WG
Actually the word in the Greek ( I am sure you already know) is sozo. And it means saved in every way a person can be saved. But to be specific I would like to know how you think a person is saved from perishing in his sins after he dies.
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WG
Actually the word in the Greek ( I am sure you already know) is sozo. And it means saved in every way a person can be saved. But to be specific I would like to know how you think a person is saved from perishing in his sins after he dies.
I have no idea what that means.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
WG,
Sure you do.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not PERISH BUT HAVE EVERYLASTING LIFE.
The verse lets us know that those that don't believe in him perish and do not have everlasting Life.
What does "perish" mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Not so. That's a common teaching from teachers who know a smattering about the language, and it's wrong. It means "rescue." Sometimes it means rescue from peril, sometimes it means "rescue" in the sense of "salvation" of the soul, sometimes it means "rescue" in the sense of helping reconcile people having a feud. Like similar English words, it means different things in different contexts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
This is one of my pet peeves. Ultra-Evangelical "scholars" have been over-translating Greek for decades, and the language just won't hold all the water they want to pour into it. It's a practice that needs to stop because it's not doing anybody any good (except making money for the guys who write the books about it).
WG
Everlasting destruction. What do you think it means?
Dave,
Ok. Good to know. Thanks
You really want to send everyone to your hell!Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
"Perish" can refer to quality of life here on earth.
There is one thing we can know for sure, if life is good, then to perish is very bad. I would not want to try it out myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
WG,
I don't want to send anyone to hell. Neither does the Lord, that is the reason he died. It is part of the gospel.. GOOD NEWS. We don't have to go there.
There have been plenty of good Christians who have lived a hard horrible life. A hell on earth. How can you explain that? There are plenty of ungodly people who live wonderful lives. It rains on the just and unjust here on earth.
There are a lot of Christians who live lives in which they sin over and over again. "Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief." And a lot of non-Christians who live loving, joyous lives that outdo many Christians.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
WG
True. But it has got nothing to do with eternity.
Guess there won't be many people in heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
WG
I believe His grace is far bigger than we think it is and the gospel is so simple there will be more people in heaven than we can imagine. Having said that... being saved from an eternity in hell is what the bible preaches and there isn't any way around it.
He will take revenge on those who refuse to acknowledge God and on those who refuse to respond to the Good News about our Lord Jesus. 2 thess. 1:8
And in some versions of the bible it reads:
In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord
Including Hindus and Muslims? And the mentally ill who have murdered?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
There will be no Hindus,Muslims, or any as such in God's Kingdom. Maybe there were some who were at one time, but not now.
So only born again Christians will be there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Wilson
I have no idea how on earth you managed to read that into the passage you quoted, since the two have nothing to do with each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
Of course, both Jesus and Peter also described it as outer darkness, a place of darkness, and Peter spoke of chains. So if this fire is literal, it apparently doesn't produce any light. Or perhaps (gasp!) it's all metaphorical, trying to describe the indescribable.Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
WG,
According to the bible the ONLY people who will be in heaven this side of the cross are those who have called on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to save them. It doesn't matter if it is on death bed or in life... but they are the ONLY ones in heaven. These are not my thoughts but rather what the Lord says in his word.
Dave,
Or maybe it is a real place that has flaming fire which causes no light. I can't explain it but hen I can't explain a God in three persons.. I believe it by faith.
So they will be rattling around in all that space in heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Wg,
? I don't know what that means.
By your definition, there are very few who will qualify.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
WG,
MY definition? Wow... not mine at all. I said before his grace is bigger than we think. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if somehow someway the Lord was able to reach a person between the moment the person leaves their body to enter enternity. I don't have proof nor do I have scripture to back my belief... I just know my Jesus.
Well, now. You are finally coming around to my way of thinking. Never build fences around God or squish Him into a box of your own making.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
WG,
I don't have proof of that and I can't back it up. I just really believe in his grace and mercy. He isn't willing that any should perish, and I think he will do everything to save someone. He has proved his love for us. BUT Jesus is the one that said he was the ONLY way to the Father. I haven't put God in a box or squished him. But NO ONE is going to be there without calling out to HIM and that is just a fact of the bible.
Behold now is the accepted time, behold NOW is the day of salvation. I do not think anyone to wait to see if the Lord will meet them between death of the body and the beginning of eternity for the soul and spirit. I just wouldn't be surprised to find out that Jesus did everything to reach people.
John 14:6.
Jesus said ". Behold , I am the way , the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the father but by me.
Note he said THE way , THE truth and THE life. There is no other way , there is no other truth and there is no other ( eternal ) life.
And than... NO man cometh unto the father but by ME.
Speaking to all of mankind , no man will see God in heaven unless he accepts Jesus as his Saviour first.
This is all done on Gods terms , not by any person. From the Pope to the thief on the cross ( who accepted Jesus with a very short time left to live) , we all are sinners and are not good enough on our own to reach heaven.
Romans 3:10. There is none righteous , no not one. We are born with a sin nature.
You never have to teach any child ( or adult) how to do bad things. They do that naturally. But you do have to teach , teach and teach again for them to do the right thing.
As Christians why would we just assume anybody and everybody is going to go to Heaven? It's not just about Christ's atonement... it's about our choice. The two go hand in hand. Yes, He paid the price for everyone, but that doesn't mean everyone receives it. There are many that reject it.
We're not the ones saying that Heaven will be relatively empty... JESUS said it...
Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Mcsap (and others) - you continually claim that Jesus SAID, or God SAID, but you have no way of knowing what Jesus or God SAID.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcsap9213
What you DO have is a collection of about 70 books written by as many authors over maybe 5-600 years, often contradictory, from which you presume to quote Jesus and/or God.
Do you have a special revelation? Do you have Jesus' voice on tape? I doubt it. Perhaps you should modify your absoluteness with something like "I believe". Your credibility would be enhanced by your honesty in this matter.
Unlike you, other Christians here, who are just as Christian as you, struggle to understand what the Bible says/means in light of language, culture, the times, and other factors. They use their God-given faculties of mind to wrestle out meaning and do their best to avoid being trapped in a prison of mindless word-for-word literalness.
Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. Everything else is a footnote.
Curtis,
Not sure I even understand what that means exactly. You are big into this earthly view and heavenly view. I understand that there are spirtual truths that we should study and comprehend. Exactly how do you suggest a person exercise his spirtual senses. I don't think that you are wrong so much as I don't get your point.
Ok, that was weird... that post to curtis should be in another thread. Can you fix that WG?
ATHOS
Oh my how I have missed you. When will I be receiving my reddie. I haven't had one since the last time you stop by these threads. Ha ha... seriously though, back off mcsap. He/she is new here. I believe every word in the bible by faith even if I don't understand it and I am betting that Mcsap does to. Nothing wrong with that. I believe it by faith because without faith it is impossible to please God. If he can create a universe from nothing.. I am not to worried about him preserving his Word to us.
If you have faith in God , you will then learn that the entire Bible ( while written by MANY different men over a long period of time) was inspired by God. Sure , Matthew , Mark , Luke and John each wrote a book but they were doing based upon God given direction.
You eithe believe that the entire Bible is " God breathed" or you don't. Again , just like the choice to accept or refuse the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ... believing in the word of God is just as important.
2 Timothy 3:16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine , for reproof , for correction for instruction in righteous.
God is big enough to accomplish this. Our minds have such a hard time understanding how anyone could ever do this. And our minds are right on this one. It isn't man , it is Almighty God. We cannot begin to understand everything there is to know about God. He was , is and will be.
No other " diety " voluntarily came to earth as a lowly man. Was born of a woman but was not fathered by a man. Grew up as a child and became a man. Spent 3 years preaching and teaching , performing miracles and changing lives. He was falsely accused and was executed as a perfectly innocent man. But he wasn't just a man. He was as much God as he was a man and he was as much a man as he was a God.
He was God robed in human flesh. He knew that none of us were perfect and that none of us could join him in heaven due to our sin. No man could ever pay of his own sins much less those of all of the world. He then offered himself as a living sacrifice to pay for our sins with his blood.
He died as a man but was resurrected on he third day and now is preparing a place for those who love him and have accepted him. He has also prepared a place for those who don't love him and reject him.
A great book on this is titled " Evidence that demands a verdict".
Jesus IS the ONLY way to God.
Not Hindu , Bhuddist , Muslim etc. Not Baptist , Methodist , Presbyterian etc. Going to a church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than standing in a garage will make you a car. It is a personal decision based on your acknowledgement that you are a sinner , that you cannot ever save yourself and that you want Jesus to come into your life and wash away your sins with his blood.
It is that easy. Yet it must be sincere and works are an evidence of faith. One cannot claim to be saved on Thursday and than go back to their same sun filled life on Friday with no apparent inner or outer change. Not everyone gets " hit with a bolt of lightning" but to accept the Lord will result in the Holy Spirit living in you and you will suddenly have a guilty conscience when you sin.
You just won't find your old lifestyle to be so much fun anymore.
God has a plan for everyone who accepts him. He wants nobody to perish in eternity but his justice does not allow sin to remain in his presence. Choosing to reject him in this life means you will suffer permanently in the next. But , God still gives you the choice to do what YOU want to do.
Choose wisely.
Just Jesus who died on the cross and is eagerly waiting for you to accept his free gift.
Though off the subject of 'eternal death', the 'Evidence that Demands a Verdict Books (Vol. 1 and 2) are great. I think you're bring a lot of good stuff to the table here Mcsap.
Wow. What's the view like from that simplistic world of yours? There are a lot of us here, myself included, who have spent our lives wrestling with the difficult questions about the Bible, including the ones that Athos raised. Including the question of those who have never heard. Including the apparent contradictions, anachronisms, textually uncertain passages and all the rest that goes into biblical scholarship. I pray that you learn a little more about real interaction with the Bible before God brings you to your crisis point. Because as things stand right now, when you reach that point, your faith won't be ready for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
Really? The person is new here. He/she doesn't understand that being a fundalmentalist is prohibited and ridiculed here. At least wait a few more post to pounce... just saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
When someone receives a revelation from God the father of who Jesus is, and then they confess Jesus Christ as Lord, they become born again. At that moment they receive a new heart, born of the incorruptible seed of the Word of God. A new nature that is different from before, with new senses that can contact the spiritual world. In exactly the same way as your physical senses contact the physical world. But these senses need to be exercised to be able to discern good and evil. A new born baby does not know how to control there arms, legs, vision (senses). It takes time to to learn, and exercise these things. After awhile they get very good at controlling them. It is no different for a new born Christian, to do like wise. The Apostle Paul in the Book of Hebrews says the same thing,
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
If we never exercise these spiritual senses then apathy sets in, and then the only thing that is real to you is what your 5 physical senses tell you. The Kingdom of God then becomes just something way out in the bye and bye, something that will happen in the future. This is nothing new, we should have learned these things along time ago. But it is still not to late to begin now. We have the ability to see, taste, feel, hear, touch his Kingdom today. Lets lay hold upon eternal life.
Curtis
If you were born into a Hindu or Muslim family/culture, would you convert to Christianity?Quote:
Originally Posted by hauntinghelper
Curtis,
I actually meant my response to you to be in another thread... I don't know what happened. I will respond to this post in your other thread.
Meanwhile, rhetorically speaking, what are you doing to show God's unconditional love to others?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcsap9213
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