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Originally Posted by Akoue

What is the difference between rejecting the desire and not acting on the desire? How does one a reject a desire other than by refusing to act on it?

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If a man is tempted to lust after seeing an attractive woman, but rejects the desire to think of her with lust, then he have not committed the sin of lusting after her. That lustful thought must be accepted before this person would consider going the extra step of propositioning the girl into an adulterous act.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

If a man is tempted to lust after seeing an attractive woman, but rejects the desire to think of her with lust, then he have not committed the sin of lusting after her. That lustful thought must be accepted before this person would consider going the extra step of propositioning the girl into an adulterous act.

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One can have a desire before being fully aware of onself having it. It's only if one embraces the desire that sin has been committed (this seems to be the force of the example you give). This suggests that the mere desire isn't itself sinful. One has to do something with that desire in order for a sin to be committed, by embracing it (lust) or acting on it (adultery). If this is true, then it's unclear to me how the mere having of a homosexual desire is sinful.

I got so wrapped up in the details of sexual differentiation that I didn't make an important distinction. Gender identity is what sex a person thinks they are. So a five year old decides, "I feel male" or "I feel female." Most of the time that corresponds to both their genetic and physical sex, but, unfortunately, not always. That's why some people grow up in a male body feeling they are female or the reverse.

Which sex you are attracted to is a separate, independent issue. I am not sure when that becomes fixed, but I have heard plenty of anecdotal accounts of kids being vaguely attracted to the opposite sex at quite young ages.

The earlier information comes from a textbook of human development and from research by a pediatric surgeon who does sex assignment surgery to intersex infants. It was not my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

One can have a desire before being fully aware of onself having it.

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It is not a desire if one is unaware. If so you are saying that one can sin by lusting after a woman and not be aware that he is lusting after her.

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Originally Posted by asking

I got so wrapped up in the details of sexual differentiation that I didn't make an important distinction. Gender identity is what sex a person thinks they are. So a five year old decides, "I feel male" or "I feel female."

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Like I said, you don't have kids do you?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Like I said, you don't have kids do you?

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The earlier information comes from a textbook of human development and from research by a pediatric surgeon who does sex assignment surgery to intersex infants. It was not my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

It is not a desire if one is unaware. If so you are saying that one can sin by lusting after a woman and not be aware that he is lusting after her.

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So you're saying the mere desire is itself already lust. If a desire pops into my head, even before I can refuse it, I've already sinned? I would have thought that in order for the desire to count as lust, I would have to affirm it in some way inwardly. But you appear to hold the view that the mere occurrence of the desire is already sinful. Is that right?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Like I said, you don't have kids do you?

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Now THAT's ad hominem.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

So you're saying the mere desire is itself already lust. If a desire pops into my head, even before I can refuse it, I've already sinned?

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I think that you are mistaking temptation for the lust itself.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Now THAT's ad hominem.

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Not at all.

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Originally Posted by asking

The earlier information comes from a textbook of human development and from research by a pediatric surgeon who does sex assignment surgery to intersex infants. It was not my opinion.

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Well, I guess that all kids under 5 that I have ever known, including myself must be exceptions.

I note that you did not address my point directly.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Well, I guess that all kids under 5 that I have ever known, including myself must be exceptions.

I note that you did not address my point directly.

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I don't think my reproductive status is relevant. What is YOUR point?

Exceptions in what way? Were you sexually active at 3?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

I think that you are mistaking temptation for the lust itself.

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And I think you are conflating desire and sinful desire. The latter are typed not according the object of the desire but according to the attitude of the subject toward the desire. It is a subject's response to the desire, once it emerges, that either is or is not sinful.

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Originally Posted by asking

I don't think my reproductive status is relevant. What is YOUR point?

Exceptions in what way? Were you sexually active at 3?

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Are you now saying that you include sexual activity as an essential part of gender identity?

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Originally Posted by Akoue

And I think you are conflating desire and sinful desire.

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So you are trying to tell me that one can have a desire for sin without a sinful desire.

I guess that Jesus must have gotten it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Ah, but you're trying to be rational. Can't allow that to happen.

What you say here makes me wonder why Tom doesn't want to say whether he takes the literal meaning of the Bible to be inerrant and infallible. He knows that if he says yes, then Ps.104.5 is waiting for him (it says the earth doesn't move) and he knows that if he says no, then that means the meaning of lots of passages that he wants to read literally is up for grabs.

It's just never a good idea to turn the Bible into an object of worship. That too is a kind of idolatry.

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I'm nothing if I'm not rational. That is what gets me into a lot of trouble with religious people and also the people on another topic about séances and making contact with evil spirits. I just have too much darn logic and rationale:rolleyes:.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Are you now saying that you include sexual activity as an essential part of gender identity?

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I am saying that if you have a point to make about gender identity, make it.

I have no idea what you were attempting to imply by stating that I must not have children.

Edit: (Well, except for the totally obvious implication that you don't think I know what I'm talking about and this is all just my opinion. As I said, it's not my opinion but the statement of an expert in this field. The surgeon said that he wished he could wait to do gender assignment surgery until kids were old enough to tell him what sex they thought they were--about age 5--because in a significant percentage of cases, surgeons choose the wrong sex. The make a child "female" and the child grows up not knowing why they they feel male. Or the reverse. He said the surgery needs to be done early though because the family (and society) cannot handle not having a specific sex.)

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Originally Posted by Tj3

You don't have kids, do you?

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I have kids and Askings post makes perfect sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Not at all.

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Why do you keep asking if Asking has kids. What kind of difference would that make? I don't get the connection.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Are you now saying that you include sexual activity as an essential part of gender identity?

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Why do people keep answering questions with questions?