On that we agree. But you wrote "This should give you scientific proof of a creator!" and the writer of the article postulated that as well. So you kind of contradicted yourself there.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
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On that we agree. But you wrote "This should give you scientific proof of a creator!" and the writer of the article postulated that as well. So you kind of contradicted yourself there.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
I'm right there with you that the mystery makes me inclined to believe rather than not believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
But you have to (or should) accept that those with more scientific thinking patterns or inclined to logical deduction don't think the same way.
"Cannot Disprove"="Necessarily Is True" isn't the way that science works. The scientific method would break down using that process. Do I personally think it's a rigid and boring way of thinking? Sure. But I am grateful for all that HAS been discovered and uncovered via science.
Trust me, I used to argue it all the time with Atheists who asked me to PROVE my God. I used to say "You DISPROVE it!" Now I understand how that's not really a reasonable rebuttle. Not that their original request is very productive either.
Some people are inclined to believe in something unprovable. Others aren't. Shouldn't that be okay?
Where it gets even MORE fun is the "My god is real, but YOURS is fake" argument.
OBVIOUSLY there is no proof that anyone's god is the ONLY god, assuming that there IS a god to begin with. But there are quite a few circular arguments that try to prove that God or YHWH or Zeus or Allah or whoever is the ONLY god and that everyone else is WRONG and EVIL and is going to HELL because of it.
What kills me is that the same people that believe so vehemently can't understand how someone else believes in their own god so vehemently---and they're the SAME people who don't understand that we will NEVER have peace in this world until they admit that their god is the only god for THEM. NOT for everyone--just for them. How many wars could be averted if EVERYONE would just admit that their god is not everyone's god?
That was actually sawsall02, not me. But I forgive you ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
You're right of course, my apologies.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
southamerica,
Sure, I have no problem with people wanting to believe a different way. But my usual response to those who say "I would have see proof" is "How much proof would it take?" The subtle answer inherent in most of the answers I get is "Just a little bit more than you or anybody else might be able to come up with." If we somehow managed to stick God in a lab and do repeatable empirical tests on him, there would always be those who claimed the tests were faked. That's why I don't even bother trying to support, cite or even find proofs. I go with probabilities, nothing more. If others see those probabilities in a different way, cool. The only time I will push my beliefs is when I'm asked, or when someone else brings the subject up, as in a thread like this. And even then I'll do my best to remain respectful (not always successful, but I'll try).
Now to this:
The answer to your question, as often as not, is simple logic: a thing can't be X and not-X at the same time. Certain views of God just contradict each other. The Jewish God is a single entity and a unified whole; the Christian God is a single God who manifests in three persons. Those are contradictory. In the Christian view, Jesus of Nazareth is one of those persons. In Islam, he isn't. Those are contradictory. In the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition there's one God; in several eastern traditions there's more than one, perhaps even a whole bunch. They can't all be right, any more than you can be a human and a rabbit at the same time depending on who's looking at you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Speaking as a Christian, I believe those other views of God/gods are wrong. There's no good way around it without being internally contradictory. The peaceful solution to the problem is not admitting that God might be something different for the Hindu than he is for me; the solution is both me and the Hindu agreeing to respect each other's viewpoint, even though he thinks I'm wrong and I think he's wrong. In other words, agree to disagree, now let's go play a round of golf or something instead of fighting. If we could all learn to do that, we might have a certain amount of peace in the world. The answer isn't changing God, but changing ourselves.
dwashbur--
Sure, agreeing to disagree works FINE--if you leave religion in the realm of religion and keep it out of the secular world.
But when RELIGION is what pushes laws into existance--whether that law is that a woman is stoned to death because she talked to a man outside of her family or the law is that gays cannot marry because the Bible said so--that's when peace is disrupted.
The answer IS changing ourselves--but the change means accepting that YOUR god (or MY goddess, if you prefer) can not and should not dictate how EVERYONE should live. After all, I don't want to have to wear a veil and clothing that covers me from head to toe--yet in some parts of the world, RELIGION dictates a LAW that I must do so.
When we can accept that any god's word is law within the religion, and YOU are free to live your daily life by those laws dictated by your religion but do not try to make them the laws of your country (or the world!), THEN we can live in peace.
But until we can accept that some people believe in gay marriage (for example) and some people don't, and the ONLY way to dictate whether it should be legal should be based on SECULAR reasons, and NEVER on RELIGIOUS reasons--well, we'll always have wars, and it will always be about religion.
PS---I want to point out that I was responding to you, dwashbur, but the "you" in my post was meant to be generic.
I re-read after posting and it looks a little like I'm pointing fingers, and I absolutely did not intend my post to come across that way.
My apologies if it was taken that way.
History is replete with other reasons for wars, but I'll let that pass. All in all, I agree with you. There are certain "universals" that span most religions, that deal with things like murder, theft, a few others. But when it gets down to what people can wear, who they can marry, how long their hair can be, and that sort of thing, yes, that's going too far. It's especially true in a pluralistic society like we have in America.
Some of those countries that require veils and all that, though, have those laws because the people affected embrace them. What do you suggest in that case? And if they bring those practices - or laws, to them - to a different country, what's our attitude to be? Example: my next door neighbor's wife wears a burka whenever she goes outside. To me it looks ridiculous, not to mention sweltering depending on the temperature outside, but to her it's a requirement. Sometimes I see women in that position and I want to grab their husbands by the collar and say "Dude, you're in AMERICA! Learn a little flexibility!" But that would be rather asinine, agreed? In their religious tradition it's something they have to do. So I keep my nose out of it, and just give my pleasant greetings when I see them.
Now, if they came over to my place and started telling my daughters that they have to wear those things too, then we might have a problem.
I do believe I have descended into rambling, so I'll stop now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Hi all,
Here is a very good website that proves God exists, in which I stumbled across.
Proofthatgodexists.com
P.S. sorry, I don't know how to highlight this site so you can just click on it. I'm a little computer illiterate.
Wow, one of the most frustrating websites I've ever seen, you click on buttons that bring you back to the same place all the time. Not sure what that proves.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawsall02
That link doesn't bring up a website, it says the domain is for sale.
Am I doing something wrong?
Maybe: Desire to prove God exists =/= Good web developer.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
That's my attempt at a "not equal to" sign.
Sorry, but there is no concrete irrefutable proof that God exists. Any attempts to do so have to be based, at least, in part, on faith in the Bible. One can present arguments and logic all day long, but it still boils down to a matter of faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawsall02
How did you come to that conclusion?
Sawsall, how do you find any "proof" on that site? It's just a bunch of ads.
That's what faith is all about. There is no proof that God exists.
You should read the "Quotes" page, it's totally geared to the fanatically adherent, not to a site that is trying to prove that god exists. Some of the quotes are actually offensive to those who don't share the same faith.
Try again, Wondergirl; You must have been on the wrong site. There are no ads.[URL="proofthatgodexists.org"]
Or do a Yahoo search, It's the link at top of page.
How did you come to that conclusion?
If are thought's are RANDOM proccesses, how can you come to ANY conclusion?
No, I was not wrong. You were. I used the link you gave. Now you are saying it is dot org, not dot com -- big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawsall02
That site's conclusion that God exists is that you first have to be a Christian:
"The argument is that you must borrow from the Christian worldview, and a God who makes universal, immaterial, unchanging laws possible in order to prove anything.
This type of logical proof deals with 'transcendentals' or 'necessary starting points,' and the proof is called a 'transcendental proof.' Any contrary view to the God of Christianity being the necessary starting point for rationality is reduced to absurdity. You have to assume God in order to argue against Him. Only the Christian worldview can logically support rationality."
Sorry Wondergirl, I was wrong it is: proofthatgodexists.org
Thoughts are not random. I made the thought and came to a conclusion. Is it not the same for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by sawsall02
Correct!
Thus, if you are not a Christian, there is no proof of God nor can anyone prove there is a God.
You have to be a Christian first -- which makes the whole exercise on the site stupid and worthless.
In other words, the site owner is preaching to the choir and not proving anything.
It is unnerving and ironic that one of the buttons sets a fallacious argument about molesting children for fun is morally wrong given the unsavoury reputation of some priests.
That site reminds me of Bob Harrington's old argument for why he believes in God: "Because I want to."Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
That first part with the various buttons about absolute truth is so incredibly stupid I couldn't get any further. You're not helping your case, sawsall. If this kind of gobbledygook is good enough for you, fine. But some of our skeptic friends on this board tend to think a bit deeper than that. I understand what they're trying to say, but they're doing a lousy job of it.
Also, from that site --
"Nobody needs arguments for the existence of God. Nobody needs proof that God exists. The Bible teaches that those who claim that God does not exist are merely suppressing what they already know to be true.
Contrary to how it may appear, this website is in no way trying to prove that God exists."
Is this site owner related to Harold Camping?
Wait---I believe that *A* god exists.
I just don't believe that it is the CHRISTIAN God.
So---I'm denying it because I'm not Christian? What a load of carp!
This is why I hate arguing with Christians about it. They can "prove" that their god exists, but only if I actually believe that their proofs aren't make-believe too. It all comes down to "I'm right and you're wrong" with too many of them, with nothing but their own personal beliefs to back it up.
Sorry--someone in the 2nd century "proved" that the Earth was the center of the universe, too--using some of the same kinds of arguments. That kind of "proof" sucks, frankly, and is taken apart by the first person who actually thinks for themselves rather than being told what to think by a religious leader.
Speaking as a Christian, and a fairly conservative one at that, I have to agree with you. Most of the arguments are, in a word, stupid. There are much better ones, but too many self-appointed apologists either don't take the time or don't have the gray matter to grasp and interact with them. Instead, they take the "easy" road, a la this lame website. I'd be glad to discuss with you how I get from "a" god to the God of Christianity, and I promise to at least pretend to have a brain :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
I'd LOVE to see and be part of such a discussion! Is there a place on this site to have it?Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Members Discussions :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I'm game, are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
I was hoping my comment could encourage you and Dave to start such a discussion. If I start it, no one would show up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
I show up to them when I see them and have a chance to respond--most of the time I'm at work when I'm on AMHD, so it all depends on how busy I am.
Yay!!Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
I can dig that. How about you start a thread when you get a chance, and just let me know how to find it, and we can go from there? My schedule is a lot more open, so I can adapt to yours as necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
Hi WGQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Most transcendental arguments use the starting point of experience. On this basis there does not have to be a 'necessary' or logical starting point so long as you are trying to deduce something from empirical facts.
In other words, there can be any number of starting points concerning how we think, judge or have experiences generally.
I am not sure what you mean by," Only the Christian worldview can logically support rationality" Taken at face value I would disagree with this statement.
Tut
Tut, please read the entire thread. All of what I quoted was from the web site that had been posted by someone else. They are NOT my thoughts or beliefs. I stated that I found the logic on that site to be absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by TUT317
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