. What I'm trying to point out is that my arguments are the same kind of arguments that people use to justify things because "That's what the Bible says".

I'm just using my logic on "what the Bible says" here.

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I'm not feeling like you are disrepecting my faith. I think it is good to discuss things... won't always come to a conclusion but still good.

Eve was deceived, Adam wasn't, he did it knowing it was wrong. Seems like a minor sin if you compare it to mine but YES. God is a Holy God. We don't even understand what that means but he can't and won't overlook sin.

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Originally Posted by Athos

My teacher wasn't God.

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Nor was he a Fascist.

/shrug

I think that every single day, every single thing that happens to us happens either because we need to either learn something from it, or we're reaping the consequences of our own actions--or both.

I can't believe in a god that punishes inequally. Rules are rules--and if you can't follow them, you SHOULD gain the consequences of your actions. I just don't happen to think that "the consequences" include a punishment like Hell. We make our own hell here on earth, and we cage ourselves in it according to our own failings and guilt.

[QUOTE=Wondergirl;2792695]Nor was he a Fascist.[/QUOTE

You're drifting again. Get back to the point.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

We make our own hell here on earth, and we cage ourselves in it according to our own failings and guilt.

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I totally agree. I used to make my kids come up with their own punishments when they did A Bad Thing. They thought of worse things than I ever would have.

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Originally Posted by Synnen

/shrug

I think that every single day, every single thing that happens to us happens either because we need to either learn something from it, or we're reaping the consequences of our own actions--or both.

I can't believe in a god that punishes inequally. Rules are rules--and if you can't follow them, you SHOULD gain the consequences of your actions. I just don't happen to think that "the consequences" include a punishment like Hell. We make our own hell here on earth, and we cage ourselves in it according to our own failings and guilt.

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Well, I believe He gave His son to us and Jesus took all the punishment of everyone upon himself so that we don't ever have to experience any of it. He took all our guilt, failings and shame too. In fact, if we are living in a "hell of our making"... HE is more than happy to restore our lives. Jesus said he came that we may have life and MORE abundently and whosoever will may come... sounds pretty darn equal to me. I see it as a win win... both for living here and in eternity.

Again, the problem with human beings is we don't see our sin as being an afront to a Holy God. We figure we aren't all THAT bad and we see the "good" that we do as enough to cover the bad. God says otherwise. But again... that is faith. Many people believe as you do Synn.

WG,

you don't believe in hell? Interesting.. didn't know that.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I totally agree. I used to make my kids come up with their own punishments when they did A Bad Thing. They thought of worse things than I ever would have.

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That's EXACTLY how my dad raised us! And he also said that we punished ourselves worse than he would have.

I intend to utilize the same method when I raise children someday :)

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Originally Posted by classyT

Again, the problem with human beings is we don't see our sin as being an afront to a Holy God. We figure we aren't all THAT bad and we see the "good" that we do as enough to cover the bad.

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I think you generalize here to rationalize your faith. There are no less bad things done by Christians as are done by non-Christians. People who do bad things are punished by the society they live in. I don't think anyone does a plus/minus calculation to rationalize their bad things.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I think you generalize here to rationalize your faith. There are no less bad things done by Christians as are done by non-Christians. People who do bad things are punished by the society they live in. I don;t think anyone does a plus/minus calculation to rationalize their bad things.

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I agree, and I think the larger point in your post is how people rationalize faith. It's impossible not to. Or, at least, treat faith in a "meta-rational" way.

I'm not quick to simply discard the notion of faith because it doesn't meet logical standards.

As the great man said, There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I think you generalize here to rationalize your faith. There are no less bad things done by Christians as are done by non-Christians. People who do bad things are punished by the society they live in. I don;t think anyone does a plus/minus calculation to rationalize their bad things.

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? I agree. Sin is sin.. I sin as a Christian and tend to think it isn't THAT bad. My statement has nothing to do with whether someone is a Christian or NOT. It is about God and how he views sin and what he did about it. Of course if you don't believe God exsists that is another story.

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Originally Posted by Athos

I'm not quick to simply discard the notion of faith because it doesn't meet logical standards.

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I wasn't applying logical standards per se. If someone needs a book to keep them on the straight and narrow then read on I say! But not everyone has this requirement - that's basically my point.

NK,

Christianity isn't about being kept on the striaght and narrow. It is about GRACE. It is about me not being able to keep the law of God and Jesus did it for me so I could be perfect in the eyes of God. PERFECT.. me! Are you gagging yet. I know how you like me and all.. ha ha.. but that is what Christianity is about. And sorry to get off thread.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I wasn't applying logical standards per se. If someone needs a book to keep them on the straight and narrow then read on I say! But not everyone has this requirement - that's basically my point.

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Ok, I read something into your post that wasn't there.

But don't we all read books, in one sense or another, to keep us on the straight and narrow? The"book" of our parents as we grow up?

But, I may be quibbling over semantics. We learn about life from many sources.

Hey all-I like these kinds of debates as much as the next person, but I think we need to stop going off track so much. This thread is about May 21st, and that date is soon approaching. We hijacked it and turned it into something totally different.

I'd really like this thread to still be in tact on that date and the following dates. I know it's not MY thread-but I just thought I'd throw that out there.

We could start another thread to continue this current train of thought if we wanted to.

Wow, this thread has really gone off track. Why don't we try to get it back to the original meaning before the big BenHammer closes it. I'd like to have it open when HSB has to come eat crow on May 22. :p

And shall we delete the post on May 22 ? * LOL*

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

And shall we delete the post on May 22 ? * LOL*

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No need. It'll delete itself in the earthquake.

Wait at least until May 23 remember the international date line it might be late

Well times ticking on so I'd though I'd add this little snippet

CATS to be saved by BLASPHEMERS after the RAPTURE ? The Register

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Originally Posted by Curlyben

Well times ticking on so I'd though I'd add this little snippet

CATS to be saved by BLASPHEMERS after the RAPTURE ? The Register

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I'm not planning to be raptured, but I have five cats, Ben. I could add your crew to mine for a small fee.