Text = content. E.g., Jesus died on a cross so our sins will be forgiven. Let's expand text to mean teachings, the heart or moral of each story.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
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Text = content. E.g., Jesus died on a cross so our sins will be forgiven. Let's expand text to mean teachings, the heart or moral of each story.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Back to the original question ------
If your Christian religion is based on belief and you find yourself acting in an un-Christ-like fashion by dispararging the religion of others and acting in a mean and insulting manner, then your professed religion is not the one for you.
It is a simple and effective test.
And that is a belief of yours.
WG, are you saying now that you accept the teachings of Jesus?
"Now"????Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Yeah. You remember what I asked about 5 million posts ago? "Do you believe what He said?" You have steadfastly refused to answer, and have come up with statements such as, "We don't have His exact words, just transcriptions and translations over the centuries." Or there was this scarcely faith-filled comment. "Who recorded them, wrote them down, when He said them?" But NOW you are saying you accept His teachings. Yet I bet you really don't. His teachings don't agree with your liberal ideas, so you cannot accept them.
Yup, reading comprehension. Literalist to the core!
It certainly is.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
If I didn't believe it was true, I would not have posted it.
I wasn't being necessarily critical of your comment. I was trying to draw attention to your first statement. "It's never what one BELIEVES, but how one ACTS. THAT is the right religion for anyone." That was also a belief statement. At the end of the day, I think that's what we need to be most careful of. Our actions are generally birthed by our beliefs.Quote:
If I didn't believe it was true, I would not have posted it
Just the comment of a person with no arguments. It's like saying, "I made statements I cannot defend, so I'll just call the other guy a literalist (which is really pitiful) and try to squeeze out of it." It's why I so dislike trying to discuss anything with you. When you get stuck, you always want to blame it on someone else. In your view, your liberal beliefs just couldn't be at fault.Quote:
Yup, reading comprehension. Literalist to the core!
You're still missing the point. See my post #8 in this thread which I assume you didn't read. That post explains what you missed.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
My quote above that you cited refers to RELIGIOUS belief - not to belief in general. You have equated the two usages of "belief". They are not the same.
Sorry to say it's that reading comprehension problem you have. You don't always understand the meaning of words when they are used within different contexts. Children learn how to distinguish the different nuances of same words as they begin to learn language as babies.
Not at all. Our actions too often are the opposite of our beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Maybe. It's an interesting thought, but only if you intend for us to take that statement literally. Is that the case? Perhaps you really meant, in a figurative way, that you completely agree with my ideas. I hope so!Quote:
Not at all. Our actions too often are the opposite of our beliefs.
I'm not sure I agree with that, but it is worth considering. I think it's more likely that our many beliefs contend for mastery with each other. So if "Joe" believes abortion is wrong, but refuses to take a public stand against it, then perhaps his belief that personal convenience and public approval are both really important simply overrides his weaker belief about abortion. Perhaps his belief that abortion is wrong is a relatively weak belief. I think that our stronger "faith" always wins. The outcome depends upon what our faith was looking at. But I still like your point. It's caused me to think, and I wouldn't be prepared to say your statement is wrong. Fears, prejudices, and desires enter into the picture as well.
And yes, I mean that literally.
You will not see me make a silly plea to someone else's reading comprehension in order to defend the weakness or lack of clarity of my statements.
Or "Sally," a Christian and the mother of five children, is 39 and four months pregnant. Two forms of birth control failed. She has been told by her husband, an agnostic, never to get pregnant again, that they can't afford another child, and he will divorce her if she goes through with this pregnancy. What now?
They can always kill an unborn human being. Would that solve the problem?
They could kill one of their already born children. How would that be different?
This Christian woman does not know how to pray and appeal to her Heavenly Father for help? Why did that option not occur to you? So sad that a professing Christian never even thought of prayer. Well, I know what my wife would have told me. "Get out of this house, you piece of garbage. You'll not have my baby killed."Baby at about four months. How sad that you seem to be so eager to present a case for death.Quote:
"When I came, why was there no one? When I called, why was there no one to answer? Was my arm too short to deliver you? Do I lack the strength to rescue you? By a mere rebuke I dry up the sea, I turn rivers into a desert; their fish rot for lack of water and die of thirst. I clothe the heavens with darkness and make sackcloth its covering.”
https://media.sciencephoto.com/image...s,_artwork.jpg
How would prayer help?
Are you serious??? You are actually asking how prayer could help? Don't really know what to say to that. The truth is revealed, I guess.
What would Jesus say to you for asking such a question?Quote:
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
At some point a person has to take a stand. It is better to suffer for doing what is right than to engage in what amounts to murder and live a soft life.Quote:
16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. 17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18 But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.”
Truly, how would prayer help? God isn't going to whisper in her ear. Sally could pray and decide God wants her to abort the baby so as not to lose the husband she loves dearly and who is the devoted father of their children.
I can think of a more productive/utilitarian way to work this out and not only save the pregnancy but also save the marriage. AND it would be God-pleasing.
Back to the original question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Don't most (all?) of the major religions profess the Golden Rule?
If I'm near or with a person whom I know to be a Christian disparaging another's religion or even someone's Christian denomination, what should I say, if anything?
How do you know?Quote:
Truly, how would prayer help? God isn't going to whisper in her ear.
Well, why wouldn't God just tell her to kill one of her other children? You really think God would tell this woman to kill her unborn child, and do so in order to hold on to a husband who demands she have an abortion?Quote:
Sally could pray and decide God wants her to abort the baby so as not to lose the husband she loves dearly and who is the devoted father of their children.
Find out what happened to Samuel's mother when she prayed. Sometimes it seems you have the littlest faith of anyone I've met in a long time who claims to be a Christian. Perhaps I have a false impression.
How many of the world's religions believe that Jesus is the only way to God as He said He was? Oops. I forgot. You discount the NT.Quote:
Don't most (all?) of the major religions profess the Golden Rule?
Easy. Tell them that's not very Christ-like. Christ didn't disparage the religion of others. In fact, he said to love your neighbor. Neighbors come in all sizes and religions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Irrelevant. Only Christianity says that. No other religion says that. I hope you don't think that's some sort of proof that Christianity is the only way to God. Even the largest Christian denomination doesn't claim that.Quote:
How many of the world's religions believe that Jesus is the only way to God as He said He was?
The best religion is the one that teaches its adherents to behave lovingly and ethically towards one's neighbor. A Christian (or non-Christian) acting otherwise is a bad example and not to be imitated or admired.
Rather than scold them (and they immediately stop listening), I would use "I" statements and gently dig into their reasoning/rationale. Then I would, along the way, carefully remind them what Jesus encouraged us to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Excellent!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
(No one was scolding anyone, if that's what you were thinking).
Except that, as you know, you have already repeatedly said that we really don't know what Jesus said.Quote:
carefully remind them what Jesus encouraged us to do.
I'm just telling you what Jesus said. Perhaps you will have a chance to correct Him someday.Quote:
I hope you don't think that's some sort of proof that Christianity is the only way to God.
Why do you believe that?Quote:
The best religion is the one that teaches its adherents to behave lovingly and ethically towards one's neighbor.
Quote:
from Athos
I hope you don't think that's some sort of proof that Christianity is the only way to God.
Thank you. Then you do NOT think it is some sort of proof that Christianity is the only way to God?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Here you seem to be saying Christianity IS the only way to God. I will go with this one.Quote:
Perhaps you will have a chance to correct Him someday.
A not-so-veiled threat.
Thank you.
It gives me a chance to tell more about primitive religion. It is characteristic of these religions that the gods brook no acknowledgement of other religions. The adherents will usually condemn non-believers to death or to a more hideous fate - eternal punishment in hell.
Christianity is the prime example that has both a primitive retention of origins dating back to Judaism while also possessing an evolved sense of altruism, also dating back to Judaism.
The primitive aspect is in the process of being discarded, being held only by a marginal faction at present.
Quote:
from Athos
The best religion is the one that teaches its adherents to behave lovingly and ethically towards one's neighbor.
It is common among those religions that have developed over long periods of time. It is also self-evident that humanity is at its best when acting lovingly and ethically toward one another.Quote:
from Jlisenbe
Why do you believe that?
So you accept that because it is taught by the same religions that also teach the concept of judgment? Interesting that you accept one idea but not the other. Still, go to India. Look around. See how the Hindu religion seems to be teaching loving your neighbor. Moslems? The evidence is plain that ethical behavior towards your neighbor is not high on the list of priorities. See how their women are treated. Look at the religions developed among the native Americans here. They routinely attacked and killed neighboring tribes. It is self-evident to you because you have been influenced by the remnants of the Christian west, but to many people around the world, it is self evident that the world is proceeding best when your neighbors are being killed or subjugated.Quote:
It is common among those religions that have developed over long periods of time. It is also self-evident that humanity is at its best when acting lovingly and ethically toward one another.
As to the rest of your comments, I'll stick with the words of the man who was raised from the dead. If He says that people only come to God through Him and that a day of judgment is coming, then that's good enough for me. I find no reason why I would want to take your word over His.
We don't know His EXACT WORDS. We do know the messages He taught.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
So you do accept that in Matthew 25 (and a number of other places) Jesus taught a "message" of Him someday sending people to hell?Quote:
We don't know His EXACT WORDS. We do know the messages He taught.
The kindest, gentlest, most loving people I have ever known and worked with for years were from India. Many library patrons were Muslim, also wonderful people. They truly followed the Golden Rule!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Thank God Christians individually and in groups have not and still don't murder, torture, rape, etc. people of their own religion or in other religions! </sarcasm>
Then you need to find a different church to attend.Quote:
The kindest, gentlest, most loving people I have ever known and worked with for years were from India
Please don't evade this. "So you do accept that in Matthew 25 (and a number of other places) Jesus taught a "message" of Him someday sending people to hell?"
Why would He send people to hell?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Again, please don't evade this. "So you do accept that in Matthew 25 (and a number of other places) Jesus taught a "message" of Him someday sending people to hell?"
That is based upon this comment of yours. "We don't know His EXACT WORDS. We do know the messages He taught."
Why? I am loved and return that love. And am still in touch with many via email, LinkedIn, Quora, Zoom, Skype, FB Messenger.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
What was the REAL lesson He was teaching?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Again, please don't evade this. "So you do accept that in Matthew 25 (and a number of other places) Jesus taught a "message" of Him someday sending people to hell?"
That is based upon this comment of yours. "We don't know His EXACT WORDS. We do know the messages He taught."
Nope. There is a message He taught that supersedes the obvious (literal) one you're hung up on.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
So you don't accept his messages after all. At least you admit it. Only those which survive the journey through your liberal philosophies are accepted in your world.
And then, of course, comes the pathetic appeal to literalism.
As noted, religions are in various stages of development. They can contain both a primitive nature and a developed nature. It is no surprise that judgement is taught by many. Judgement can be fair or not fair. It depends on the circumstances.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
This is not a case of "accepting one idea but not the other" as though you have discovered something faulty in the reasoning. In all walks of life including religion, some ideas are good, others are not. You should not be having trouble with this obvious concept.
This shows how little you know of other religions.Quote:
Still, go to India. Look around. See how the Hindu religion seems to be teaching loving your neighbor. Moslems? The evidence is plain that ethical behavior towards your neighbor is not high on the list of priorities. See how their women are treated. Look at the religions developed among the native Americans here. They routinely attacked and killed neighboring tribes.
Your disparagements of other religions are equally true of Christianity. In fact, historically, Christianity is the worst. No religious god has been more evil than the god of the Bible who destroyed the entire race of humans on a whim. And who, according to some, sends people to hell for the simple fact of not believing in him. No God is or ever has been more primitive.
However, with the onset of the Hebrew prophets and with Jesus Christ, this religion has made giant steps away from the raw killing nature of the god it began with. There is much left to be done.
When a thing is self-evident, that means it stands on its own, not requiring additional proof.Quote:
It is self-evident to you because you have been influenced by the remnants of the Christian west
There is nothing self-evident about those people. They are driven by religion which they misinterpret as demanding killing and violence. It requires many factors to believe such evil, none of which are self-evident.Quote:
to many people around the world, it is self evident that the world is proceeding best when your neighbors are being killed or subjugated.
That is your privilege to believe whatever you wish to believe. You have every right to believe what is written in a series of two thousand year old books, as many do. Those books also have a message of love and ethics, without which a belief in miracles doesn't matter much.Quote:
As to the rest of your comments, I'll stick with the words of the man who was raised from the dead. If He says that people only come to God through Him and that a day of judgment is coming, then that's good enough for me.
No one is asking you to take one word over another. As noted, it is your privilege to believe what you want to believe. You, and others like you, are simply being presented with a reasonable examination of the growth and development of religion.Quote:
I find no reason why I would want to take your word over His.
Your belief. Nothing more.Quote:
As noted, religions are in various stages of development.
I'm sure God has noted your objections.Quote:
However, with the onset of the Hebrew prophets and with Jesus Christ, this religion has made giant steps away from the raw killing nature of the god it began with. There is much left to be done.
No one said there was.Quote:
There is nothing self-evident about those people.
Again, just your belief which you are entitles. However, it makes no sense and there is no compelling reason to believe it.Quote:
Those books also have a message of love and ethics, without which a belief in miracles doesn't matter much.
A REASONED observation. It will take more to cast it aside than merely denying it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Which God?Quote:
I'm sure God has noted your objections.
It makes eminent good sense to anyone rationally examining the issue. To those blinded by an unreasoning faith in bad religion, not so. Merely denying is not a compelling REASON not to believe it. You need more than that.Quote:
Again, just your belief ........ However, it makes no sense and there is no compelling reason to believe it.
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