Inthebox,
First you can't prove one hypothesis correct by proving another one wrong. That isn't the way science works.

Second evolution is a fact. Just because a group of uneducated Americans don't understand it. It doesn't make it any less factual.

Third if you want to prove god you have to prove the supernatural. Otherwise a natural solution is more likely to be the answer.

Joe,

I'll admit Catholics are much better than many Christians when it comes to scientific matters. Even the pope(old pope) has said evolution is true. Anyone that is willing to learn is great. These aren't the people I have a problem with. It's people like TJ3 who know enough to overwhelm the average person with false knowledge. So he manages to convince many people of his rhetoric not because it is true but because he appear to know more than the average person. TJ3 has proven many time he isn't here to learn he is here to spread his ideas without regard for factual evidence.

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Originally Posted by michealb

It's people like TJ3 who .... manages to convince many people of his rhetoric not because it is true but because he appears to know more than the average person. TJ3 has proven many times he isn't here to learn, he is here to spread his ideas without regard for factual evidence.

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How true!!

Now : is there anyone here who can provide any DIRECT OSE for the existence of "God"??

:) :) :) :) :) :)

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Energy and matter are one and the same. They are different appearances of one and the same.

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Shades of the "west pointing compass" once again! In order to defend your beliefs, you will ignore science.

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In the universe that can be seen everywhere. Matter appears out of - and disappears into - energy.

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Dirt grows plants which can be made into food. Since one is made of the other, they must be the same, so why don't you eat dirt - dirt and food must be one and the same according to your logic!

Just because there is a conversion does not mean that they are one and the same. If they were, there would not be the speed of light squared in Einstein's equation.

You need to take a few months off this board and either read a science book on the topic or take a course in quantum physics.

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But that has nothing to do with (this topic : ) Objective Supported Evidence for the existence of "God".

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Agreed. It was one of your friends that raised this point claiming that it proved that energy existed from eternity.

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Originally Posted by michealb

It's people like TJ3 who know enough to overwhelm the average person with false knowledge. So he manages to convince many people of his rhetoric not because it is true but because he appear to know more than the average person. TJ3 has proven many time he isn't here to learn he is here to spread his ideas without regard for factual evidence.

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If that were true, michaelb, then it should be very easy for you to refute what I have said.

Why then, do you see the need to made unsubstantiated false accusations against me rather than provide that factual rebuttal?

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

How true !!!

Now : is there anyone here who can provide any DIRECT OSE for the existence of "God" ???

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Sure. It comes straight out of the OP:

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As you well know, and as I established very early on in this discussion we have only two options, and that is that God created all that there is, or that it came about naturally. I have asked a number of questions now to which neither you nor your atheist friends could provide a plausible answer. If there is no possible means by which these events occurred naturally, then there is only once answer. God created and thus God exists. For each of these questions for which there is no natural answer, you have a proof of God. And there are many many more proofs that could yet be posted. The usual respond to these issues from non-Christians are insults, ad hominems, and ridicule - but no answer. That is in and of itself an admission that no answer for a natural explanation exists.

EYE : How about the eye. Can anyone give a plausible explanation as to how the eye came to be?

DNA : In every living or previously living cell, we find an operating system (O/S) program written which is more complex than any MAC or PC. In addition to the program, we find that every cell has the built in capability to read and interpret this programming language. And this goes back to the simplest, and, according to evolutionists, most ancient type of cell in existence.
If one found a PC with Windows O/S on it, or even a simple handheld with Windows CE O/S on it, it would automatically be taken to be proof positive of the existence of a capable and intelligent advanced designer. Do any atheists have a plausible explanation for how this advanced programming language, along with reader/interpreter came to be?

SIMPLE SINGLE CELL :
How did the simple cells come to be created?

POND SCUM : Pericles claimed that the answer to the question abive was that the single cells came from pond scum, which is in and itself a form of life - how did it come to be?

AUSTRALIAN BRUSH TURKEY : An interesting animal. It does not sit the eggs to incubate them, but rather creates a compost pile to provide the heat, which must be maintained at around 33 degrees. The eggs are laid down at the precise depth and in a circle where that exact heat will be maintained. The turkey does not lay the eggs right away, but waits until the compost pile has reached the necessary temperature. The is requires that the brush turkey understand heat and decomposition, as well as how the heat radiates and be able to calculate the precise depth and pattern at which the necessary heat occurs. And it has to understand that this is all required to hatch chicks. To have gained this knowledge by chance would be impossible because there are too many variables to all the brush turkey to figure out the linkage between heat and hatching eggs and then precisely what heat is required and how to obtain it. The existence of God and his creation of this animal explains this.

MACAWS : Macaws are birds that feed on poisonous seeds, and in order to live, after they eat, they must eat a certain type of mud which neutralizes the poison.
How did this evolve? What is the natural explanation for this? The existence of God explains it.

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Each is direct OSE, because if there is only one way for it to have occurred (since no one here has provided a second feasible approach), then God must exist, or these things would not exist.

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Energy and matter are one and the same. They are different appearances of one and the same.

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I think the quote goes like this “mass and energy are two forms of the same thing.” Mass is not matter rather the inertia or gravitational attraction of one body of matter to another. This distinction is critical because raw or pure energy cannot make matter. Nor does matter create itself. Thus, the hand of the creator, God, is required for the existence of nature as well as man.

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Originally Posted by michealb

I'll admit Catholics are much better than many Christians when it comes to scientific matters. Even the pope(old pope) has said evolution is true.

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The Pope didn't say evolution is true. He said that believing Catholics can accept evolution as long as it doesn't reject God as the first cause or mover. He also said Catholics can accept the literal reading of creation in Genesis.

To be frank, I don't know where I stand between these two options. I don't know that the natural sciences has proven evolution to any acceptable standard, and yet I have no problem believing in the literal sense of Genesis without out any “proof”. The act of selecting evolution or creation, requires faith as a prerequisite. It's a matter of putting your faith in man (the scientist) or God or the creator. Pretty simple isn't it? I choose God – without which the purpose of life seems pretty pointless.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by michealb

Inthebox,
First you can't prove one hypothesis correct by proving another one wrong. That isn't the way science works.

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Actually, science often works by means of eliminating options. For example, do you know how many of the planets today are being discovered? By looking at the effects on various suns (wobble in their rotation) and then eliminating other possibilities.

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Second evolution is a fact. Just because a group of uneducated Americans don't understand it. It doesn't make it any less factual.

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These uneducated Americans would include large numbers of top scientists.

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Originally Posted by michealb

…evolution is a fact. Just because a group of uneducated Americans don't understand it.

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What's being said here is that those who don't agree with you are ignorant. This is elitism as well as one of the symptoms of GroupThink.

Does this mean Catholics can't join your science club?

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

... Thus, the hand of the creator, God, is required for the existence of nature as well as man.

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THUS?? Incorrect conclusion. The existence of "God" (with hand or without) is an issue that requires OSE itself : only DIRECT OSE can confirm that hypothesis.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by michealb

Inthebox,
First you can't prove one hypothesis correct by proving another one wrong. That isn't the way science works.

Second evolution is a fact. Just because a group of uneducated Americans don't understand it. It doesn't make it any less factual.

Third if you want to prove god you have to prove the supernatural. Otherwise a natural solution is more likely to be the answer.

Joe,

I'll admit Catholics are much better than many Christians when it comes to scientific matters. Even the pope(old pope) has said evolution is true. Anyone that is willing to learn is great. These aren't the people I have a problem with. It's people like TJ3 who know enough to overwhelm the average person with false knowledge. So he manages to convince many people of his rhetoric not because it is true but because he appear to know more than the average person. TJ3 has proven many time he isn't here to learn he is here to spread his ideas without regard for factual evidence.

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https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...ml#post1146244


Evolution is a fact because you say so?

Where is your OSE?

Ecoli ? You could not rebut post 121 on ICR logic thread - is that your
proof"?


You can not prove evolution with OSE no more than I can bottle up God and show you "proof." It takes faith / belief in random chance and natural selection to believe in evolution.

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Today’s New Reason To Believe » Blog Archive » A Biochemical Watch Found in a Cellular Heath

According to the watchmaker analogy:

Watches display design. Watches are the product of a watchmaker.

Organisms display design. Therefore, organisms are the product of a Creator


Paley’s case for the Creator only becomes stronger with every new example of a biomotor that biochemists discover



.
ScienceDirect - Structure : Recent Cyanobacterial Kai Protein Structures Suggest a Rotary Clock


The cyanobacterial circadian clock is based on the intrinsic ATPase activity of KaiC — PNAS

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At least those of us who believe in God are first to say it first takes faith - then you can see the proof in His creations.

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

THUS ??? Incorrect conclusion. The existence of "God" (with hand or without) is an issue that requires OSE itself : only DIRECT OSE can confirm that hypothesis.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Well, if you’re correct just make me a plate full of matter, preferably in the form of a rare juicy stake! If you could beam it over here while it’s still hot, I’d appreciate it.

JoeT

Mass is just a measurement of how much matter.
Like 1 cup of water. It's still water there is just a cup of it. So the equation E=MC2 the M stands mass because that how you measure how much matter there is.

Don't count on us converting enough energy into mass to make you steak any time soon. Since the amount of pure energy it takes to make a mass is incredible due to the conversion rate of C=299,792,458 squared. So basically your steak would require more energy than the entire human race is capable of producing right now.

TJ3 and Inthebox,

You will never accept evolution no matter how much proof I give you. As I have said just because you ignore the evidence won't make it go away. Evolution is fact into that has been proven true by every new piece of evidence we have ever discovered. TJ3's question have reasonable answers he just won't accept evolution as the answer.

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Originally Posted by michealb

Mass is just a measurement of how much matter.

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And the mass of energy is zero.

So energy is not matter.

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TJ3 and Inthebox,

You will never accept evolution no matter how much proof I give you.

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I used to be an evolutionist, and it was the evidence that convinced me that I was wrong.

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Evolution is fact into that has been proven true by every new piece of evidence we have ever discovered. TJ3's question have reasonable answers he just won't accept evolution as the answer.

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Microevolution is a fact. Macroevolution is not a fact and has never been proven. No matter how many times you say it, it is no more true than it was the last time that you said it.

"Genetics has no proofs for evolution. It has trouble explaining it. The closer one looks at the evidence for evolution the less one finds of substance. In fact the theory keeps on postulating evidence, and failing to find it, moves on to other postulates (fossil missing links, natural selection of improved forms, positive mutations, molecular phylogenetic sequences, etc.). This is not science."
(Source: Professor Macieji Giertych, B.A. M.A. from Oxon, Ph.D. from Toronto, D.Sc. From Poznan, Head of Genetics Department, Polish Academy of Science, Institute of Dendrology, Poland)

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Well, if you’re correct just make me a plate full of matter, preferably in the form of a rare juicy stake! If you could beam it over here while it’s still hot, I’d appreciate it.

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Jow : that is more the territory of science fiction. Captain Kirk and co...

What a pity that you failed to address that the existence of "God" is an issue that requires OSE itself , because only DIRECT OSE can confirm that hypothesis.

:)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

And the mass of energy is zero. So energy is not matter.

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Matter and energy are different appearances of the same thing.

But I do not see how this has anything to do with Objective Supported Evidence for "God's" existence. So you are off-topic.
How strange that you - who is so eager to accuse others of going off-topic when their post disagrees with you - are already almost the entire topic off-topic yourself, despite many requests to return to the topic, and show us that arguments for anything but the existence of "God" can be construed as OSE for the existence of "God" .
That is the topic.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

What a pity that you failed to address that the existence of "God" is an issue that requires OSE itself , because only DIRECT OSE can confirm that hypothesis.

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Cred, you have proven over and over no matter what evidence is given, you will reject it out of hand without even providing any validation for so doing if it disagrees with you.

Tom

"The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms of microevolution (mutations and natural selection) could be extrapolated to explain the phenomenon of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear "NO"!
(Source: Roger Lewin, "Evolutionary Theory Under Fire", Science, Vol.210, No. 4472 (Nov 21, 1980) pp.883-887)

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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Matter and energy are different appearances of the same thing.

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This is a tenet of your faith. But energy and matter are not the same thing.

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But I do not see how this has anything to do with Objective Supported Evidence for "God's" existence. So you are off-topic.

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This was brought up by one of your atheist friends. Interesting how you said nothing to them - oh but they were agreeing with you, and now things have gone badly for your side of the discussion.

I agree that it has nothing to do with OSE for or against the existence of God.

Tom

"A circular argument arises: interpret the fossil record in terms of the particular theory of evolution, inspect the interpretation and note that it confirms that very period. Well it would, wouldn't it?"
(Source: Tom Kemp, "A Fresh Look at the Fossil record", New Scientist, Vol.108,No.1485 (Dec 5,1985), p.66)

Cred,

You win cred. You win! You are the smartest of the bunch. Tell it to God at the Great White throne. You can stand before him and tell HIM there is no OSE that he even exists and therefore he CAN'T judge you according to your works! AND then you can proceed to roll your eyes over and over for effect. Maybe you can even add a "duh"? ( I was going to say that I would be the one snickering... but you know what?. I wouldn't wish what will happen next on anyone... not even YOU.)

Oops.. I'm off topic again... oh well you know us blondes...

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Originally Posted by Tj3

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Originally Posted by credendovidis

Matter and energy are different appearances of the same thing.

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This is a tenet of your faith. But energy and matter are not the same thing.

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Read what I posted : I NEVER claimed they are the same thing.
I clearly stated that matter and energy are DIFFERENT APPEARANCES of the same thing.

I understand from your posts that although you claim to be an electrical engineer your scientific knowledge and understanding is minimal, but still...

As stated before :

I do not see how this has anything to do with Objective Supported Evidence for "God's" existence.
So you are OFF-TOPIC.
YOU ARE ALREADY ALMOST THIS ENTIRE LEAD OFF TOPIC YOURSELF, despite many requests to return to the topic, and show us that arguments for anything but the existence of "God" can be construed as OSE for the existence of "God" .
That is the topic.

Just blaming someone else for doing that, and than follow that person by replying off-topic is simply hypocrite , implausible , and haughty.

So can we now all get back on-topic, please ?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


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Originally Posted by Credendovidis

Read what I posted : I NEVER claimed they are the same thing.
I clearly stated that matter and energy are DIFFERENT APPEARANCES of the same thing.

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I have a black car - you have a blue car - different appearances of the same thing.

Energy and matter are NOT the same thing, nor is it just an matter of "appearance".

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I understand from your posts that although you claim to be an electrical engineer your scientific knowledge and understanding is minimal, but still...

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Cred, I got a real degree and a real license, not one from high school :D

I do not mind someone who thinks magnetic compass points west thinking that my scientific knowledge is much different than theirs!

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As stated before :

[I]I do not see how this has anything to do with Objective Supported Evidence for "God's" existence.

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Agreed. It is your atheist friends who brought forward this argument, and I agree that the argument does nothing to support their claim. I am glad that you agree, and I hope that you and your friends will get back on topic now!